THE BACHELORETTE - SEASON 12 - JOJO FLETCHER - **NO SPOILERS** - Episode Discussion - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION #2

Hooked wrote:to veg_out, I'm sorry, I don't understand what I did wrong as I just agreed with a post.  Surely that's not spoiling?  I'm not a spoiler or an unspoiler, I'm just interested in the show and occasionally like to comment.   I obviously don't get the rules - it's too complicated for me so I won't post any more comments.  All good.

Hooked, I understand your confusion, and thank you for explaining it to me. This year, the mods set a new rule that no spoiled poster can post in the unspoiled forum. It means that spoiled posters unfortunately can't even post commentary or agreeing posts.

The unspoiled forum means that we don't know anything that happens unless we see it in the season preview, episode preview, and have sleuthed it to prove it happens.

When you're unspoiled, any post can be overanalyzed to mean something.  

I hope that helps explain it better. Very soon, we'll all happily join the spoiled side--I look so forward to Aug. 2!

Thanks for explaining veg_out. I'll just stick to reading from now on and hope that Jojo finds her match at the end.

Regarding the HTDs, I'm going to put my UnReal glasses on for a moment.

Two possibilities with Luke's HTD:
1. Luke and JoJo's relationship started to fizzle as things with Jordan start to solidify. The HTD thus is less about them spending more 1:1 time together.
2. Luke was identified from pre-season by TPTB as the next lead, or they decided on him mid-season. His HTD is about showcasing his life in Burnet and his family and his romanticism to the public. I think of Chris S's HTD with Andy.

I also see producer gloves all over the other HTDs except Jordan's. TPTB had to show the reason that Robby is in the F2 and start building the story that Jo fell in love with two men, so they introduce the gf drama, forcing an intense discussion. In this HTD, we also have JoJo say that she's starting to fall in love with him to his mom.

Jordan's date was the most untouched, IMO, except for the last scene of them on the bench.

Mia, thanks for explaining your reasoning behind thinking that Chase is cut at FSDs. That logic makes sense to me. Chase is also the only guy who pushes back with JoJo and gets her riled up like what we see when she says, "I don't know what I'm doing." If she decides at dinner that she's not going to give him the FS card, that's probably the best time and place to cut him loose. It would make it very clear to him that it's the end of the road for him and allow him not to get more invested. That will be a sad episode.

PM was sent to Hooked to clarify the situation. 
Apologies to those involved.

Trista did not go to the FS with her F3 guy. It's been done before.
Emily M claimed not to have gone to the FS with her F2, but we all know that was a big fat lie.

I think all of the clips I mentioned (Jojo alone and upset in navy dress/romper, van pulling away) all take place at night. Therefore, I don't think it's after the RC. RC typically takes place during the day in the FD episode, right? The day after the lead has had all 3 dates, right? So this leads me to think that Jojo did the kind thing and sent Chase home prior to FS portion.

veg_out wrote:Regarding the HTDs, I'm going to put my UnReal glasses on for a moment.

Two possibilities with Luke's HTD:
1. Luke and JoJo's relationship started to fizzle as things with Jordan start to solidify. The HTD thus is less about them spending more 1:1 time together.
2. Luke was identified from pre-season by TPTB as the next lead, or they decided on him mid-season. His HTD is about showcasing his life in Burnet and his family and his romanticism to the public. I think of Chris S's HTD with Andy.

I also see producer gloves all over the other HTDs except Jordan's. TPTB had to show the reason that Robby is in the F2 and start building the story that Jo fell in love with two men, so they introduce the gf drama, forcing an intense discussion. In this HTD, we also have JoJo say that she's starting to fall in love with him to his mom.

Jordan's date was the most untouched, IMO, except for the last scene of them on the bench.

Mia, thanks for explaining your reasoning behind thinking that Chase is cut at FSDs. That logic makes sense to me. Chase is also the only guy who pushes back with JoJo and gets her riled up like what we see when she says, "I don't know what I'm doing." If she decides at dinner that she's not going to give him the FS card, that's probably the best time and place to cut him loose. It would make it very clear to him that it's the end of the road for him and allow him not to get more invested. That will be a sad episode.

Veg, I agree that Luke's HTD was the perfect platform to showcase the next lead. TPTB clearly love Luke. I question if he would make a good lead. He seems to stay true to his convictions and spends a lot of time thinking things through. I cant imagine his handling of

Sorry, accidently hit button!

