Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #4

Lucas15 wrote:

bleuberry wrote:One could make the argument that she says she doesn't regret it to please/not set off the blabber mouth creepster that is Nick

But truthfully what I find most interesting are her words about it when it was all filmed. Those were raw and unrehearsed. Very, very telling, no matter what image she's trying to portray now after months of being groomed by TPTB for this very moment.

If someone (man or woman) has sex that simply blows your mind and heaven and earth move, you're going to be a very happy camper the next morning as you bask in the afterglow. What I saw last night was someone pretty darn miserable and trying to convince themselves they are not a bad person when they probably feel they are. If the event that brought on that set of feelings afterwards isn't a mistake then I don't know what is.

If Kaitlyn gets Shawn (and it looks like she does) then Nick is going to quickly become a distant memory. If she loses Shawn then Nick is going to become a distant nightmare. Either way - distant. When you find the apple you're eating has half a worm in it, you'll probably swear off apples even if it wasn't the apple's fault.

JMHO

Yes, I got the same impression. She's rewriting the narrative a little post show but that happens every season so whatevs.

Alanna wrote:

IrishGal wrote:Nick's not F1. And I thank goodness for it.  Kaitlin is my fave bette so far and it would break my heart if she hitched herself to that creepy man.  He makes my skin crawl. He's unattractive, he reminds me of Eddie Haskell in the original Leave it to Beaver TV show from the 60s...most of you won't recall that but Eddie was a fake smarmy piece of grossness and that's how I view Nick. He seduced Kait on the internet so that he could make his big comeback and redeem himself...well it didn't work because he is doing the exact same thing. A snake is a snake is a snake. Sorry Nick Chicks but that's just how I feel.

LMAO, just hilarious. He really seems to come from the weasel family of species, doesn't he? Oh Kaitlyn. Not a good decision to ever answer that first creeptastic dm.

Co-signed. :halo:

happydays wrote:

emusha wrote:

happydays wrote:I think Nick is well meaning from having followed him, but given the circumstances, the craziness of the show and the magic paintbrush used by the producers, I totally get why people see him as a player. If I wasn't drawn to Nick in Andi's season, I'd probably think he is a bit shifty as well.

Intentions aside though, even as a Nick Chick, I'm going to admit -- I don't think K & N are a good match. I don't like Shawn but I like Shawn and Kaitlyn together and I think they are actually a much better fit.

Contrary to some of the sentiments being shared on the forum, I think they can actually make it and be in each other's lives forever.

i was speculating the same what makes you think this?

Well what I see is that N and S are two completely different types and K is intrigued by both, but ultimately K & S are a better fit in terms of their needs. This is why (JMO ofc, would love to bounce around some thoughts on this!):

Many have speculated that Kaitlyn is immature. IMO, inside Kaitlyn there is a little girl who just wants to be cared for, sort of like a little kid. I remember seeing this interview where she said that she likes it when a guy shows love by giving her a warm towel to wrap around her when she gets out of the shower because she is always cold. Shawn being the more protective/possessive (whatever we want to call it) type, imo, is the guy more likely to show his love this way. From last season, I get the impression that Nick's sort of love is more thought-out, like the storybook we wrote for Andi or giving her a necklace with the sand from the beach where he told her he loved her. I think K likes the simpler things and Shawn can give that to her. I don't think Nick's effort would be as appreciated.

Second, I think Shawn is more of an emotional guy and Nick is more practical -- not sure if those are the right words to go with, but let me explain. Prime e.g. -- Shawn entering this show, imo, he was obviously naive and I don't believe he has sat down to watch a full season from some of the behaviour we are witnessing. Nick on the other hand, studied Des's season to see what he was getting himself into. Going back to what K would appreciate and really wants, I think her type is more of the emotional guy. She acts with emotion and on impulse, as we see with her losing herself in the moment with a few of the guys. I also think that while Nick's mental stimulation is interesting short-term, she needs that emotional connection in the longer term.

And lastly, I think while Nick might find some of K's childishness and habits endearing early on in the relationship (like being scared of birds which personally I find ridiculous), I can definitely see this becoming annoying to him further on. I think Nick is more attracted to someone's traits and qualities, and like I mentioned above, Shawn is more emotional and the love at first sight sort of guy. Being protective in his nature, I think Shawn will be more accepting of K's childishness than Nick will be. I think Nick needs someone more mature.

