Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[sbolduc]

Agreed. I think it is one of the most important lessons in life, that when you have done something or someone wrong to own up to it and make a sincere apology.

Absolutely, one thing I respect most is a person who can admit when they are wrong, put their ego aside and apologize. At this point I just want to be happy for all three parties, Andi and Josh as a couple and Nick as an individual, that is why I hope that all three of them just LET IT GO.

I hope they all learnt something from this experience. Not one of them is perfect or innocent in any of this.

I would say Josh is innocent, considering when you look at the roles Andi and Nick played in this scenario.

I think for the most part you are right, there hasn't been much that Josh has done/said that has made me pause, there have been a couple things he has said that weren't amazing but not horrible either (i.e. when he said no one liked Nick and he had no friends). I am fine with Josh standing up for Andi, I would think anyone who is protective would. And in terms of Josh's response in the interview to who was douchey, I really had no real issue with that either, he didn't call him douchey the interviewer did and he didn't actually say Nick's name. I still don't think that Josh is perfect, but then again no one is

[alwaystulips]

As for the future, I have some questions about Nick for those of you who are keeping up with him.  

Has he hired a PR firm or agent to assist him going forward? 

It sounds like he loves Chicago and wants to stay there.  Has he said he enjoys his current work and want to continue in it? 

Has he been in contact with other male veterans of the show who live in Chicago, e.g. Frank and Ed, who might give him perspective about their experience?

I am not sure if anyone has replied to your post Tulips, I haven't been following him religiously but from what I gather on here and SM etc, it doesn't appear he has hired a PR firm or agent at this time, I could be wrong so please correct me if so. It also appears that he has returned to his job, he has been seen out with people from Salesforce.com frequently since returning home, including a VP (Vice President) from his office (this I believe was after the show was done). For the most part he seems to be hanging out mostly with friends he had prior to the show, with the exception of Nick S, who lives in Chi-town, and JJ came to see him for Lolla.

I have not seen him in contact with Frank or Ed or other big alums, at least not publicly.

Thank you for the reply.  I was afraid no one took my questions seriously since I expressed my strong dislike for many of Nick's actions in the same post.  

It will be interesting to see if Nick has any more interviews what his responses will now be about his experience on the show.

[luvlady345]

Per   Chariots--

Personally I do not really see Josh as the winner,  he is just the last schmuck standing unlucky enough to bear this humilation.   Nick will always be the invisible elephant whenever they needed to appear in public or grant interviews.  

You gave me my dessert for the evening. I enjoyed it!    

Well Chariots, since Josh is the last schmuck standing, I guess you feel like that about most of the F1 couples like Chris who had to bear the humiliation of Des chasing after Brooks and basically declaring her love for him all season long and when he was leaving I guess he was unlucky enough to bear the humiliation also and let's not forget about Ashley and JP with her Bentley woes, right the invisible elephant in the room for most of these couples    

[luvlady345]

For crying out loud. I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I just need to respond to this. I'm also going to take Andi out of this equation as best as I can too.

Nick told millions of people that Andi had sex with him. Their family and friends were watching. For goodness sake, Lauren was holding a charity event where every single person there heard that. For almost three months, Nick was holding on to the relationship he had with Andi. He tried to get into contact with her more than once. Nick wrote her a letter where he told her how much he loved her and his relationship with her. In that letter he also essentially called Josh the easy route and questioned her decision and basically asked for a second chance. I'm sure that deleted scene of Nick trashing Josh and basically mocking the Murray name didn't sit well with Josh either. Heck, two days after Josh got engaged to Andi Nick was on a plane spoiling the whole season and telling someone some pretty mean things about Josh. Saying he has a bad temper, only "eats, shits and sleeps" is mean. No way around that.

