Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion #2

notarose wrote:Might it not have been difficult for Josh to return from work every day to someone who was suddenly not the career woman he proposed to?  It's fine to change careers but to suddenly have no workplace to go to would have impacted Josh as although she would have her "Bachelorette" paycheque her days would look much different and since they lived together his would be the one having to emotionally support someone transitioning from a former job with long hours to essentially no job and therefore not much routine professional/intellectual stimulation plus no daily work contact with other people. Suddenly being engaged, living together, and having 1 at home most days is a lot of change.  But bottom line, strong couples weather all that life hands them; couples that can't are just not well matched and are better people with other people.

Alanna wrote:I don't understand what the Murrays being "Georgia Royalty" has anything to do with anything. Is Josh going to use his Georgia Royalty status to mess with her somehow? Tell the Waffle House to screw up her omelette order? Encourage the bouncers at the Ivy to deny her and the girls access? If every time a couple broke up and one of them had to move somewhere, we'd have a lot more colonies on the moon by now.

As for Andi doubting Josh and the relationship, clearly her woman's intuition was right on the money, otherwise they wouldn't have lasted a hot second after the show. Josh is a great guy and I'm sure he was being genuine when he said all those things about her, but he had no idea what he was saying imo, and Andi was right to doubt and doubt and doubt in retrospect.

aviej wrote:Why was Andi right to doubt him and his sincerity? What evidence do we have that he has not lived up to everything he said on the show? He was and is pretty clear on what he's looking for and that hasn't changed post show neither has his personality or priorities changed. Maybe the image that Andi presented on the show wasn't a true reflection on who she is in reality. Because IMO, Andi got to know Josh a lot more than he got to know her so she knew what she was getting into Josh didn't have such a clear insight. I believe when in the HTD if Josh hadn't gotten the nod from him family he never would have gone further with the show. I personally think that Andi is the one who changed, she wanted to be such a good Bachelorette that somewhere along the lines she lost herself in the process and became more "plastic" than real, IMO. I still believe that Josh and Andi would have had lasting love if Hollywood was not in the equation. Sometimes fame just changes people, and in this case I think for the worse.

Ash2214 wrote:I have some similar thoughts, aviej.

Let's not forget that according to RS, Andi dated someone starting once she got back from filming Juan Pablo's season up until she left filming for the bachelorette. This guy just happened to be a very, very wealthy real estate person down in ATL. That's makes it two relationships she broke off to go on the two shows, so if we're going to talk about trust issues..

I think it's going to take a very special breed of man to make it last with Andi. Not anything wrong about that, but that's my opinion. No guy from the show was going to be it.

aviej wrote:I agree with Nannymargie. In life you need a partner who would balance you off - not another extension of yourself. If you married someone who over analyzed and thought just like you it'll drive you crazy. I think when you marry someone opposite to yourself you can lean on each other's strengths and weaknesses in difficult times. Is JP the cerebral match to Ash? I doubt. But a relationship is not founded on brain power. IMO, the most important things in a relationship are God, love and communication. I do believe they were deeply in love, I do think they communicated to each other - maybe sometimes bickered, but who hasn't. Josh didn't care that he might get sent home, he was open and honest about his feelings for the lie detector test. I think Andi was most vulnerable to Josh in that she shared her deepest hurt of a past relationship with him.  Yes she and Nick communicated well on a philosophical sense but that's just philosophy. He could barely hold two sentences together when talking to her. Post show Andi did say that they did not show Josh's intellectual side. According to Andi, she had a greater love with Josh and that's what it came down to. I really hope their friends try to talk them into getting back together at least to give it another shot to say we tried again and failed, then they can really move on. But i do think they need to take a vacation together, outside of the US where they can just be themselves rather than being a brand and figure things out there.

Ash2214 wrote:^ It came from RS. He teased her about it in quite a few posts during Juan Pablo's season. She casually dated a loaded real estate guy once she got back from filming Juan Pablo's season and seemed to continue it throughout the season since he would mention it a few times.

The point I wanted to make that in all seriousness, she broke it off with two guys before she started filming each show. Was she really looking for forever on these shows knowing she had someone at home just mere weeks or days before she left? Like I said, she needs a special breed of guy. Someone loaded, quiet, and weak that will do what she wants. Again, nothing wrong with that and it's my opinion.

Alanna wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:I have some similar thoughts, aviej.

