Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - #8

Of course, we, the audience will never know what exactly went down. How many takes it took, how much editing went into the scene, what she was allowed to say or not say.
We can say however, that she did not leave Nick with the feeling that the relationship she had with him was not enough for her and that the other relationship offered what she needed, wanted.
Other leads have said such--as anguished as Brooks was he did make it clear to Des.
It appeared the more Nick needed definition of what was going down, the angrier ME got.

I have absolutely no doubt TPTB played mind games every which way with both parties. That is their job. That is why you will never see me come out and saying being on the show is a good thing. Good things may come from it, but you sell a pound of flesh to get there and that can be very painful as you are going through it.

Kashathediva wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:IMO, I can't even compare the Brooks and Des situation to Andi and Josh's with Nick. Even though it hurt her on the show, Brooks was kind to her and ultimately, it was the best thing to happen to Des. Chris was the best guy there for her, no doubt and it worked out perfectly for them.

Brooks didn't chase Des down after the show. He didn't try to see her in person while she was engaged to a different man. Brooks didn't want a second chance with her and write her a letter telling her she picked the wrong guy and that he was the better choice, so take him back. He didn't tell millions of people he slept with her on live television nor was he recorded on a plane spoiling the ending and talking negatively about the winner of the show. People can argue all they want that Andi was disrespectful, I don't disagree to a certain extent, but Nick wasn't respectful of Andi either nor was he respectful of the guys, especially Josh and his relationship with Andi, who didn't do anything or say anything badly about him until Nick had his plane fiasco, wanted a second chance with his fiance, and then told millions of people he slept with her. Nick might be respectful now, but no one from this show had to deal with a runner up the way Josh and Andi had to post filming. No matter what my views are on the three of them, that's plain and simple for me.

To me this is comparing apples to oranges.
Brooks was not the lead, Des was. Brooks was the one terminating the relationship, not the main. Brooks used so much compassion and kindness with Des, that the film crew took time to film his anguish. Brooks did not need to attempt to contact Des post show, there was closure. Period. It was him terminating the relationship and Des had happily moved on. Case closed.

On the other hand, MEandI was the lead, she was the one terminating the relationship. She did not provide closure and/or the producers worked this. Kindness and compassion were not utilized in dealing with the situation. The film crew even accentuated this on her exit from Nick's room. The ensuing months after the FRC was like a pressure cooker/crock pot. The situation stewed rather that putting a fork in it and being done.
To me, these are entirely different situations with two entirely different results.

I was saying they were entirely two different situations with two different results. Someone else first posted about it and questioned another poster, so I just figured I would respond with my thoughts.

For me, regardless of who was the lead versus who was the contestant and the process of what led up to it and also how much producers were involved, the end result is the same as what I posted. He spoiled the ending of the show on a plane and said some rude things about Josh. Nick tried to get into contact with Andi post show while she was engaged to someone else so he could see her. One time happened to be while Andi and Josh were in Mexico together. He flew out to the WTA to see her. He wrote her a letter stating he still thought she made the wrong choice and that he essentially wanted a second chance. He then told millions of people he slept with her on national television. There is absolutely no way Andi and Nick could have met up without cameras there. I can remember countless contestants from this show that left without closure and they didn't do what Nick did. Again, no matter what led up to it and how it all occurred and why, it all did, so I still stand by what I said.

No one has had to deal with the runner up the way Josh and Andi did on this show. Nick might be all quiet now, but he wasn't from May through July.

Ash2214 wrote:IMO, I can't even compare the Brooks and Des situation to Andi and Josh's with Nick. Even though it hurt her on the show, Brooks was kind to her and ultimately, it was the best thing to happen to Des. Chris was the best guy there for her, no doubt and it worked out perfectly for them.

Pretty much that^

He was a class act at his after the final rose. Not comparable at all.

Alanna wrote:Was Andi allowed to tell Nick she's breaking up with him because she wants Josh as her f1? When he asked her in that hotel room if it's something about their relationship or "someone" else, she acted like she had no idea WTF he was talking about, like, "who the heck is someone else?!?" I wonder if that was a contingency for letting him go early for her by tptb.

Bingo. I don't think it's a coincidence that both Emily and Andi, the leads who didn't give their F2 much if any closure, were allowed to let the F2 go early. I think it's pretty obvious that they were told not to make any definitive statements about being in love with/choosing their F1, because then there's no drama left for the FRC. How can they play their ominous music and make us think the F1 is maybe possibly going to get dumped, if the lead has already made it clear that she's in love with him? Where's the suspense in that?

