THE BACHELORETTE - SEASON 12 - JOJO FLETCHER - **NO SPOILERS** - Episode Discussion - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION #2

moonchild wrote:What is that in the background of the last cap?  It looks like steps of some kind.

I thought it was steps at first, but now I am thinking they are rocks (several oddly shaped grey objects on brown sand). I think the dark spot to left is a shadow where the rock has a jagged shape.

But what is that red line thru the other? I have begun a discussion in the SC thread where we can discuss this.

MiaHawk wrote:My thoughts/comments after watching that new preview:

1) Would love to analyze SCs of the FRC scenes - beach, steps?, red line?, sunlight.....pretty please.

2) I think she will elim Luke at start of Monday's show and she is going to elimin Chase at F3 AFTER the day portion and dinner but PRIOR to FS portion. I think VOs of 'he was having a hard time' and 'I don't know how to do this' may go with this, and her in navy dress at night are after she says good bye to Chase. Trista did this on her season, did not go to the FS with her F3 guy.

What makes you think this, Mia, though? From my perspective, there's nothing in the edit that points to her not taking Chase to FSDs. She's begged Chase to affirm her, and she was the one who stalled him about opening the van door at the end of his hometown date.

If that were to happen, it would be a shock and out of nowhere, IMO.

I also remembered that I didn't answer your question about Robby being a "bad guy." Just like Jordan has doubt cast over him about his intentions so does Robby versus Chase and Luke who are painted as being all-in and purely there for JoJo with no problematic ex-girlfriends or questions about fame seeking. Maybe Jordan and Robby will both be redeemed by the show's end while Luke, Chase will fall.

^ some things in this season just don't add up. Or should I say the editing didn't allow us to make sense of it all. They are:

1) The "strong relationship" between JoJo and Robby. Like he just started to appear as a front runner out of nowhere and most people are clueless as to when, what and how they established a foundation. IMO, that relationship is the most "bubble" of them all. On what is this strong relationship based? What struck me is that she thinks Robby is the most real, honest etc because he said ILY first. Really? I think the fact that TPTB left in the edit the description of Robby as real and honest, we'd see a complete reversal in the FRC where she talks about "he" dud to her, supposing that it's Robby.

2) How is it possible that she'd consider letting Luke go at this stage? Like really?! I thought the had one of the most emotional and physical, I must add, relationships. He literally made a heart of roses for her on the lawn and told her she has his heart but she wanted to let him go because he didn't say ILY??? I'm calling her bluff! I don't think she wanted to send him off because of his "lack of emotional depth" but thT the lifestyle he lives is just different from what she wants - country vs city.

There are other things as well that I don't get this season but those two stand out right now.

New Preview...

Thailand


Source

aviej wrote:^ some things in this season just don't add up. Or should I say the editing didn't allow us to make sense of it all. They are:

1) The "strong relationship" between JoJo and Robby. Like he just started to appear as a front runner out of nowhere and most people are clueless as to when, what and how they established a foundation. IMO, that relationship is the most "bubble" of them all. On what is this strong relationship based? What struck me is that she thinks Robby is the most real, honest etc because he said ILY first. Really? I think the fact that TPTB left in the edit the description of Robby as real and honest, we'd see a complete reversal in the FRC where she talks about "he" dud to her, supposing that it's Robby.

2) How is it possible that she'd consider letting Luke go at this stage? Like really?! I thought the had one of the most emotional and physical, I must add, relationships. He literally made a heart of roses for her on the lawn and told her she has his heart but she wanted to let him go because he didn't say ILY??? I'm calling her bluff! I don't think she wanted to send him off because of his "lack of emotional depth" but thT the lifestyle he lives is just different from what she wants - country vs city.

There are other things as well that I don't get this season but those two stand out right now.

I agree, avie, a lot doesn't make sense, including the number of times that she says that she doesn't know what she's doing or that she's afraid to make a mistake:






My guess as to the reason that she sent Luke home, that she might send Chase home, that we have this rapid buildup with Robby: This season was essentially over before it started, literally. This stuff is all distraction. I'm utterly perplexed by the camera pans to Chase whenever "husband" has been mentioned.

