THE BACHELORETTE - SEASON 12 - JOJO FLETCHER - **NO SPOILERS** - Episode Discussion - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION #2

Hmmm...with this^ I'm wondering if Robby is also in the running for next lead. They might be cushioning him for any backlash that may come up if he is chosen? Just a thought.

aviej wrote:Well, if we are to judge from CH's blog, there's definitely more hype for Luke. I don't think Robby is even being considered because of the WER and ex gf issues. At this stage of the show they'd want someone with a squeaky clean image a la Ben. I think how Luke and Chase exit the show, the audience response and their "interview" at the MTA will be the deciding factors. Ben's storyline was being unloveable. For Chase, it's being scared to open up. For Luke, I just don't know yet. And JoJo hints at that in the preview to the HTD. She questions whether he has emotional depth. So maybe that'll be what sends him home?

I'm having a hard time understanding anyone questioning Luke's emotional depth...he told her on the first 1:1 that he's that much more in touch with his emotions after military service, that they are at the forefront of his mind, etc...and then proceeds to build a heart out of flower petals and tell her she has his! So I think it might be JoJo who is missing the emotional depth with Luke (because she's too busy chasing emotional depth with Jordy?).

Well said agent, thank you! Her comment came out of left field, didn't make sense after all she's said about him previously! Call me confused. Maybe she's wanting a 'real' commitment, an I love you to seal the deal for her, who knows. All I know, if Luke has an ex make some kind of an appearance, I'm done!    Will we all be seeing some doubt thrown toward Luke finally...can't see it after that heartfelt 'my heart is yours'.

I'll take Luke's emotional depth over Jordan's any day.

Lost17 wrote:Well said agent, thank you! Her comment came out of left field, didn't make sense after all she's said about him previously! Call me confused. Maybe she's wanting a 'real' commitment, an I love you to seal the deal for her, who knows. All I know, if Luke has an ex make some kind of an appearance, I'm done!    Will we all be seeing some doubt thrown toward Luke finally...can't see it after that heartfelt 'my heart is yours'.

I'll take Luke's emotional depth over Jordan's any day.

AS they say, Talk is cheap! Does she not realize that? If you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk. I know some are happy with Jorjo, but I think Jordan is giving JoJo bare bones type of affection and BL, in my eyes anyway. I was hoping she would want more and she should, imo.

I second that! Chase and Luke both show JoJo what love is supposed to look and feel like. But if she has never experienced it and it makes her feel uneasy, she may reject it. 

Agentcurls and Lost, got to hand it to you both - loyal to Luke and Chase til the end.  

But, Agentcurls, I have to laugh at your comment about Robby - how he might be in the running for the next lead so they are cushioning him against backlash. I disagree. They are cushioning the couple - Jojo and Robby - against backlash and also throwing in a storyline arc/obstacle for the Spumoni. It goes along with the theme of truth and lies/who can you trust.

That comment from Jojo about Luke's emotional depth struck me as odd, too. Seemed to be showing lots of emotional depth IMO. Perhaps, in her eyes, the emotional connection has plateaued and is fading somewhat (compared to the others). To me, I think it is the small town thing that she doesn't want, but she cannot say that out loud because he's likely to be the next lead (so don't point out another negative that is a demographic).  

No thoughts on the Robby preview? I think that Jojo and Robby's personalities are a lot alike. Both sensitive and caring, probably give people the benefit of the doubt, see the best in others way too long. Bad people take advantage of people like Jojo and Robby.

Is there still no convincing you to even fathom the possibility that Robby is the F1?

^^ Mia, nope! Are we the club , we're all convinced it's our guy and probably will until that last rose is handed out.

To me, Luke has displayed a great deal of emotional depth and connection with Jojo. I seem to recall that she said that he's very articulate (perhaps the most articulate of the F4?) That tells me that he has no problem finding the words to talk about whatever is on his mind. The only one that I have a concern about in that regard is Chase -- I think he's lagging somewhat behind the others in his feelings and in the expression of them.

Mia, I'm not totally ruling Robby out as F1. It's just that if I had to put some money on it at this point of the game, it would be on Jordan. And saying that doesn't give me any pleasure.

For whatever reason, I've had no luck bringing up the Robby HTD preview. It's also on the ABC site in the Videos section:

http://abc.go.com/shows/the-bachelorette/video/most-recent/vdka3260510

The ABC site is safe to view. I just can't see it!  

MiaHawk wrote:Agentcurls and Lost, got to hand it to you both - loyal to Luke and Chase til the end.  