Let's not forget that according to RS, Andi dated someone starting once she got back from filming Juan Pablo's season up until she left filming for the bachelorette. This guy just happened to be a very, very wealthy real estate person down in ATL. That's makes it two relationships she broke off to go on the two shows, so if we're going to talk about trust issues..

I think it's going to take a very special breed of man to make it last with Andi. Not anything wrong about that, but that's my opinion. No guy from the show was going to be it.

Oh this is new info to me! I'm dying to know all about this fellow now. If they dated casually, I wouldn't be surprised if she goes back to him now, especially if he's older. I do think she started feeling insecure with Josh in part to his instability in his job(s) as well as her instability after quitting her job also. And like Mindless said, he probably stopped being as supportive/doting if his sm is any indication of what was happening behind the scenes and it made her even more nuts.

I doubt they showed up to LA planning to breakup in the next 2 days though. I assume they were squabbling, one of them "offered"  to break up and the other called the bluff with, "sounds good to me, let me just call our PR person real quick."

bleuberry wrote:I would be very surprised if Andi had real dreams of fame and celebrity. She can't achieve that living in Atlanta. And if I recall she had no plans on leaving.

Alanna wrote:

bleuberry wrote:I would be very surprised if Andi had real dreams of fame and celebrity. She can't achieve that living in Atlanta. And if I recall she had no plans on leaving.

IA. I don't understand where this is coming from since she seems to have no plans to move out of atl? She's not going to become famous there, so it seems to me while there was something, or many some things rather, clearly insurmountable in their relationship, Andi wanting fame wasn't one of them.

mindless wrote:

bleuberry wrote:I would be very surprised if Andi had real dreams of fame and celebrity. She can't achieve that living in Atlanta. And if I recall she had no plans on leaving.

I thought she said in some interview after the show that Josh living in Atlanta wasn't actually a bonus, since she was hoping to leave? I think it was Josh who was set on staying there.

aviej wrote:She said in the beginning it was a disadvantage to him being in ATL because she wanted to move somewhere. But when they got engaged, she switched and said it was definitely an advantage post show.

GuardianAngel wrote:That's exactly what she needs. A wealthy older guy who wants her as arm candy and she can shop till she drops looking fabulous with the title as socialite. She can blog and design T shirts all day in between pani's and pedi's.

No one will be interested in him, so she can be the focus of attention whenever they step out.

I really don't mean to be sarcastic. This is who I think she needs to meet up with, because she will never change. JMHO of who Andi Dorfman is.

As far as the two of them not being able to work on their relationship because of all the travelling, I'm sorry but I have to disagree. If two people are 100% in love with each other who trust each other completely with no doubts, nothing would stand in the way of their relationship, job family travelling girl pics, nothing.

IMO comments like we love each other but can't live with each other, means you don't really love each other.

Alanna wrote:

mindless wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:That's exactly what she needs. A wealthy older guy who wants her as arm candy and she can shop till she drops looking fabulous with the title as socialite.

You mean someone like Kelly's fiancé? Sorry, can't help being cynical about that love story.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Andi and Josh love story started nose diving when those two got engaged and Andi was like, "wtf am I doing right now with a normal dude?!?!"

Ash2214 wrote:

Alanna wrote:

mindless wrote:

You mean someone like Kelly's fiancé? Sorry, can't help being cynical about that love story.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Andi and Josh love story started nose diving when those two got engaged and Andi was like, "wtf am I doing right now with a normal dude?!?!"

I would be utterly shocked if she doesn't end up with someone like that. RS made it seem like that's how the real estate guy was. I think that's exactly what she wants and needs. Someone loaded, nerdy, quiet and will allow her to take control. I don't think she has aspirations to go to Hollywood, but I think she would love to do what she's doing now, which isn't a whole lot of anything or anything that requires her to have that normal every day job. And like I said, given she had two relationships, whether they were serious or not, before filming shows me that perhaps she didn't want a forever type of relationship necessarily.

She couldn't even go 3 months without getting in a casual relationship with a loaded guy

notarose wrote:

mindless wrote:

SueSt wrote:Andi summarized her attraction to each man many times on the show.  Josh was handsome, gregarious, goofy, ex-Athlete, warm, fun.  Nick was passionate, mature, thoughtful, analytical, articulate. (Of course each man had other characteristics too but these are the ones Andi kept referring to.)  She was pulled to each man for different reasons.

Andi chose her 'dream' guy', Josh, the guy she always wanted.  And it was the right choice, she had to choose Josh to see her dream through. And in this light, I guess, it would have been impossible for her to choose Nick. (As Atem keeps reminding us/me Andi chose Josh.   )  

So Andi’s destiny was to finally have what she said she always wanted.  But to my eyes, Andi’s experience showed her that her dream (what she said wanted) couldn't give her what she really needed...