Should Josh really be saying kind and sweet things about Nick? No. No way. Also, in every single interview I have seen and heard from Josh he really hasn't said anything awful. He said he doesn't associate himself with Nick or people like him. He called Nick's comments unclassy, which they 100% were no matter which way you spin it. In the latest interview, he was asked who the biggest douche bag was in the house. Josh's response? I don't need to say his name. Wow! That's so horrendous! Considering what Nick did and not just on the ATFR, but during the almost three month period where Josh was trying to build a life and a relationship with his new fiancee and Nick was holding onto the past and trying to get Josh's fiancee back, I would say Josh has handled himself pretty damn well.  

When Nick did his media rounds, some people here said Nick should have just avoided some of the questions, particularly when he appeared to be bragging that he had sex with Andi and that it was "effortless" and they weren't "lacking any chemistry" while others thought there was no way he could possibly do that in an interview. You apparently can't avoid answering questions the way the interviewers want you to. Well, Andi and Josh are the ones being asked in the interviews about their experiences with Nick. So they should get the same pass right?

Ya, of course Nick can say he wishes them well now. He must feel better knowing he was able to embarrass and hurt both Josh and Andi on more than one occasion.

~THIS~   

[Lucas15]

I truly feel that the "infamous" question was very much on Nick's mind, he made multiple references to it, when they broke up "I think you took it too far", "how you respond to me sometimes, I thought you meant it", in the van in DR "I definitely think she took it too far", on the hot seat when Andi was there "it was hard to watch, not to mention the things you think about that you don't see on TV", TPTB knew that Nick was constantly thinking about this question and Chris kept him on the hotseat just long enough for him to finally spill it. Not saying there was a bug in his ear or anything, or excusing him for what he did but TPTB knew it really bothered him and had they cut his time when it was supposed to be cut then we wouldn't all still be talking about it on this thread. All IMO.

It may be helpful to review what at least one dumped ex contestant told us about the "limo ride of shame". What we see is the contestant riding in the limo talking to the camera with a lot of edits (and sometimes even a VO). But what really is going on is there's a contestant, a camera man and a producer in the limo; the producer is asking questions and the camera is filming the answers and later on it's all edited into what we see and we never hear the questions. But this contestant told us that she wasn't giving them the answers they wanted (they wanted her to talk about how broken up she was by being sent home and she wasn't broken up at all about it) so they drove her around for 4 hours until they got her to say what they wanted her to say.

So when Nick said in the van "I definitely think she took it too far" - any guesses what the producer asked him next? Mine is it was something like "What do you think she did that was "too far"? and Nick answered it was the act of making love in the FS. So the producers knew exactly how Nick felt and exactly what he meant by "taking it too far" and they had him on film saying that. They just decided that was not the most dramatic way of dropping that "bombshell" - they saved it for the ATFR when it would be much more dramatic. And even then CH had to prompt Nick to ask what he asked with a leading question "Is there something you want to ask Andi?". Of course CH knew exactly what question Nick wanted to ask Andi - he'd known what it was for months and so did every producers on the show.

[Kashathediva]

The tricky part is knowing when and if you do a wrongdoing. We all have trouble and wrestle with this. I know I do at times. It's not something I'm proud of; it's a human issue I try to work through.
Yanno, Ash for me, I have enough difficulty on a daily basis taking care of me and my goof ups--I am not going to take what celebs on a reality show do seriously or attempt to interpret or judge them. At least I hope I won't/don't.  
I'm even glad Emily found happiness. Now Effie---I can't go there yet. But I don't wish him ill!   

I'm confused as to why this post is directed at me, especially since there are a few people involved with this discussion right now and given the words used, I'm not sure if you're trying to put words in my mouth or what. I've never wished ill will to any of the contestants, including Nick. I'm giving my thoughts on him, just like others here have given their thoughts on Andi...  