But, Agentcurls, I have to laugh at your comment about Robby - how he might be in the running for the next lead so they are cushioning him against backlash. I disagree. They are cushioning the couple - Jojo and Robby - against backlash and also throwing in a storyline arc/obstacle for the Spumoni. It goes along with the theme of truth and lies/who can you trust.

That comment from Jojo about Luke's emotional depth struck me as odd, too. Seemed to be showing lots of emotional depth IMO. Perhaps, in her eyes, the emotional connection has plateaued and is fading somewhat (compared to the others). To me, I think it is the small town thing that she doesn't want, but she cannot say that out loud because he's likely to be the next lead (so don't point out another negative that is a demographic).  

No thoughts on the Robby preview? I think that Jojo and Robby's personalities are a lot alike. Both sensitive and caring, probably give people the benefit of the doubt, see the best in others way too long. Bad people take advantage of people like Jojo and Robby.

Is there still no convincing you to even fathom the possibility that Robby is the F1?

The emotional depth thing is questionable to me too. I think that was a set up for his giving his heart to her later that day. I think that Luke is trying to make their relationship progress as it would IRL. He feels that saying ILY is an important milestone in their progression, and as he is looking at forever with her, he wants it to be memorable. She is Ms Right Now and afraid it might not happen because it hasnt happened yet. He has as much told her, just hasnt use the three words she needs to hear.

What was said that makes us believe Robby sees the best in people way too long? We dont know what happened in that relationship and in any relationship there always two sides to every story. Robby is now getting to tell his side. My biggest objection to Robby is who he hangs with.....I guess the birds of a feather thing.

It makes me wonder where all of these rumors come from. Do the guys talk and then someone throws them under the bus? Do the producers spread stuff to stir the pot? Case in point, how did everyone know that Jordy is Aaron's brother? Did he give up that info trying to play off of his brother's name? I have tried so hard to like Jordan since JoJo chases him so fervently and I want her to have her happy ending. But I just can't.

[quote="moonchild"]
What was said that makes us believe Robby sees the best in people way too long?  We dont know what happened in that relationship and in any relationship there always two sides to every story.  Robby is now getting to tell his side.

^To the bolded above:  What was said that makes us believe Robby sees the best in people way too long?

This is how I see it, and as an unspoiled viewer, I only have what was aired to go by...

The facts (according to Robby) that have been aired regrading his past relationship in epi 1 thru that new preview:

1) It was a 3+ year relationship that his family did not think suited Robby. I feel that dating for 3+ years is a significant amount of time for a 27 year old. (long time)

2) Even though he heard this negative feedback from his family, he continued the relationship, until such time that he also came to the same conclusion. He did not break up with her right away. He took the concerns to heart and probably made additional observations and interpretations of their compatibility before ending it. (over time)

3) In 3+ years he was never invited to her family home and only met her mother once. This did not sit well with him, as he is a self-described 'family man'. (He probably hoped that things would change over time and he would be invited to partake in her family occasions, etc, but after 3+ years things never improved to his liking. (long time)

4) After the death of his good friend, Robby re-evaluated his life and made several changes. He was in a long-term relationship that he was 'always questioning' (his description during SD dinner...always implies that this occurred over a period of time). (too long)

5) During the Dec holidays Robby and the ex had a big argument and broke up for good. He said he was actually grateful for this argument, a blow up so big that there was no recovering from it, because it was a final break, no going back. In other words, there is no doubt in his mind that they needed to break up. (It was a long time coming, not a spur of the moment thing)

6) On GD we see Robby directly and decisively say he broke up 4.5 mo ago and he is completely over the ex. (Many times before a couple parts ways physically, they have already parted ways emotionally and mentally. I believe this was the case with them. The disintegration of the relationship occurred over time, just like with most people ).

7) When asked by Jojo to describe what was wrong (in the eyes of Robby's father) with the ex. He hesitates to throw the ex under the bus. Instead, he chooses to tell Jojo that she and their growing relationship are his priority. After he says "I am ready for this, for you, for us" on the bench, you can see that the footage is spliced (his jaw moves) and he must have said something else that makes her slightly smile and rub his shoulder. When the camera pans back to Robby there is, what I believe to be, a tear beneath his right eye. He has never run from a question, but he also did not immediately revel in the opportunity to throw the ex under the bus. If he had still been emotionally invested or angry/hurt from the break up, I would think that he wouldn't hesitate to say something negative about the ex (in essence to blame her or criticize her). It was only after Jojo pressed him for details that he mentioned the house/mother thing. There is a reflective quality to how he spoke about that past relationship. He said he was grateful for the break up. Only people who have moved on would say such a thing. An emotional person by nature might hold onto pain or hurt longer than a pragmatist. I saw no pain only discomfort in discussing it on tv. (Time heals all wounds)    

8) In the preview we see Robby's Mom telling him that there are rumors out there started by the ex's roommate. We see his mother wanting to warn him, yet she begins to say "the people that.." which I think she was going to finish with ..."know you, know it isn't true." But, Robby interjects that it is Jojo's reaction that he is worried about. He is confident in himself and in his family's and friends' reaction to this rumor, because they know the truth. He is, however, worried that Jojo will fall for these lies. The conversation with his mother shows me that it was common knowledge amongst his family that the break up was a bad one and that the ex (and her camp) are lashing out for revenge. (Mother saw over time the character of the ex-gf. This seems to be just another 'negative variable' in the list of negative variables that the family became aware of over time.)  