I think that Jo had her sights set on Jordan before she started her season, and when she said, "This is good," night one, she was essentially confirming to herself (and to us) that this relationship was the one she was set on.

I would love for Robby to pull out a surprise win or Chase or Luke, but I'm starting to think that it might not be in the cards.

I appreciate reading what you all think about Robby, because I value differing opinions and that's what this board is all about. As you are all well aware of, I have had a completely different take than most of you on Robby's edit from night one. I will give my 2 cents on a few items touched upon above, but please know that it is not my intention to start an argument or sway somebody to like Robby. We all see this show through our own lenses. I happen to like all of the final four guys, but I'm most drawn to Robby and I think Jojo is, too. Maybe I've been living on Mars, or maybe I'll have to go and live on Mars if Robby isn't F1, but, oh well, I guess I'll just pack lots of sunscreen.

This is my thought process and my opinions, and I fully admit I may be completely mistaken about how this all goes down:

First, We have a previous SC showing Chase in Thailand during the day on a boat. I take that as proof that he gets a FD. We also have a previous SC of Robby on bridge in Thailand, so we know he gets a FD.

I believe that the previous SCs also prove that Jordan and Robby are the last 2 men who make it to the FRC. (Based on hands/veins/ringbox). Which means that Robby, Jordan and Chase all get FD, and Chase would be F3 since there are no SC of Chase at FRC.

In the preview for Monday, we see Jojo alone at night wearing a navy dress/romper that would be appropriate for the dinner/night portion of the FD. In one scene she is walking away from us and we cannot see her face. But, to me, her body language looks like she could be crying, with her left hand to her face. We also see a close up view of her face in one SC and it looks like she is upset/possibly crying. We also see that she is walking along a walkway along a beach towards a patio/building-which gives me the impression that this all takes place on resort property. We see a white passenger van driving away. Is a man she just eliminated on his way to the airport? Then we hear 2 VOs in the preview done over the scenes where she is eliminating F4 (who I believe is Luke). She says (paraphrased) "He was really struggling/having a hard time' and 'I don't know what I'm doing'. These VO could go with the elimination of F4, but they could also go with the elimination of F3. I have found Jojo to be kind and caring throughout this process. I do believe it is in the realm of possibilities that after spending the entire day and dinner with Chase that she knew in her heart that she had a stronger connection with Jordan and Robby. In order not to hurt Chase further, she may eliminate him after dinner but prior to FS. Ask yourself Why would they be showing us Jojo walking at night alone and upset on her FD? Do we ever really see the lead walking alone at night on a FD except for when they are meeting up with the contestant and that is the purpose of the scene? And what could possibly be the reason that she is upset at night on her FD other than her date is not going well or she has come to a difficult decision? I cannot think of anything else that would explain this at this point in time. I think she will eliminate Chase prior to the FS. This makes sense to me, but it may not make sense to anyone else.

I believe that Jojo said that Robby has been the most open and honest because Robby has been the most open and honest. It is not that he told her ILY first. It is because he is able to effectively communicate to her what he is thinking and feeling, and he never shies away from giving a direct answer to her questions. Jordan says 'yeah, no, yeah, no' and then some platitude. Chase tells her he wants to be able to tell her things but it is hard for him. Robby does not have any issue talking about his feelings. She says Robby is believable and emotionally intelligent, aka honest. Meanwhile she tells Jordan she wishes she could read his mind and that she has a hard time reading him. She understands why Chase has a hard time expressing love and she has compassion for him. If she knew in her heart that it wasn't going to be him, I don't think she would want to give him false hope and have him get to the point of professing ILY only to send him home the next RC.

There was so much left on the cutting room floor with Robby in the first several episodes and beyond. The editors kept him well hidden. But if you truly want to understand what Robby and Jojo have built upon, there are snippets and the dots can be connected. Robby is a chatty extrovert. Given 5 minutes of her time here and there I'm sure he has shared a lot. He wrote her a note week 3 after not getting any dates. She told him in billiards room how much he opened up and how they were building a connection even with such little time together.