For me, it's as simple as Andi made mistakes. Nick made mistakes. I don't know where their heads were at when they did and said the things they did. Only they know. For me, all I know is, Andi shouldn't have slept with Nick, but she did for her own reasons. I don't think Nick should have said any of the sh*t things he said about numerous people, but he did for his own reasons. I'm not sure where I've wished any of them ill will, because I haven't. I don't know these people, but I'm sure in real life - outside of the bubble, they're all great. I'm in agreement though that maybe if there were sincere apologizes given, particularly on Nick's side, then none of us would be having this debate right now because it wouldn't be such a topic.

I'm sorry if you took it negative. It was in response to the innocent/not innocent issue post right before my post, that is all. (which I think you authored) Putting any other spin on it was not on my agenda.
It was not meant as a negative retort, just how I have a hard enough time dealing with me---as obviously noted in this apology post.  
I wake up and turn on the news this morning, and hear the re-hash of the American journalist beheaded. I hear about the racial unrest in STL(my family lives there, I was born and raised until 18).
I have a very hard time taking this show seriously, but certainly apologize to you if you thought ill of my post as it was not the intention, but only to ponder the word "innocent" when applied to a cast person or any person for that matter.

[albean99]

I truly feel that the "infamous" question was very much on Nick's mind, he made multiple references to it, when they broke up "I think you took it too far", "how you respond to me sometimes, I thought you meant it", in the van in DR "I definitely think she took it too far", on the hot seat when Andi was there "it was hard to watch, not to mention the things you think about that you don't see on TV", TPTB knew that Nick was constantly thinking about this question and Chris kept him on the hotseat just long enough for him to finally spill it. Not saying there was a bug in his ear or anything, or excusing him for what he did but TPTB knew it really bothered him and had they cut his time when it was supposed to be cut then we wouldn't all still be talking about it on this thread. All IMO.

It may be helpful to review what at least one dumped ex contestant told us about the "limo ride of shame". What we see is the contestant riding in the limo talking to the camera with a lot of edits (and sometimes even a VO). But what really is going on is there's a contestant, a camera man and a producer in the limo; the producer is asking questions and the camera is filming the answers and later on it's all edited into what we see and we never hear the questions. But this contestant told us that she wasn't giving them the answers they wanted (they wanted her to talk about how broken up she was by being sent home and she wasn't broken up at all about it) so they drove her around for 4 hours until they got her to say what they wanted her to say.

So when Nick said in the van "I definitely think she took it too far" - any guesses what the producer asked him next? Mine is it was something like "What do you think she did that was "too far"? and Nick answered it was the act of making love in the FS. So the producers knew exactly how Nick felt and exactly what he meant by "taking it too far" and they had him on film saying that. They just decided that was not the most dramatic way of dropping that "bombshell" - they saved it for the ATFR when it would be much more dramatic. And even then CH had to prompt Nick to ask what he asked with a leading question "Is there something you want to ask Andi?". Of course CH knew exactly what question Nick wanted to ask Andi - he'd known what it was for months and so did every producers on the show.

IA that they knew going into the ATFR that they wanted Nick to bring that up. Andi played into their hands by being so cold when Chris asked her if she loved Nick. I'm sure they were very excited when that happened but they probably had a good idea by that point what she would say. Their method is to ask questions & get the response they want more than actually tell someone to say something so it all worked for them that night. I don't think either Nick or Andi are the villains or even the victims but the producers had a big part to play in this also.

[Litta123]

^^Interesting speculation. Would it be far fetched to think that TPTB were also speaking in Andi's ear about Nick, saying things like this guy won't give up, he ruined your season, etc? Knowing that Andi has that hard edge to her personality, were TPTB attempting to manipulate her response as well?

If the belief is that Nick was manipulated to ask his question on ATFR, which I tend to believe because CH wouldn't give up, would it be reasonable to consider that Andi was emotionally set up to be cold against Nick?

