Andi Dorfman - The Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - #2

mindless wrote:I didn't say they never loved each other at all. I'm sure they at least thought they did, but there are different kinds of love and true love is when you love the other person for who they really are, with their faults and all. By the time they were "madly in love" and Andi "knew he was the one", they didn't even know each other yet. It takes time to really get to know someone, years even, and it seems as though they started having problems as soon as the rose-coloured glasses started coming off. 8 months is nothing really.
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Well, to me Andi still appears to be in love with Josh, faults and all. But they may not be compatible. I still think that can be a true love, even if it doesn't work out.

I also don't think Andi is misguided in saying her and Josh were "madly in love". When I hear that phrase I actually think of the early honeymoon stages of love and not the deep mature stages that come over time. I love my husband of 22 years deeply, but I would not claim to be "madly in love" with him. But I think the perception of love can be different for everyone. To Andi, who has had several boyfriends including a three year relationship, and claimed that she has been in love before, what she had with Josh obviously was at a different level than anything she had experienced before. To her, it felt like true love, and that's really all that matters.

Laudergirl wrote:

mindless wrote:I didn't say they never loved each other at all. I'm sure they at least thought they did, but there are different kinds of love and true love is when you love the other person for who they really are, with their faults and all. By the time they were "madly in love" and Andi "knew he was the one", they didn't even know each other yet. It takes time to really get to know someone, years even, and it seems as though they started having problems as soon as the rose-coloured glasses started coming off. 8 months is nothing really.
.

Well, to me Andi still appears to be in love with Josh, faults and all. But they may not be compatible. I still think that can be a true love, even if it doesn't work out.

I also don't think Andi is misguided in saying her and Josh were "madly in love". When I hear that phrase I actually think of the early honeymoon stages of love and not the deep mature stages that come over time. I love my husband of 22 years deeply, but I would not claim to be "madly in love" with him. But I think the perception of love can be different for everyone. To Andi, who has had several boyfriends including a three year relationship, and claimed that she has been in love before, what she had with Josh obviously was at a different level than anything she had experienced before. To her, it felt like true love, and that's really all that matters.

To me using words to describe "love" are subjective. They mean different things to different people. 
The bottom line is who chooses to stay together and who chooses not to stay together. 
You can have a relationship like Liz Taylor and Richard Burton and you can have a relationship like George Burns and Gracie Allen. 
Two totally different types of relationships. One stayed together through many years.  One tried it twice and failed twice even though the fire burned hot and bright at times.

IMO, The following remains relevant and valid in the context of the breakup as it was when it was first posted, right after Andi's season, in response to Andi saying Josh was her soulmate

Quote Dear Andi, Josh is Not Your Soul Mate
July 29, 2014 by Sean Lowe 70 Comments

AndiJosh

“Papa,” I once asked my WWII grandfather whom I call Papa, “is Mimi your soul mate?”

He looked at me a little funny. Papa and Mimi have been married over sixty years.

“Well, I don’t think there’s this one magical person out there for everyone. Proverbs 18:22 tells us, ‘The man who finds a wife finds a treasure, and he receives favor from the Lord.’ Note that the Word doesn’t say, ‘the man who finds that certain someone.’ It’s less specific than that. You find a wife, you get favor from God. It’s not all that complicated.”

“Well, you found Mimi.”

“There were other women before Mimi.” I couldn’t believe my ears. I couldn’t imagine Papa without Mimi. “And I probably could’ve made it work with one of them too. So, no – I don’t believe in soul-mates.”

This stubborn realism might be the reason why they’ve been happy all these years. A new study shows that people who view their spouses as “soul mates” are not as satisfied with their marriages as people who view their husband or wife as a “partner on a journey.” Presumably this is because “soul mates” shouldn’t fight when one “soul mate” pulls the covers off the other in the middle of the night or when the other refuses to shut the kitchen cabinets. Alternatively, people who view their marriage as “we’ve come a long way on this journey,” don’t seem to get as bogged down in the ups and downs of life.

Monday night, with millions of other Americans, I watched as Josh got down on one knee and proposed to Bachelorette star Andi. I couldn’t be happier for the new couple and wish them nothing but love and happiness going forward. If you felt a lump in your throat, imagine how Catherine and I must feel seeing the proposal. It feels like just yesterday I was the one on one knee proposing in Thailand.

The Bachelor and The Bachelorette always starts the season with a former bachelor (like me) giving advice to the current bachelor or bachelorette, things like what to expect on the first night, how to handle rose ceremonies, and all the other cliché stuff that’s covered every year. (Okay, so my advice didn’t do much for Juan Pablo.)