To summarize, both are different guys who show their love and support in different ways, but K needs a certain type and that type is S. Both guys deserve to be appreciated by their partner and have as much put back into the relationship as much as they have put in, and I don't think K can provide that in the capacity that Nick would want.

^^ ok that was my verbal vomit, interested to hear your thoughts!

EDIT: I really could be reading K all wrong, but this is the impression I am getting from post-filming from her snapchats and interviews.

Interesting points -- I def think that K and N are different people -- before the season began I saw them as completely mismatched. they just didn't seem to sustain what the other needs -- wasn't sure if K was into deep thought and conversation, I wasn't sure if he's the protective kind (he seemed much more the bff -- I'll be there for you etc.)
- she's spontaneous, fun and a bit of a scatterbrain
- he's spontaneous, fun and a deep thinker
I think the kind of love N wants is the challenging kind -- he wants a soul deep connection -- the kind where you feels known by the other and vice versa. I felt that Andi wasn't really into that and honestly I don't know if K is really into that. I think K prefers to take things at face value and jump into them and live them...while N I think might do the same but part of his enjoyment really comes from the depth of his experience, the challenge and insight the deep adventure in terms of his growth and thinking etc. etc. I didn't get the sense that K was/is into that.
I do think N can provide the bff be there for her always and protective type of relationship but I think he really prefers the kind of relationship that has him and his life partner challenging each other...helping each other move forward and looking out for each other...
strangely enough I wonder if K is more into the "alpha male" guy is in charge and makes her feel secure kind of relationship while Nick (also being a libra) looks for balance and wants to bring a lot but also wants his partner to bring a lot -- I think Andi's strong personality shows us what he's looking for in that sense -- and I think it's partly why he wants a strong confident girl.
I think you're right about K in that she wants to kind of sink into a guy and let him lead and keep her safe while she can do all her free spirited things -- I think she's into simpler things and simpler lifestyle than nick ...e.g. I can't imagine him moving to the rural area and disconnecting from urban living. he seems to thrive from intellectual stimulation, new experiences in ways that nurture his mind and perspective
that's my impression of the two of them before the show began airing and her initial interviews pointed at these things.
I really think Nick needs someone who has the traits similar to sharleen -- maybe with a dash of K and Andi thrown in the mix -- a girl enjoys intellectual conversations, has a very spontaneous and fun and funny and silly side (she doesn't take herself seriously) but can challenge him -- can bring a lot in terms of the personal journey she's gone on to the table (i think K could bring more of that than Andi but sharleen has much more of than in terms of personal growth IMHO) but also a girl who's a bit strong-willed and has fortitude about the direction she's taking her life. I think he wants a girl who can be social and enjoyable as well.
the good thing is while he is looking for A LOT -- he knows exactly what he wants & does all he can for the chance of getting it -- unfortunately he doesn't seem to meet the girl looking for the same kind of relationship and lifestyle so far.

he seems to appreciate and really enjoy the things I think he's very complementary with K on -- their perspective on life is similar but I don't know if she's an "explorer" in the same way he is seeking learning and growth... I think they are much much more complementary than andi and N -- communication style, able to "get each other" vs. it being one sided and nick got Andi but not the other way around.
Nick keeps telling K he wants to know all of her...curious to see how K lets him see all of her and how she would do the same to him cos I do think that's the think that N craves the most in a relationship that "soul deep" connection -- I also think shawn's insecurities and K's fear about them would hold her back from truly revealing herself and N doing the same in a way they really expand on and grow a very deep emotional bond between themselves

JMHO

Good points, Emusha.

From what we have seen of Kaitlyn and Nick, IMO, Kaitlyn wants to live in the moment and not relive it (always looking for the next moment to live in) and Nick wants to analyze the moment he has lived in (wants to reflect and relive it, solidify memories/lessons).

^^ Loved both of those posts Emusha & AAL !

I, like Nick, love to analyse these interactions!