Ash2214 wrote:IMO, I can't even compare the Brooks and Des situation to Andi and Josh's with Nick. Even though it hurt her on the show, Brooks was kind to her and ultimately, it was the best thing to happen to Des. Chris was the best guy there for her, no doubt and it worked out perfectly for them.

Brooks didn't chase Des down after the show. He didn't try to see her in person while she was engaged to a different man. Brooks didn't want a second chance with her and write her a letter telling her she picked the wrong guy and that he was the better choice, so take him back. He didn't tell millions of people he slept with her on live television nor was he recorded on a plane spoiling the ending and talking negatively about the winner of the show. People can argue all they want that Andi was disrespectful, I don't disagree to a certain extent, but Nick wasn't respectful of Andi either nor was he respectful of the guys, especially Josh and his relationship with Andi, who didn't do anything or say anything badly about him until Nick had his plane fiasco, wanted a second chance with his fiance, and then told millions of people he slept with her. Nick might be respectful now, but no one from this show had to deal with a runner up the way Josh and Andi had to post filming. No matter what my views are on the three of them, that's plain and simple for me.

My point was Des might have felt humiliated at one point by Brooks but she didn't let that humiliation continue in her life with Chris. The same for Chris, while I can agree Andi might have been humiliated by Nick but by now she and Josh should have moved with their life as a couple without being bothered by Nick. All it tells me is Andi hasn't moved on from Nick for her and brat boy to continue being vengeful towards Nick. It was just one event, no one said they should be friends or anything

StacyNor wrote:

My point was Des might have felt humiliated at one point by Brooks but she didn't let that humiliation continue in her life with Chris. The same for Chris, while I can agree Andi might have been humiliated by Nick but by now she and Josh should have moved with their life as a couple without being bothered  by Nick. All it tells me is Andi hasn't moved on from Nick for her and brat boy to continue being vengeful towards Nick. It was just one event, no one said they should be friends or anything

Well said. I think that's the point some are trying to make, you summarized it perfectly.

Ash2214 wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:IMO, I can't even compare the Brooks and Des situation to Andi and Josh's with Nick. Even though it hurt her on the show, Brooks was kind to her and ultimately, it was the best thing to happen to Des. Chris was the best guy there for her, no doubt and it worked out perfectly for them.

Brooks didn't chase Des down after the show. He didn't try to see her in person while she was engaged to a different man. Brooks didn't want a second chance with her and write her a letter telling her she picked the wrong guy and that he was the better choice, so take him back. He didn't tell millions of people he slept with her on live television nor was he recorded on a plane spoiling the ending and talking negatively about the winner of the show. People can argue all they want that Andi was disrespectful, I don't disagree to a certain extent, but Nick wasn't respectful of Andi either nor was he respectful of the guys, especially Josh and his relationship with Andi, who didn't do anything or say anything badly about him until Nick had his plane fiasco, wanted a second chance with his fiance, and then told millions of people he slept with her. Nick might be respectful now, but no one from this show had to deal with a runner up the way Josh and Andi had to post filming. No matter what my views are on the three of them, that's plain and simple for me.

To me this is comparing apples to oranges.
Brooks was not the lead, Des was. Brooks was the one terminating the relationship, not the main. Brooks used so much compassion and kindness with Des, that the film crew took time to film his anguish. Brooks did not need to attempt to contact Des post show, there was closure. Period. It was him terminating the relationship and Des had happily moved on. Case closed.

On the other hand, MEandI was the lead, she was the one terminating the relationship. She did not provide closure and/or the producers worked this. Kindness and compassion were not utilized in dealing with the situation. The film crew even accentuated this on her exit from Nick's room. The ensuing months after the FRC was like a pressure cooker/crock pot. The situation stewed rather that putting a fork in it and being done.
To me, these are entirely different situations with two entirely different results.

I was saying they were entirely two different situations with two different results. Someone else first posted about it and questioned another poster, so I just figured I would respond with my thoughts.

For me, regardless of who was the lead versus who was the contestant and the process of what led up to it and also how much producers were involved, the end result is the same as what I posted. He spoiled the ending of the show on a plane and said some rude things about Josh. Nick tried to get into contact with Andi post show while she was engaged to someone else so he could see her. One time happened to be while Andi and Josh were in Mexico together. He flew out to the WTA to see her. He wrote her a letter stating he still thought she made the wrong choice and that he essentially wanted a second chance. He then told millions of people he slept with her on national television. There is absolutely no way Andi and Nick could have met up without cameras there. I can remember countless contestants from this show that left without closure and they didn't do what Nick did. Again, no matter what led up to it and how it all occurred and why, it all did, so I still stand by what I said.