I believe that all of the couples who fall in love on this show, fall into Bubble Love first. The ones who are there for 15 minutes of fame will break up in a couple of months after the perks taper off and TPTB allow them to break up. The ones that make it are the ones who truly want a spouse and are willing to do the hard work necessary to get through the separation and the transitions. Watching Robby and Jojo communicate on Robby's HTD leaves me with no doubts that these two really want a spouse and they have the skill set to get through the rough patches and transitions.

I hate to say this out loud (and I apologize, Lost) but I don't think Luke orchestrated that heart of flowers all on his own. I think this: Luke is the strong silent type, a fabulous kisser, smart, honorable, can read the phonebook to you and make you swoon, but...I think that on his HTD he and Jojo walked around his town and old friends came up to talk to them. Then they went to the home where 50 people took up their time. There was no alone time or time for Jojo to have intimate conversations and dig deeper into who Luke is/was/wants to be. So, after dinner, they (either Luke and/or TPTB) set up some place that Luke and Jojo to go to for some alone time. Typically this alone time is done before meeting family, but maybe they didn't spend too much time talking prior to the 50-person BBQ (kind of like Jordan's trip to the HS-kind of showing her his childhood stuff, but not anything too deep). Knowing that he's not in her top 2, and wanting to add to dreamy Luke's resume for next lead, I do think that the candles and heart of flowers was 'suggested' by TPTB. Kind of like the Secret Admirer stuff was orchestrated with Chris S to play up his romantic side. My gut tells me that Luke has probably had a little experience with the ladies-this ain't his first rodeo. He knows his way around a woman's body. His lips and hands have mad skills. But, he may not be the most demonstratively romantic guy in the group of 4 left. Jordan is also not demonstratively romantic, IMO he has the romantic maturity of a 16 yr old boy. Chase set up a mountaintop view for hot cocoa and snowman making, then included her in some very personal conversations with this family. He showed great vulnerability doing so. Robby had a Robbyesque day of horse and carriage, drinks by the ocean, and whatever the heck they served for dinner-cuz that is the most excited I think I've seen her all season! So, yeah, it is part of producing this show that she must get the guys to fall for her and open up, but in the end she can only choose one.

Everything expressed here is purely my personal opinion. Peace.

Thank you, Ladybug!

Aviej, I agree. There has been a lot she has said in this last epi that doesnt make any sense to me, starting with the comment that she wanted more depth from Luke. Huh? Then she says she's letting him go because he hasn't said I LY yet, but then he does, but that wasnt good enough, even though Chase hasnt said it to her yet. Then in the preview she says I wanted to fall in love with him. So, she doesnt love him yet so therefore would not say that to him, but he has to go because he hasnt said he loves her. Because, obviously, if a guy says it, he definitely means it. What the heck is going on?

I feel like a broken record. Luke lives in Nashville and spends a lot of time in Austin. Two large progrssive cities. Burnet is close to Austin and it appears he visits his fsmily when there. They discussed this in the hot tub on their 1st 1-1. She said she likes both Nashville and Austin. She also seemed to like his answer to the question about if he plans to live in a small town to raise a family, which is probably the best answer I have heard to that question on this show.

We really can't know that Mia imo, possibility yes, but the whole thing with his family and then what he had to say during their alone time fit with what he said and did, all those people mean something to him, he wanted them all to know her... he was in other words 'showing off his girl' to the people that meant the most to him. So as he's going to the heart, he mentions them again, all those people have a big part of his heart/are his heart, he wanted her to see them and know that his heart is all hers.

He did mention in vo he was ready to say I love you, but I think Luke felt her vibe and by the way she was acting, maybe that's why he held back? But he was ready to say it to her, she just kind of checked out though, because supposedly he didn't say I love you. He says it at the hangar and she's still checked out thinking it's too late and sends him home. Did she make a mistake, 100% and maybe she'll figure it out in the long run. I'm beginning to think she sent all the remaining guys home.

avi-agree, things don't add up...edit has been horrible and now we're left with 2 bad boys at the end...ok, don't buy it. Something else happens.