And what follows are my thoughts based on my own life experiences.  I share them here knowing they will not resonate with those of you who believe Andi and Josh belong together…

I have suffered this type of ‘realignment’ in my life, and in my experience, there’s no way to know you are on the wrong path ahead of time; you only know in hindsight.  And confronting the end of a dream, I have tried (as I saw Andi do at the Premiere last week) to will the dream to work with every ounce of steely determination I could muster.  But desire and will is not enough if it’s the wrong dream.  

And you finally have to let go… and it leaves you shattered and confused; your whole life is upside down.  And afterwards, if you’re open (not blaming other people or circumstances), there can be a long period of thoughtful and often painful introspection to understand how you got to where you are.  But taking the time to understand your choices leads you out of the rubble and helps you find your way forward.

Despite how heartless Andi was towards Nick; karmaically, I hope she can find her way and move forward.

Well said! I agree. She went with her usual type again despite her reservations and I can only hope she realises now that it's not working out and it's time to realign. It sounds like both Andi and Josh have very little experience in serious relationships, so hopefully this will serve as a lesson on what it is they really need rather than want.  

Great summary Sue .  Mindless, your definition of "cerebral connection" was bang on .

Joining in the discussion, I never got the sense that Andi was naturally introspective; definitely agree with everyone that she is an analytical type of person.  To me, Sharleen Joynt was both analytical & introspective; Andi just analytical.  This would account for differencs in how each approached their break up with JPG - Sharleen stated what was missing and described her state of mind to JPG whilst Andi just listed her "concerns". 
I think both also share the trait of "intensity" but it is expressed in different ways.  Sharleen's intensity is quieter whereas Andi is by nature more assertive.  Different personality types. In other words, I'm not convinced Andi seeks a cerebral connection.  She did seem to hint that her relationship with Nick was foreign to her (first time) and it did seem she was describing a cerebral connection but I think her not being very introspective makes that type of relationship an uncomfortable event for her at this time in her life.

 to the discussion about "fun".  It is very important.  I like that Chris Soules, in an interview, stressed the importance of his "soul mate" sharing his sense of humour as it would be important to get them through the inevitable tough times in life.  Andi seems to put a lot of importance on "fun" as she mentioned it as being a barrier when she broke up with Nick and often used the word in interviews post show.  Fun can be defined in many ways... depends on the person and what it means to them.   I agree that Josh likes to goof around and has often shown a particular brand of "fun".  With the right person, he could make a day easy going and enjoyable. 

I think they broke up because they, or one of them,  found out/decided  they aren't well suited.  Momma Murray's statement about the engagement allowing them to essentially get to know each other makes me think they did and came to the realization (one or both of them - we will never know because TPTB always controls the message) that there would be no wedding. 

If the story about Andi dating someone before each show opportunity is true then it sounds like she thought, each time, the grass would be greener on the show or that being on the show was more of a priority than nurturing whatever relationship she had at the time. If the dating preshow stories are correct, it contradicts what she said in an interview pre-her own season.  She said she wasn't able to meet anyone in Atlanta.  But then again, she also said her  law career was very important yet quit.  As to the latter, I really have never heard of anyone needing to quit their job to work on a relationship or plan a wedding. Also, many have kept their jobs and still been able to take advantage of post- show opportunities.  (She could have "designed" her t-shirt and kept her day job).  If you have a passion for your career you manage both. All her pre-season publicity sold her as a "lawyer" package.  Look at Ashley H. who continued dentistry school while her season aired and Des who moved yet managed to align herself with a design firm to continue her passion for fashion.

 Might it not have been difficult for Josh to return from work every day to someone who was suddenly not the career woman he proposed to?  It's fine to change careers but to suddenly have no workplace to go to would have impacted Josh as although she would have her "Bachelorette" paycheque her days would look much different and since they lived together his would be the one having to emotionally support someone transitioning from a former job with long hours to essentially no job and therefore not much routine professional/intellectual stimulation plus no daily work contact with other people. Suddenly being engaged, living together, and having 1 at home most days is a lot of change.  But bottom line, strong couples weather all that life hands them; couples that can't are just not well matched and are better people with other people.

GuardianAngel wrote:Great post nr. The discrepancies that Andi makes every time she opens her mouth is the number one reason I disliked her. The number 2 reason is the the way she says it with a fake conviction with added fake facial expressions.