Truthfully, the advice should come at the end of the season. You see, what Andi and Josh don’t know is that they are just now embarking on the hard part. Nobody told Catherine and me that our toughest challenge would come after we rode those elephants off into the sunset. Falling in love while globetrotting the world was the easy part. Learning how to love someone you’ve spent a collective 20 hours with is the really hard part.

So if I had the chance to give Andi and Josh some advice after the fact? I think I’d tell them that the post-show/pre-marriage time frame will be one of the most challenging. But mainly, I’d tell them not to elevate the other to the level of “soul mate.” It sets everyone up for unrealistic expectations and emphasizes the romance over the hard work of building a relationship.

Yes, it’s definitely taken work for Catherine and me (Don’t tell me you’re surprised it took work to get this Texas former football player on the same page as the Seattle vegan graphic designer!)

I wonder what the researchers who conducted the “soul mate” versus “partners on a journey” study would do with The Bachelor? On one hand, I’m not sure if it’s possible to meet and get engaged on the show without overly romanticizing each other. On the other, have you ever heard people use the word “journey” more to describe a relationship?

Either way, Catherine and I are so excited for Andi and Josh, and hope this time without the lights and cameras will bring them ever closer to the time when the minister pronounces them — not “soul mates” – but “husband” and “wife.”

Congratulations, Andi and Josh! Unquote

Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/seanlowe/2014/07/dear-andi-josh-is-not-your-soul-mate/#ixzz3S2r77u6J

Laudergirl wrote:

mindless wrote:I didn't say they never loved each other at all. I'm sure they at least thought they did, but there are different kinds of love and true love is when you love the other person for who they really are, with their faults and all. By the time they were "madly in love" and Andi "knew he was the one", they didn't even know each other yet. It takes time to really get to know someone, years even, and it seems as though they started having problems as soon as the rose-coloured glasses started coming off. 8 months is nothing really.
.

Well, to me Andi still appears to be in love with Josh, faults and all. But they may not be compatible. I still think that can be a true love, even if it doesn't work out.

I also don't think Andi is misguided in saying her and Josh were "madly in love". When I hear that phrase I actually think of the early honeymoon stages of love and not the deep mature stages that come over time. I love my husband of 22 years deeply, but I would not claim to be "madly in love" with him. But I think the perception of love can be different for everyone. To Andi, who has had several boyfriends including a three year relationship, and claimed that she has been in love before, what she had with Josh obviously was at a different level than anything she had experienced before. To her, it felt like true love, and that's really all that matters.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but don't underestimate the power of the bubble. Every season we have several people repeating ad nauseam how they've "never felt like this before", which is just strange to me considering these are adults who've only spent hours with each other at that point. I can only assume that it's the bubble working its magic. While Andi may have had relationships before, I doubt they came with the perks and fan adoration that was there since the moment she met Josh, not to mention she couldn't have been that invested if this is the first time she's experienced heartbreak. Feelings are a complicated thing and they get easily heightened by external things. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few months she had a totally different perception of the relationship. That's why I think this interview was a bit too early, for her that is, not for show since they love the tears and drama.

mindless wrote:I didn't say they never loved each other at all. I'm sure they at least thought they did, but there are different kinds of love and true love is when you love the other person for who they really are, with their faults and all. By the time they were "madly in love" and Andi "knew he was the one", they didn't even know each other yet. It takes time to really get to know someone, years even, and it seems as though they started having problems as soon as the rose-coloured glasses started coming off. 8 months is nothing really.

I have to quote Mia on this, because this is my idea of true love as well:

MiaHawk wrote:One day Andi will look back and realize that this wasn't true love either. She was simply in lust with a guy she liked because of his perceived stature in the community, his perceived future earnings potential, and his athletic looks and jovial personality.  She enjoyed her time in the limelight which was based on her being part of this couple.  She was happy for him in her life, because with Josh came these perks.  She liked him and cared for him, but I stand firmly in my belief that she did not have true love with him because:

The "love" between Josh and Andi failed on nearly all of those accounts. The examples presented of things possibly tearing them (or couples in general) apart also wouldn't be issues if the love had been as described in that bible quote (I'm not religious at all, but love that quote, because I think it's so true). Their love clearly wasn't patient (if job situations or when to start a family were issues), it envied (why haven't we started wedding planning like everyone else?), it boasted (all their interviews and social media), it was selfish and easily angered (neither was willing to back down or supported each other), it delighted in evil (calling others not good people, holding grudges), it didn't trust, it didn't hope, it didn't persevere. It wasn't that special. IMO.

I agree with all your post mindless You and Mia could not of said it better

LoveGodTheMost wrote:IMO, The following remains relevant and valid in the context of the breakup as it was when it was first posted, right after Andi's season, in response to Andi saying Josh was her soulmate

Quote Dear Andi, Josh is Not Your Soul Mate
July 29, 2014 by Sean Lowe 70 Comments

AndiJosh

“Papa,” I once asked my WWII grandfather whom I call Papa, “is Mimi your soul mate?”