I think that IRL relationships, when one person is in the process of falling in love with another person, they can make a list of things they like or love about the person, but the deciding factor in whether or not you truly fall in love with them is very difficult to put into words. It's a feeling. It's an essence. It's an X-factor. Two people can have very similar lists of good qualities. One you fall in love with, the other you don't.

But on this show, the lead is expected to be able to put into words and soundbites why this person wasn't the one she fell in love with. So, they come up with something to say, a reason. It may not be perfectly worded or fully comprehensible to us, because it is merely an attempt to explain the unexplainable.

I think that half of this process for the lead is seeing how they feel and react to the expressions of affection and love of the contestants. Just like a lead can feel different things when she is kissed by different men, she can also feel different things when the different men are telling her that they love her, or are falling in love with her, etc. If they never kiss anyone or they never hear any of these professions of love, they'll never know what their reaction to them is.

Here are 2 examples taken from my much younger days:

In HS I had this nice, smart, funny, personable guy ask me out on a date. At the end of our evening he walked me to my door, but I avoided the good night kiss. In the weeks that followed he asked me to a dance. I declined. Even though he was a great guy, I didn't want to date him. Why? Twofold answer: 1) I just didn't feel 'it' with him and 2) I had a crush on another guy (which gave me the opportunity to make a contrast between how I felt about this guy compared to my crush). I was completely available and here was this nice guy wanting to date me, but I passed.

Nearly all women like flowers, right? A pretty bouquet from a guy should make a girl happy, right? Except when they are from the 'wrong' guy. In college I had a male friend. We graduated HS together but struck up our friendship after HS graduation. We both were living at home for the start of college, whereas most of his and my friends had moved away for school. We used to go out as friends-to movies, to eat, or just hang out. Purely platonic. Until he asked me if I'd 'go out with him'. To which I declined and we continued on with our friendship. Then, I meet my future husband and we start going on dates, and my male friend knew that I had started dating someone. One day I am talking on the phone to my future husband when a delivery of flowers comes to my door. My mother hands me the arrangement and, still talking on phone, I open the card. I thought that they were sent by my new boyfriend. Thank God I didn't say anything out loud until I read the card. They were from my male friend, and the card attached said something about 'Will you go out with me?". Never have flowers ever made me feel so lousy. But, I knew in that moment with razor sharp clarity who I was hoping the flowers were sent by. I felt badly that I didn't feel the same way that my male friend did, and I knew it was time for another 'talk' with my friend. Sometimes it's your reaction that tells you in no unceertain terms what you really are feeling.

Love - it's a feeling. It's complicated. It's not easy to tell a guy that you don't feel 'it' with them. It's not easy when you are a young adult going out on a date, or when a platonic friend wants more, and it's surely not easy for a woman dating 25 men on a TV show.

Lost, you are correct. We cannot really know anything for sure (about the heart of flowers, etc). You are correct. His words did match the gesture. I'm just saying that it is possible that TPTB 'suggested' a romantic gesture was in order. I totally agree with you about Luke getting spooked by Jojo's behavior on the hay bales. Her face looked pained at times, she tears up, she may have been pulling back a bit from kissing, etc. Luke probably read into it and his gut may have told him that the timing wasn't right, that he shouldn't say ILY at that moment. Would saying ILY have made all the difference in his staying or going? IDK. I tend to think that Jojo might have eliminated him at F4 or F3 if he'd said ILY on the actual HTD. I do think that the 2 'front runners' were Robby and Jordan (Sorry, Robby! I know you hate to hear that! ). She may have also been 'encouraged' to let Luke go at F4 because he was under consideration for the next lead. There is so much freaking nonsense that we are in the dark about!

Hooked wrote:I tend to agree with miahawk's summing up above

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