No one has had to deal with the runner up the way Josh and Andi did on this show. Nick might be all quiet now, but he wasn't from May through July.  

Yes, I know you were saying they were different.   I'm sorry if my post came across fuzzy.
Basically I feel as StacyNor commented above.

StacyNor wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:IMO, I can't even compare the Brooks and Des situation to Andi and Josh's with Nick. Even though it hurt her on the show, Brooks was kind to her and ultimately, it was the best thing to happen to Des. Chris was the best guy there for her, no doubt and it worked out perfectly for them.

Brooks didn't chase Des down after the show. He didn't try to see her in person while she was engaged to a different man. Brooks didn't want a second chance with her and write her a letter telling her she picked the wrong guy and that he was the better choice, so take him back. He didn't tell millions of people he slept with her on live television nor was he recorded on a plane spoiling the ending and talking negatively about the winner of the show. People can argue all they want that Andi was disrespectful, I don't disagree to a certain extent, but Nick wasn't respectful of Andi either nor was he respectful of the guys, especially Josh and his relationship with Andi, who didn't do anything or say anything badly about him until Nick had his plane fiasco, wanted a second chance with his fiance, and then told millions of people he slept with her. Nick might be respectful now, but no one from this show had to deal with a runner up the way Josh and Andi had to post filming. No matter what my views are on the three of them, that's plain and simple for me.

My point was Des might have felt humiliated at one point by Brooks but she didn't let that humiliation continue in her life with Chris. The same for Chris, while I can agree Andi might have been humiliated by Nick but by now she and Josh should have moved with their life as a couple without being bothered  by Nick. All it tells me is Andi hasn't moved on from Nick for her and brat boy to continue being vengeful towards Nick. It was just one event, no one said they should be friends or anything

There's no doubt that I think Des felt humiliated and hurt, but again, very different circumstances. Brooks was very kind to her throughout and before the show even ended, she realized she was in love with Chris. After filming, It was just Des and Chris. They didn't have to deal with with anything in regards to Brooks while they were in hiding or in the beginning of their public life because Brooks let it go and moved on, granted they did have to face the stupid questions in the media like Josh and Andi did. Heck, IMO I think Brooks would have needed more closure than Nick. Brooks walked away knowing Des had told him she was in love with him. Even if he didn't feel that way about her, I would think he was probably confused given what was said between them and the wrong spoiler was out there, so Brooks had zero clue as to how the show ended, but he never bothered Des.

No matter what was fed to Nick by producers or if he did it all on his own, he still did all of those things that I said in my previous post to a newly engaged couple that were trying to start together. Personally, whether it was right or wrong, I can see why, if it is 100% true, that Josh and Andi weren't keen on having Nick in such close quarters again. People will certainly view things differently though.

Eagle Eye wrote:

Alanna wrote:Was Andi allowed to tell Nick she's breaking up with him because she wants Josh as her f1? When he asked her in that hotel room if it's something about their relationship or "someone" else, she acted like she had no idea WTF he was talking about, like, "who the heck is someone else?!?" I wonder if that was a contingency for letting him go early for her by tptb.

Bingo. I don't think it's a coincidence that both Emily and Andi, the leads who didn't give their F2 much if any closure, were allowed to let the F2 go early. I think it's pretty obvious that they were told not to make any definitive statements about being in love with/choosing their F1, because then there's no drama left for the FRC. How can they play their ominous music and make us think the F1 is maybe possibly going to get dumped, if the lead has already made it clear that she's in love with him? Where's the suspense in that?

Arie also struggled emotionally at the time.  As I recall, he flew to Em's hometown and left his journal (like Nick giving CH a letter on the MTA weekend).  

Chris from Ali's season - wasn't he let go early as well?  It was a long time ago but I think Ali might have done better in attempting to give Chris closure.  It's possible the way in which each lead handled the F2 breakup during filming was just a reflection of their individual personalities.

Ash2214 wrote:IMO, I can't even compare the Brooks and Des situation to Andi and Josh's with Nick. Even though it hurt her on the show, Brooks was kind to her and ultimately, it was the best thing to happen to Des. Chris was the best guy there for her, no doubt and it worked out perfectly for them.