He looked at me a little funny. Papa and Mimi have been married over sixty years.

“Well, I don’t think there’s this one magical person out there for everyone. Proverbs 18:22 tells us, ‘The man who finds a wife finds a treasure, and he receives favor from the Lord.’ Note that the Word doesn’t say, ‘the man who finds that certain someone.’ It’s less specific than that. You find a wife, you get favor from God. It’s not all that complicated.”

“Well, you found Mimi.”

“There were other women before Mimi.”   I couldn’t believe my ears. I couldn’t imagine Papa without Mimi. “And I probably could’ve made it work with one of them too.  So, no – I don’t believe in soul-mates.”

This stubborn realism might be the reason why they’ve been happy all these years. A new study shows that people who view their spouses as “soul mates” are not as satisfied with their marriages as people who view their husband or wife as a “partner on a journey.”  Presumably this is because “soul mates” shouldn’t fight when one “soul mate” pulls the covers off the other in the middle of the night or when the other refuses to shut the kitchen cabinets.  Alternatively, people who view their marriage as “we’ve come a long way on this journey,” don’t seem to get as bogged down in the ups and downs of life.

Monday night, with millions of other Americans, I watched as Josh got down on one knee and proposed to Bachelorette star Andi. I couldn’t be happier for the new couple and wish them nothing but love and happiness going forward. If you felt a lump in your throat, imagine how Catherine and I must feel seeing the proposal.  It feels like just yesterday I was the one on one knee proposing in Thailand.

The Bachelor and The Bachelorette always starts the season with a former bachelor (like me) giving advice to the current bachelor or bachelorette, things like what to expect on the first night, how to handle rose ceremonies, and all the other cliché stuff that’s covered every year. (Okay, so my advice didn’t do much for Juan Pablo.)

Truthfully, the advice should come at the end of the season. You see, what Andi and Josh don’t know is that they are just now embarking on the hard part. Nobody told Catherine and me that our toughest challenge would come after we rode those elephants off into the sunset. Falling in love while globetrotting the world was the easy part.  Learning how to love someone you’ve spent a collective 20 hours with is the really hard part.

So if I had the chance to give Andi and Josh some advice after the fact?  I think I’d tell them that the post-show/pre-marriage time frame will be one of the most challenging.  But mainly, I’d tell them not to elevate the other to the level of “soul mate.”  It sets everyone up for unrealistic expectations and emphasizes the romance over the hard work of building a relationship.

Yes, it’s definitely taken work for Catherine and me  (Don’t tell me you’re surprised it took work to get this Texas former football player on the same page as the Seattle vegan graphic designer!)

I wonder what the researchers who conducted the “soul mate” versus “partners on a journey” study would do with The Bachelor?  On one hand, I’m not sure if it’s possible to meet and get engaged on the show without overly romanticizing each other.  On the other, have you ever heard people use the word “journey” more to describe a relationship?

Either way, Catherine and I are so excited for Andi and Josh, and hope this time without the lights and cameras will bring them ever closer to the time when the minister pronounces them — not “soul mates” – but “husband” and “wife.”

Congratulations, Andi and Josh! Unquote

Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/seanlowe/2014/07/dear-andi-josh-is-not-your-soul-mate/#ixzz3S2r77u6J

Thank you for sharing this.

It was mentioned above, but the thing that stood out for me was the flood of tears and Andi saying she had her heart broken for the first time... This immediately reminded me of Nick's letter... when he asked her whether she'd ever had her heart broken.  On some level (conscious? subconscious?) I believe Andi's admission was a direct reference/response (apology?) to Nick's letter.

'Fitting' then that Nick favorited this tweet from Andi....

Andi Dorfman @AndiDorfman  ·  Feb 15
As hard as this is, I have no regrets. I'm beyond grateful for the love I got to experience & the journey that changed my life #thebachelor

And so while I do think Nick is over Andi... I'm not surprised that he's taking an opportunity to 'connect' with her on this level. Is it too much to hope that Andi would finally overcome her pride enough to apologize to Nick??

Sue - I finally catch you, I've tried to avoid this thread, but feel need to comment on your question.
I sincerely think that will never happen - in her mind (and maybe somebody else thinks so too) she probably still thinks it's his fault for bringing the FS up, so he's to blame (maybe even for the later outcome).
If I'm wrong and she does (and I don't need to know) - or just thinks about it - it might be a great step towards a change. Her personal growth. I wish all good luck.

mindless wrote:I didn't say they never loved each other at all. I'm sure they at least thought they did, but there are different kinds of love and true love is when you love the other person for who they really are, with their faults and all. By the time they were "madly in love" and Andi "knew he was the one", they didn't even know each other yet. It takes time to really get to know someone, years even, and it seems as though they started having problems as soon as the rose-coloured glasses started coming off. 8 months is nothing really.