I think really Nick is too deep for Kaitlyn. Combined with K's live in the moment and free attitude, I don't think they are viable long term.
I think they are a bit too far apart on the scale to balance each other out

mysthelma wrote:If Nick is a player am sure some disgruntled girlfriend would have come out of the woods to tell like it's been reported about other contestants in the past. We know he has 2 serious relationships longer and even got engaged. I just think knows what he wants and won't just settle for anyone. He saw K as a potential much, had the courage to talk to her and strike a friendship, couldn't stop her from becoming the bette so he decide to put himself out there again full aware of the potential backlash. He knew what he was getting himself into, he stated when joined in NYC he wanted to see they could have a shot at something special happening, he didn't arrive already in love with K, he also said to the guys during the firing squad there is a good chance K will still end up with one of them. So I think he is good not that it won't suck to not get the girl u like. He seems fine not bitter hence he supports K

Well and enough said. I approve

.most of you won't recall that but Eddie was a fake smarmy piece of grossness and that's how I view Nick. He seduced Kait on the internet so that he could make his big comeback and redeem himself...

I always liked Nick during Andi's season and still to this day will fervently stand by that even with the whole ATFR drama. And I still like Nick now. That said, I don't feel bad for the crazy hate he's getting because I thought he was stupid and crazy to put himself back into that mess and whatever he got, well there you go. In my opinion, if anyone is crazy enough to do this show even once, that's bad enough, but after that, run and run far away from these people and that franchise.

That said, comments like the above sort of amuse me. Poor, poor naive Kaitlyn being used by that gross, evil, mastermind svengali Nick. Because what's free will right? Certainly Katilyn could not have entertained Nick because she wanted to, kept him on the show because she wanted to and had sex with him (again if you believe the spoilers) twice in the span of a few weeks because she wanted to. No, it's all that evil creepy genius' manipulation.

It's funny reading comments here where many are coming from the perspective of having watched Nick on Andi's season and already formed an opinion about him from there and talking to a friend of mine who didn't watch Andi's season. She's been a fan of the franchise for years and used to watch every season but stopped watching as consistently some years ago. She watched Juan Pablo's season and couldn't stand Andi and her dramatic exit which she felt Andi did partly to secure the Bachelorette gig and so she avoided the latter's season entirely.

The reason I bring this is up is because she has no previous opinion on Nick even though she is aware of the ATFR comment, which she didn't think was big deal, but she has been watching this season faithfully. And I was telling her about some of the comments here and other places of how Nick is so creepy and gross and how he was pushing the PDA, clearly seducing Kaitlyn, etc. and she laughed at that.

Her response was, "umm that woman was practically climbing the guy throughout most of the date and at one point looked like if she could hump him right there in public she would." She brought up the part where they were walking around when Kaitlyn mentioned wearing a shirt with holes in the back so Nick could grab her butt, to which he dead-pan responded, "yeah thanks for that." Her view on the episode was that Kaitlyn did what she did because she was horny as hell and very, very turned on and sexually attracted to Nick and sure, especially with some producers in her ear, after she felt guilty about how the other guys would view her actions but no one forced her or seduced her into anything she didn't want to do.

Her view of Shawn was also interesting because she thought he was obnoxious and possessive and borderline creepy during the episode. It was amusing listening to her, since she's unspoiled because the more Shawn got upset during the episode and acted out, the more irritated she got and eventually was screaming at the television, "please tell me Kaitlyn doesn't choose that aggressive, egotistical idiot?" I quietly said nothing.

I just thought that perspective was interesting and brought to mind what I said in this week's episode discussion thread. I do think when people watch the show spoiled and in this case not just spoiled about the winner, but having a perspective of Nick from his being on another season, opinions are skewed because of it. Because I agree with others that I've seen nothing so awful, evil, hateful, gross that Nick has done. But the fact is, to many he's the guy who outed Andi at the ATFR and now he's had sex with Kaitlyn, how dare he, when she's clearly "Shawn's girl". Of course ignoring that she hadn't chosen Shawn yet when this all went down.

But as I said above, he put himself in front of this firing squad again so it is what it is. I forgot to add that I agree with others on not really seeing it with Kaitlyn and Nick. Seeing their one on one, I'm more convinced that Ashley S. "that's lust" comment was kept in for a reason. Now of course we know the show does edit to the narrative they want to tell but I didn't get the feeling that Nick is falling in love with Kaitlyn. I think he likes her, they have a nice friendship and are clearly very, very sexually attracted to each other but, and I can't believe I'm saying this as I can't stand her, I bought Nick's feelings for Andi a lot more. And maybe that is why as some have noted he seems okay and maybe he is.