She has flipped flopped her way the last 1 1 /2 yrs that I really don't think she herself knows what she wants. She now has to re prioritize herself with goals but more importantly the desire to have a goal.

There are plenty of us who worked full time jobs, raised children, managed a home, took vacations, all with a loving husband.(some without) When you're a strong independent woman, you are organized in your life, and you love doing it all for your husband and your children. You forgo the little things, and are happy to do so. I can never see her at this point, wanting any of the above.

The fact that she hasn't changed her status on twitter, or still has a lot of pics up, IMO tells me Josh was the one who decided it was best to end the relationship. He's the one who immediately started making changes on SM. Whether he was told to or not, the changes are there, which tells me he's ready to move forward sooner than later.

We'll see a pic of her I'm sure at Kelly's engagement party in a couple of weeks.

mindless wrote:

notarose wrote:Might it not have been difficult for Josh to return from work every day to someone who was suddenly not the career woman he proposed to?  It's fine to change careers but to suddenly have no workplace to go to would have impacted Josh as although she would have her "Bachelorette" paycheque her days would look much different and since they lived together his would be the one having to emotionally support someone transitioning from a former job with long hours to essentially no job and therefore not much routine professional/intellectual stimulation plus no daily work contact with other people. Suddenly being engaged, living together, and having 1 at home most days is a lot of change.  But bottom line, strong couples weather all that life hands them; couples that can't are just not well matched and are better people with other people.

I think this definitely could've been an issue. I was looking for something on Youtube last night and ended up rewatching their interview from Pool After Dark. At one point Andi was going on about how she's obsessed about Kate Middleton and her baby news and Josh was like "I don't follow the gossip stuff. I just follow my sports and go to work every day". I just got this weird vibe from him, like in his mind he's thinking that Andi spends her days reading Dailymail and shopping for expensive shoes, while he's working his bum off to pay the rent. Maybe I'm just projecting but there were many instances in that interview where Josh seemed to try to bring the conversation back to being grateful and wanting to help people rather than the shallow stuff Andi was going on about. I just got the sense that he was already a bit disillusioned by her at that point.

mindless wrote:

notarose wrote:Might it not have been difficult for Josh to return from work every day to someone who was suddenly not the career woman he proposed to?  It's fine to change careers but to suddenly have no workplace to go to would have impacted Josh as although she would have her "Bachelorette" paycheque her days would look much different and since they lived together his would be the one having to emotionally support someone transitioning from a former job with long hours to essentially no job and therefore not much routine professional/intellectual stimulation plus no daily work contact with other people. Suddenly being engaged, living together, and having 1 at home most days is a lot of change.  But bottom line, strong couples weather all that life hands them; couples that can't are just not well matched and are better people with other people.

I think this definitely could've been an issue. I was looking for something on Youtube last night and ended up rewatching their interview from Pool After Dark. At one point Andi was going on about how she's obsessed about Kate Middleton and her baby news and Josh was like "I don't follow the gossip stuff. I just follow my sports and go to work every day". I just got this weird vibe from him, like in his mind he's thinking that Andi spends her days reading Dailymail and shopping for expensive shoes, while he's working his bum off to pay the rent. Maybe I'm just projecting but there were many instances in that interview where Josh seemed to try to bring the conversation back to being grateful and wanting to help people rather than the shallow stuff Andi was going on about. I just got the sense that he was already a bit disillusioned by her at that point.

Amberish wrote:I tend to believe the reason it didn't work was, after all said and done, the feeling of "love" couldn't make it past the honeymoon phase. Although we talk about these couples being madly in love, we keep being told by unsuccessful and successful couples alike, that it's really more like madly in lust --- because they haven't a clue of who the other really is prior to the engagement and especially in the light of day when in a relationship out in the open --- and that if love happens, it's after wrap.

If the relationship had lasted longer, like Jillian and Ed, as an example, I might say it was real love that became interrupted for a reason, but doubt that is what we're seeing here.

IMO, moving in together and Andi not going back to a 60 hour workweek is an indication that this couple gave it their all and, they simply concluded, it just wasn't there.

Also, no way did they just break up; they've obviously have been breaking up for a while now --- most noticeably since diehard fans recognized a shift in SM habits during the holidays.

To me, deciding to end their relationship explains why they weren't fully prepared for the Bachelor premier, as if they didn't intend to go and, for one reason or another, probably summoned to show up because the two are still under contract.