All of the facts above make me believe that the decision to break up/ the reason that they had a blow up argument was the realization that they were not compatible for the long haul. He wanted different things than her. He wanted a family-centered life, and she did not. Or if she did want a family-centered life for herself, that did not seem to include Robby in it.

So, I conclude from the facts above that Robby tried to make it work for 3+ years and in the end they were not compatible. She was not the right match for him. Perhaps she felt he was not the right match for him. He gave her the benefit of the doubt (and perhaps she gave him the benefit of the doubt). And after 3+ years they finally threw in the towel. He moved on with life and went on the show to meet Jojo, someone whom he thought he might be compatible. She and her roommate decided that the best way for them to get over it was to publicly trash talk Robby to people and online. One chose Love, the other Hate. JMHOAA.

I don't know these people, and I don't know all of the facts IRL of who they are and what occurred between them. I, personally, just see a man whose friend died and he decided that life is too short to settle for a relationship and a partner who doesn't seem to be on the same page on you. I'm not saying that 'the page' the ex wanted is wrong, but it appears that it was wrong for Robby. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that Robby is perfect and did everything in his life perfectly. There are 2 sides to every story. But, today, since I an unspoiled I have only heard Robby's, and I choose to believe him. That is my choice. Every one is free to decide for themselves. I guess if I heard some one say that they decided NOT to believe the facts that have aired via Robby, I would just pose the same question to them: Why do you choose to believe what you believe? A fitting question for a season whose them seems to be this very question.[/b]

MiaHawk wrote:

moonchild wrote:
What was said that makes us believe Robby sees the best in people way too long?  We dont know what happened in that relationship and in any relationship there always two sides to every story.  Robby is now getting to tell his side.

^To the bolded above:  What was said that makes us believe Robby sees the best in people way too long?

This is how I see it, and as an unspoiled viewer, I only have what was aired to go by...

The facts (according to Robby) that have been aired regrading his past relationship in epi 1 thru that new preview:

1) It was a 3+ year relationship that his family did not think suited Robby. I feel that dating for 3+ years is a significant amount of time for a 27 year old. (long time)

2) Even though he heard this negative feedback from his family, he continued the relationship, until such time that he also came to the same conclusion. He did not break up with her right away. He took the concerns to heart and probably made additional observations and interpretations of their compatibility before ending it. (over time)

3) In 3+ years he was never invited to her family home and only met her mother once. This did not sit well with him, as his is a self-described 'family man'. (He probably hoped that things would change over time and he would be invited to partake in her family occasions, etc, but after 3+ years things never improved to his liking. (long time)

4) After the death of his good friend, Robby re-evaluated his life and made several changes. He was in a long-term relationship that he was 'always questioning' (his description during SD dinner...always implies that this occurred over a period of time). (too long)

5) During the Dec holidays Robby and the ex had a big argument and broke up for good. He said he was actually grateful for this argument, a blow up so big that there was no recovering from it, because it was a final break, no going back. In other words, there is no doubt in his mind that they needed to break up. (It was a long time coming, not a spur of the moment thing)

6) On GD we see Robby directly and decisively say he broke up 4.5 mo ago and he is completely over the ex. (Many times before a couple parts ways physically, they have already parted ways emotionally and mentally. I believe this was the case with them. The disintegration of the relationship occurred over time, just like with most people ).