Brooks didn't chase Des down after the show. He didn't try to see her in person while she was engaged to a different man. Brooks didn't want a second chance with her and write her a letter telling her she picked the wrong guy and that he was the better choice, so take him back. He didn't tell millions of people he slept with her on live television nor was he recorded on a plane spoiling the ending and talking negatively about the winner of the show. People can argue all they want that Andi was disrespectful, I don't disagree to a certain extent, but Nick wasn't respectful of Andi either nor was he respectful of the guys, especially Josh and his relationship with Andi, who didn't do anything or say anything badly about him until Nick had his plane fiasco, wanted a second chance with his fiance, and then told millions of people he slept with her. Nick might be respectful now, but no one from this show had to deal with a runner up the way Josh and Andi had to post filming. No matter what my views are on the three of them, that's plain and simple for me.

Kashathediva wrote:Of course, we, the audience will never know what exactly went down. How many takes it took, how much editing went into the scene, what she was allowed to say or not say.
We can say however, that she did not leave Nick with the feeling that the relationship she had with him was not enough for her and that the other relationship offered what she needed, wanted.
Other leads have said such--as anguished as Brooks was he did make it clear to Des.
It appeared the more Nick needed definition of what was going down, the angrier ME got.

I have absolutely no doubt TPTB played mind games every which way with both parties. That is their job. That is why you will never see me come out and saying being on the show is a good thing. Good things may come from it, but you sell a pound of flesh to get there and that can be very painful as you are going through it.

But how does this line up with what Nick said in the car when he was leaving - "she obviously has strong feelings for Josh". That says to me, enough information was given for him to draw that conclusion. Besides, I don't think TPTB would allow Andi to say point blank that she has stronger feelings for Josh and give away the ending. If I remember correctly, when Nick asked if it was about someone else, she shrugged and glanced quickly in the direction of the camera. So who knows what they told her to say. Andi has been consistent and honest in telling all of the guys who she has broken up with, even Chris, why things would not have worked out. Why the same attention didn't take place with the F2, I think you have to direct that at TPTB because it goes against her trend with all the others.

GuardianAngel wrote:

StacyNor wrote:

My point was Des might have felt humiliated at one point by Brooks but she didn't let that humiliation continue in her life with Chris. The same for Chris, while I can agree Andi might have been humiliated by Nick but by now she and Josh should have moved with their life as a couple without being bothered  by Nick. All it tells me is Andi hasn't moved on from Nick for her and brat boy to continue being vengeful towards Nick. It was just one event, no one said they should be friends or anything

Well said. I think that's the point some are trying to make, you summarized it perfectly.

All of the seasons are a bit different and the people on the seasons have their own unique relationships (good, bad, or ugly). Editing makes it difficult to ever know what truly occured. TPTB's manipulations and mind games are always a part of production. In Andi's season, I think it was well demonstrated that these manipulations can and do continue after the finale. I do not doubt that "things" may have been whispered around by certain friendly crew members prior to Chris' premiere in an attempt to gauge 'the temperature of the water' with Andi and Josh IF Nick were to also attend. IF Andi or Josh began to beat their chests or stamp their feet, it may have then gotten back to someone further up the foodchain and Nick's invitation was reneged or it was strongly advised not to attend. Heck, all they would have to say to Nick was that horrible Kelly was going to be there and he probably gladly declined.

Because this show is so highly edited and people are manipulated or are there for the wrong reasons from the start, I do not always judge the people or think I really know their character. I typically think character is what we see post- finale (at ATFR) and beyond. I just said above that Andi, Josh, and Nick could still be being manipulated by their friendly handler crew member buddies (who are really double agents), but I do strongly believe that Andi and Josh (to a lesser degree) have a particular personality type and continue to act accordingly.

It is my own personal opinion that Andi was doted upon and spoiled as a child (her words) and has grown into a materialistic, entitled woman. I feel she has a black or white view of the world...you are right or wrong, good or evil, with me or against me...which may be exactly what serves her well as an attorney but lends itself to a sort of harshness when it comes to personal relationships. In law, to hesitate, to shown any kind of ambivalence or wiggle room in a prosecution is a sign of a weak case, a flaw. And if you are being judged by your work, you in turn are seen as weak or flawed. That is not Andi's style. She is someone who fancies herself as a strong person and would rather go for the jugular than pull away from a fight (JPGand Nick). To me, this view of life is immature. She basically doesn't trust herself enough to be kind or forgiving to those who she perceives have wronged her. Hopefully she will grow and mature and change, but this little incident (if it occured as we are discussing here) just shows that she hasn't. It's easy to smile and be gracious when things are going your way. It's the true test of who you are when things aren't going your way. That's when true character shows. What I continue to see from her is a person who wants the sun to shine on her without any shadows cast. She craves the illusion of an in control, in the driver's seat, woman. Hopefully, in her inner circle she will be able to let her guard down and be real and accept others for being real, too. Otherwise, nobody will ever live up to her impossible standatds of perfection. JMHO.