He didn't want to live with the regret of the what if with Kaitlyn, so he took the chance knowing he would get skewered again online and in the end, turns out what they had wasn't meant to be but at least now he knows for sure.

I'll take a Nick any day over anyone who judges someone based on what they've heard or read in tabloids, without even trying to get to know that person. I may have missed it but I haven't seen Nick tweet a negative comment about the people who dislike him, or can't move forward from their past hurt. True forgiveness means never holding the thing a person did over their heads forever. One may not forget, you just don't rehash it or bring it up again. I like Nick. Everyone needs to read Sharleen's blog, she excelled herself on that last one.

Lleky, I wish we still had the like button because I 100% agree with everything you said. I was just saying that if Nick had said all the things that Shawn did (I can't stay around while she bangs two other guys in the FS, I wish you would be smarter, she'd rather have Jared than me, etc) people would totally go after him for being a sl*t-shamer, being rude to the other guys, being cocky and possessive, having anger issues, etc. with Shawn, it's like "Kaitlyn doesn't deserve you!!"

Anyways, I agree that I don't feel sorry for anyone who does this twice, but it's still funny to see how hypocritical people can be.

julychild wrote:I'll take a Nick any day over anyone who judges someone based on what they've heard or read in tabloids, without even trying to get to know that person. I may have missed it but I haven't seen Nick tweet a negative comment about the people who dislike him, or can't move forward from their past hurt. True forgiveness means never holding the thing a person did over their heads forever. One may not forget, you just don't rehash it or bring it up again. I like Nick. Everyone needs to read Sharleen's blog, she excelled herself on that last one.

At least he hasn't managed to ruin lives here...not yet anyway I will add also that I don't quite get how S completely dissed and belittled Jared's worth to K in his comments to producer yet its still about awful awful Nick. I do like S with K but anyone who resembles Alf and he does...needs to reexamine how to justify such an ego.

julychild wrote:I'll take a Nick any day over anyone who judges someone based on what they've heard or read in tabloids, without even trying to get to know that person. I may have missed it but I haven't seen Nick tweet a negative comment about the people who dislike him, or can't move forward from their past hurt. True forgiveness means never holding the thing a person did over their heads forever. One may not forget, you just don't rehash it or bring it up again. I like Nick. Everyone needs to read Sharleen's blog, she excelled herself on that last one.

No he hasn't tweeted anything negative.
Nor called people out on their hypocrisy saying he wants fame but they were on BIP.

Learning to let go of grudges is a sign of maturity and wisdom.
Nick tweeted that one should only love and not hold grudges.
Nick seems to be able to do that...not so much for other people.
For last years contestants both the lead and F1 are still tweeting about Nick and cannot let it go (that being said, please let's not get off topic and start talking about the past contestants).

I think that it makes sense why last years couple and this years couple both were/are snapchat couples and Nick doesn't use snapchat.
They are of the snapchat generation it seems.
Nick is more of a letter writer.

lleyki wrote:

I didn't get the feeling that Nick is falling in love with Kaitlyn. I think he likes her, they have a nice friendship and clearly very, very sexually attracted to each other but, and I can't believe I'm saying this as I can't stand her, I bought Nick's feelings for Andi. And maybe that is why as some have noted he seems okay and maybe he is. 

Just want to entertain this possibility...
Does anyone think it is possible that Nick realised the above and walked at F2? He respects her etc. but cannot propose to her, so in essence, pull a Brooks?

Could explain why he looks better in this year's post show photos, is tweeting support, is getting a good edit despite being at F2 again, Shawn not getting a great edit (in my personal opinion, but so many people are still pro-Shawn out there).

I mean all of the above can still happen if he was dumped, but I think it'd be emotionally easier for him to be looking happier and tweeting support if he did indeed walk...

Could also contribute to explaining K's lack of Nick acknowledgement in her blogs and the disgust microexpressions when talking about Nick that was sleuthed out in the body language thread a couple of weeks ago

So well said.