So many different relationships at once. Dont get me wrong I would love to see a season of him.

The thing to remember about small towns is that you know everyone and everyone knows everything that is going on. It is impossible to invite this one and not invite the other, especially if they are lifelong friends. I think he took this process very seriously once thinking his feelings were real. He really wanted to see how she fit into the world of his childhood and the world they would visit often because of his parents. He is smart enough to know that a "city girl" might not feel comfortable in that environment.

There is a window of opportunity here to show her personal growth. Which seems to be a theme of her season. ....Always going after the bad boys and finally recognizing true love when it's offered to her. I wonder if Luke's dad's words were directed as much to JoJo as they were to Luke, regarding the question of "how do you know the one". He told the story of the beginning of his relationship with his mother.....that he traveled a lot and missed her so much (JoJo says in the preview that she misses him already). That the "one" is the one you cant picture your life without. Does she realize that true love need not be spoken, as Luke believes? She said the thing she wanted out of this is "that one true love".

I also look back on Luke's ITM comment from their concert 1-1. "The funny thing about falling in love, is that it doesn't need to be forced". All I see is her trying to force things with her other relationships. Time will tell.

moonchild wrote:

There is a window of opportunity here to show her personal growth. Which seems to be a theme of her season.  ....Always going after the bad boys and finally recognizing true love when it's offered to her....She said the thing she wanted out of this is "that one true love".

Moon, I agree with the above, and I had expected at the start of the season for her to follow this trajectory. At this point, I don't think, however, that she will. IMO, she is going to choose Jordan if Chase is out and Robby is in the F2. If she eliminates Luke after he tells her he loves her, then Luke's not coming back, IMO.

As I mentioned before, I don't know if Chase, Jordan, Luke, and Robby are good or bad guys in real life. At this point, the only thing that we can really know about them is the way that they are painted by the show. From my perspective, the F4 were grouped into "good" vs. "bad" boys to carry that theme through the season. JoJo continues her trend of choosing bad boys by eliminating Luke and Chase (the good guys) and taking her bad boys to the end.

True growth would be for her to walk away alone, but I don't see that happening unless all three of her F3 do something horrible to her and/or her family disapproves.

Maybe Mia is right: Jordan does something in the next few episodes and she chooses Robby instead. That's really hard for me to wrap my mind around though.

I agree that if she does choose from her F3, it will be Jordan. Sorry, Mia!

I dont use the term bad boy to mean they are bad people but more about what kind of baggage they are bringing into this. As far as I can tell, for Robby, the baggage is just that he had a very recent breakup of a long term relationship. She's been in that position and realized after the fact that it was a mistake to jump quickly into another committed relationship. He didn't help himself by telling her ILY so early in. She is afraid of being rebound girl.

JMO but I think Jordan is carrying more baggage than United Airlines. If she does choose him, I guess we are to believe that the love of a good woman fixes everything or is it that he's just misunderstood. It will be interesting to see if they start making his edit more positive. They haven't started yet with that jab they gave him with his comment about Luke in the hanger. Maybe he is like Courtney, he gives them so much good material that they cant pass on it.

Just a reminder that the DNC starts Monday night. Check your local listing to see if this will affect your Bachelorette viewing times.

Also, my tv guide/dvr description of Monday's episode says that an interruption at the RC shakes things up. If my gut feeling about Chase being eliminated prior to the fantasy suite portion is right, this might mean that CH shows up at RC to tell Robby and Jordan that Chase has already gone home.

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Have any of you ever had this happen?......So, I'm in the shower this morning, daydreaming heavily. When, all of a sudden, I realize that I'm using the shampoo to wash my body!   I guess I was just a wee bit distracted! "By what?" you asked. By the fact that tonight's the Fantasy Dates!!!!! I'm so excited!

We got back from vacation last night and finally had a chance to watch the HTD episode.

I liked Chase's time. To me, his experience on the show was positive no matter the outcome. It would seem he made some personal breakthroughs. I think he will come out of this relatively unscathed. The machine hasn't manhandled him too badly...so yay for that! He probably will be "bubble-heartbroken" tonight, but I suspect his recovery came quickly...based on my looking at his SM. I'll still be drinking my Dark Horse wine even if he's not there finale night.