7) When asked by Jojo to describe what was wrong (in the eyes of Robby's father) with the ex. He hesitates to throw the ex under the bus. Instead, he chooses to tell Jojo that she and their growing relationship are his priority. After he says "I am ready for this, for you, for us" on the bench, you can see that the footage is spliced (his jaw moves) and he must have said something else that makes her slightly smile and rub his shoulder. When the camera pans back to Robby there is, what I believe to be, a tear beneath his right eye. He has never run from a question, but he also did not immediately revel in the opportunity to throw the ex under the bus. If he had still been emotionally invested or angry/hurt from the break up, I would think that he wouldn't hesitate to say something negative about the ex (in essence to blame her or criticize her). It was only after Jojo pressed him for details that he mentioned the house/mother thing. There is a reflective quality to how he spoke about that past relationship. He said he was grateful for the break up. Only people who have moved on would say such a thing. An emotional person by nature might hold onto pain or hurt longer than a pragmatist. I saw no pain only discomfort in discussing it on tv. (Time heals all wounds)    

8) In the preview we see Robby's Mom telling him that there are rumors out there started by the ex's roommate. We see his mother wanting to warn him, yet she begins to say "the people that.." which I think she was going to finish with ..."know you, know it isn't true." But, Robby interjects that it is Jojo's reaction that he is worried about. He is confident in himself and in his family's and friends' reaction to this rumor, because they know the truth. He is, however, worried that Jojo will fall for these lies. The conversation with his mother shows me that it was common knowledge amongst his family that the break up was a bad one and that the ex (and her camp) are lashing out for revenge. (Mother saw over time the character of the ex-gf. This seems to be just another 'negative variable' in the list of negative variables that the family became aware of over time.)  

All of the facts above make me believe that the decision to break up/ the reason that they had a blow up argument was the realization that they were not compatible for the long haul. He wanted different things than her. He wanted a family-centered life, and she did not. Or if she did want a family-centered life for herself, that did not seem to include Robby in it.

So, I conclude from the facts above that Robby tried to make it work for 3+ years and in the end they were not compatible. She was not the right match for him. Perhaps she felt he was not the right match for him. He gave her the benefit of the doubt (and perhaps she gave him the benefit of the doubt). And after 3+ years they finally threw in the towel. He moved on with life and went on the show to meet Jojo, someone whom he thought he might be compatible. She and her roommate decided that the best way for them to get over it was to publicly trash talk Robby to people and online. One chose Love, the other Hate. JMHOAA.

I don't know these people, and I don't know all of the facts IRL of who they are and what occurred between them. I, personally, just see a man whose friend died and he decided that life is too short to settle for a relationship and a partner who doesn't seem to be on the same page on you. I'm not saying that 'the page' the ex wanted is wrong, but it appears that it was wrong for Robby. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that Robby is perfect and did everything in his life perfectly. There are 2 sides to every story. But, today, since I an unspoiled I have only heard Robby's, and I choose to believe him. That is my choice. Every one is free to decide for themselves. I guess if I heard some one say that they decided NOT to believe the facts that have aired via Robby, I would just pose the same question to them: Why to you choose to believe what you believe? A fitting question for a season whose them seems to be this very question.[/b]

I admire your passion for Robby, Mia! I hope Robby knows he has such a loyal fan!

^ Thanks.

As to the Birds of a feather...(I assume you are referring to Jordan?)

I think that sometimes when the guys arrive in the same limo on night one, it creates a sort of bond. I think that is why Robby, Jordan, Alex, and some others were tight. They also had the common bond from their dislike of Chad for several weeks. And while Robby certainly did not like Chad (and made comments ITM) he never got involved in the Chad drama in the house (on air). When Derek confronted 'the clique', Jordan was seen trying to put Derek in his place. Robby never said a word (on air). As the numbers dwindle, who is there to hang with? The reason that Robby and Jordan went to the spa together was because they were the only 2 guys left in the hotel that day. It seems to me that other than Derek who called them a clique, nobody else voiced negative comments about Robby, with one exception (the VO of Alex, I think, saying that Robby is a lying fake). So, if you're going to apply the Birds of a feather thing to Robby, I also think you need to apply it to Chase, JT, and Luke - they have hung out with Jordan just as much as Robby has.

Mia, I think your comments about Robby and his breakup are very insightful. His relationship reminds me of a 3-year relationship that I once had, where I realized over time that the compatibility wasn't there, and we came to a natural parting of the ways. My boyfriend was ready to move back to the west coast, and I knew that I was not committed enough to the relationship to follow him. This came as a surprise to him, although I don't think it should have. It took me about 6 months to get over it, so 4.5 for Robby doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me.

For me, the process of emotional recovery included learning how to go to other people once again for a sounding board, feedback, and companionship, as opposed to relying mostly on my boyfriend. I also had to relearn what it was like to be just myself once again instead of part of a couple.

I imagine for Robby it might have been very helpful to be part of the large household of men on the Bachelorette. You have built-in companionship. Especially in the first few weeks, they probably spend a lot more time with each other than they spend with Jojo. And in the early stages, the guys have to figure that their chances of actually ending up with the girl are a longshot at best. What else is there to do but bond with each other?

My experience of men is that they tend to bounce back from a former relationship rather quickly. For most, once they are finished with a relationship, they are *done,* and ready to move on in short order.