I have to quote Mia on this, because this is my idea of true love as well:

MiaHawk wrote:One day Andi will look back and realize that this wasn't true love either. She was simply in lust with a guy she liked because of his perceived stature in the community, his perceived future earnings potential, and his athletic looks and jovial personality.  She enjoyed her time in the limelight which was based on her being part of this couple.  She was happy for him in her life, because with Josh came these perks.  She liked him and cared for him, but I stand firmly in my belief that she did not have true love with him because:

The "love" between Josh and Andi failed on nearly all of those accounts. The examples presented of things possibly tearing them (or couples in general) apart also wouldn't be issues if the love had been as described in that bible quote (I'm not religious at all, but love that quote, because I think it's so true). Their love clearly wasn't patient (if job situations or when to start a family were issues), it envied (why haven't we started wedding planning like everyone else?), it boasted (all their interviews and social media), it was selfish and easily angered (neither was willing to back down or supported each other), it delighted in evil (calling others not good people, holding grudges), it didn't trust, it didn't hope, it didn't persevere. It wasn't that special. IMO.

Wow! Great post. Thank you for insight.

happygolucky wrote:Sue - I finally catch you, I've tried to avoid this thread, but feel need to comment on your question.
I sincerely think that will never happen - in her mind (and maybe somebody else thinks so too) she probably still thinks it's his fault for bringing the FS up, so he's to blame (maybe even for the later outcome).
If I'm wrong and she does (and I don't need to know) - or just thinks about it - it might be a great step towards a change. Her personal growth. I wish all good luck.

Hi Happy

I agree about Andi blaming Nick... and can imagine that Nick's ATFR comments (really, Andi's actions) were likely a catalyst for at least some of the tensions between Josh & Andi.  Like that piece of rotting fruit in the back of the refrigerator, you can't locate it, but it's rank and foul and permeates everything.

I do think Andi showed some honest, unguarded moments when she was crying and (to me) her words were a direct reference/response to Nick's letter so possibly, just possibly, as you note, she’s on a path toward deeper personal growth... I hope so for her sake.

To my eyes, the problem for Andi is that she's continuing to look for support from the public – tweeting and instagramming to encourage and fan responses, which it appears she’s getting a lot of.  But the problem with relying on others to determine what’s acceptable/not in your own life (subverting your instincts and feelings) is a recipe for disaster.  You become dependent on other’s opinions and incapable of making your own choices.

I love that Nick (what a guy, seriously!       ) keeps offering her an olive branch, being kind in his public responses to her situation, saying he'd be open to a friendship, favoriting her tweets, etc.. For her own personal growth, it would be great if she would take it…

Hugs, Sue  

SueSt wrote:

happygolucky wrote:Sue - I finally catch you, I've tried to avoid this thread, but feel need to comment on your question.
I sincerely think that will never happen - in her mind (and maybe somebody else thinks so too) she probably still thinks it's his fault for bringing the FS up, so he's to blame (maybe even for the later outcome).
If I'm wrong and she does (and I don't need to know) - or just thinks about it - it might be a great step towards a change. Her personal growth. I wish all good luck.

Hi Happy

I agree about Andi blaming Nick... and can imagine that Nick's ATFR comments (really, Andi's actions) were likely a catalyst for at least some of the tensions between Josh & Andi.  Like that piece of rotting fruit in the back of the refrigerator, you can't locate it, but it's rank and foul and permeates everything.

I do think Andi showed some honest, unguarded moments when she was crying and (to me) her words were a direct reference/response to Nick's letter so possibly, just possibly, as you note, she’s on a path toward deeper personal growth... I hope so for her sake.

To my eyes, the problem for Andi is that she's continuing to look for support from the public – tweeting and instagramming to encourage and fan responses, which it appears she’s getting a lot of.  But the problem with relying on others to determine what’s acceptable/not in your own life (subverting your instincts and feelings) is a recipe for disaster.  You become dependent on other’s opinions and incapable of making your own choices.

I love that Nick (what a guy, seriously!       ) keeps offering her an olive branch, being kind in his public responses to her situation, saying he'd be open to a friendship, favoriting her tweets, etc.. For her own personal growth, it would be great if she would take it…

Hugs, Sue  

I have to jump in and put out the other side of this. . I don't think Andi was thinking about Nick at all or his letter during the interview. After what he publicly did to her. Regardless of how things went down during the season, that is a deal breaker in my mind. I don't believe she will ever think positively about him again. I think she is truly heartbroken from her relationship with Josh. I do agree that she is trying to find meaning to what has happened with Josh and that can lead to personal growth. IMHO