Once again, Jordan leaves me feeling flat. His expressed emotions just don't match my experience of watching him. He continues to lack authenticity to me. If I heard correctly, the falling out with Aaron sounded like it occurred about two years ago. That matches the timeline with Aaron starting to date Olivia Munn...and so ending his on-again/off-again long time relationship with his hometown girlfriend for good. (She is the sister of Shawntel from Brad's 2.0 season.) Perhaps this is the basis for the falling out...just speculating here.

I enjoyed Robby's HTD, despite the drama. Mia, I think your assessment of Robby's ability to know and share his feeling has been really attractive to JoJo. I do think there has been a lot more to them than we've been able to see. I'd be happy if JoJo ended up with him. I find him a lot more sincere than Jordan...even with his early declaration of love.

Yeah, I do think Luke made the mistake inviting his whole town to the date. I enjoyed seeing him in his element, but JoJo needed more from him. She might have made the mistake of cutting her date in BA short as well. I do think she was well on the Jordan-train by then and was wanting to get on with it in BA.

The questions I'm left with is why have the big melt down/cliff hanger if JoJo is going to turn around and cut Luke anyway? How does that contribute to her love story? I'm still questioning what would cause JoJo to say in her finale goodbye, "What you did to me wasn't right." What in the world could she be referring to?

Right now, my head says Jordan is F1. My heart wants anyone, but him.

Yay! Litta! Welcome Back!

I feel the exact same way about Jordan. I think that part of it is his demeanor/personality. I think in general he is not a very demonstrative person and comes across as kind of the 'playing it cool'/laid back sort. When I saw his mom - who seems lovely and sweet - she was very calm, soft spoken, graceful, eloquent. When I saw his dad - who seems like a nice man - he was very calm, soft spoken, reserved. I think that Jordan can get riled up about things when he wants to - like the drama in the house, or general silliness with the guys - but he just comes across as emotionally detached with Jojo. His facial expressions don't do anything to help his cause either.

Here's an example of the difference between Robby and Jordan:

When Jojo said to Robby that she was nervous about the ex-gf stuff, Robby replies: "You know how I feel about you. It's real. I think I know how you feel about me." Jojo then says, "I trust you" and kisses him. Robby says "Please trust me, please, I won't disappoint you." I don't know how many times you've watched that scene, but I've watched it many times. It is so real, so raw, so vulnerable.

When Jojo said to Jordan on the bench that she was nervous that if she ended up with him that he might not want it for forever, Jordan smirks and turns the question around back onto her "Why wouldn't I?" Instead of answering her concerns with a direct response, first he tries to deflect her question. This is often a technique used when someone is lying and trying to buy time to come up with a response. She shrugs and he says it has only gotten better and better each time. When I watch this scene I don't see much vulnerabilty or investment by him into her.

I also think that Jordan may not have a lot of experience with relationships. We know he didn't have any HS sweetheart. We know he only brought home 1 girl (his most recent ex) 2 years prior. And we heard that the ex-gf did not give him high marks as an attentive boyfriend. I think when she questioned if he was 'ready for this' and ready to get engaged, she is thinking about this. I also tend to think that somebody's conversation in the family may have touched upon this.

Do I think Jordan is a bad guy? No. I see some character traits that have been emphasized by the edit that are unflattering. I don't see depth to his relationship with Jojo. I think he is immature in the romance department. And I do think he has been getting a bad edit. Again...why?

I really have a hard time believing that Robby would 'do something that wasn't right' to her. I cannot even fathom that. Seriously, I will be f***ing shocked if it turns out that Robby did something wrong to her. My family may have to have the psych unit on speed dial if it turns out Robby did something unsavory in Jojo's mind! I may go into catatonic state if it is Robby who is sent home using those words. She says she fell in love with a man who wasn't able to love her back the way that she said she wanted....that is NOT Robby. Robby would lasso the moon for her! And she knows that! THAT is why I cannot fathom Robby as F2. Nope, nope, nope, I just can't.

Therefore, I am left to believe that Jordan does something or he simply can't love her back the way she wants. Which makes complete sense to me, because I don't think he does a good job at connecting with her, validating her, working for her heart. I still think that there may be something uncovered by the Pitbull Brothers that is brought to her attention late in the game that gives her the lightbulb moment and she sends him home as F2. But I also just see Jojo coming to the slow realization that she is into him way more than he is into her, and that it won't work longterm.