[SueSt]

IMO, in order to forgive somebody you first have to make an effort to understand why he did what he did.  Then, regardless of whether or not you feel he was justified, you make a conscious decision to let the issue go and you forgive him for his wrong doing. You don't ever have to forget about the wrong doing, but you forgive the person for his human flaws or error. Forgiveness is not a sign of weakness.  It actually takes more strength and courage to forgive than most appreciate. And, forgiveness is the act of an individual.  It's not something that you do as a couple or a family.  It is an individual's choice to forgive.

In this case, we presume that Josh needs to forgive Nick for his wrong doing of asking Andi why she made love to him if she wasn't in love with him. IMO, it might help Josh to understand Nick a bit better if he were to watch all of the episodes of the season.  Then, he could see where the guy was coming from. I wouldn't suggest that Josh rely only on Andi's side of the story, because Andi has a vested interest in putting Nick down in order to make herself look better in Josh's eyes.  If she is the victim of big bad Nick, then Knight Josh will rally to her side.  Remember, she has a ring on her finger estimated to be worth...how much?...(IDK the amount) that she only gets to keep if they stay together for 2 years or marry.  Could that be why she wants to wed so soon this spring?  maybe.  

So, to have the best understanding of Nick and move towards forgiveness, why doesn't Josh just sit down with Nick and have a conversation? I don't understand these twitter swipes and snide comments in the media.  That's not going to move the process forward.  That just solidifies that there are 2 camps, 2 adversaries.  Maybe time will help.  But I have a feeling that if Josh truly wants to put this whole thing behind him and forgive Nick, then he will have to do so as an individual, without Andi by his side. I feel that Andi enjoys too much the idea of an opponent.

Mia, this is an awesome and thoughtful post; thanks.   

I love what you say about forgiveness... that it's really about the person that finds it in their heart to forgive... and that of course is all about accepting that we are ALL capable of doing and saying things that require forgiveness... no one is perfect or above making mistakes... and like you say, when you put yourself in the other person's shoes and can accept (even for a moment) that in different circumstances you might do the same... then you can forgive... and then the healing on BOTH sides can begin.

[SueSt]

I'm not someone who has followed Nick post-show really at all, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. But has Nick ever apologized for all the crappy things he's said about Josh both on the show and post-show, how he tried to track down Josh's fiance repeatedly and even went so far as to basically ask Andi for a second chance, and not to mention the now infamous question? Perhaps Josh doesn't see forgiveness and kindness as necessary because he doesn't feel like he's received that from Nick. And Nick simply wishing them well doesn't make up for all the crappy things Nick did/said.

Yes, Nick has apologized about Josh numerous times.

[SueSt]

For crying out loud. I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I just need to respond to this. I'm also going to take Andi out of this equation as best as I can too.

Nick told millions of people that Andi had sex with him. Their family and friends were watching. For goodness sake, Lauren was holding a charity event where every single person there heard that. For almost three months, Nick was holding on to the relationship he had with Andi. He tried to get into contact with her more than once. Nick wrote her a letter where he told her how much he loved her and his relationship with her. In that letter he also essentially called Josh the easy route and questioned her decision and basically asked for a second chance. I'm sure that deleted scene of Nick trashing Josh and basically mocking the Murray name didn't sit well with Josh either. Heck, two days after Josh got engaged to Andi Nick was on a plane spoiling the whole season and telling someone some pretty mean things about Josh. Saying he has a bad temper, only "eats, shits and sleeps" is mean. No way around that.

Should Josh really be saying kind and sweet things about Nick? No. No way. Also, in every single interview I have seen and heard from Josh he really hasn't said anything awful. He said he doesn't associate himself with Nick or people like him. He called Nick's comments unclassy, which they 100% were no matter which way you spin it. In the latest interview, he was asked who the biggest douche bag was in the house. Josh's response? I don't need to say his name. Wow! That's so horrendous! Considering what Nick did and not just on the ATFR, but during the almost three month period where Josh was trying to build a life and a relationship with his new fiancee and Nick was holding onto the past and trying to get Josh's fiancee back, I would say Josh has handled himself pretty damn well.  

When Nick did his media rounds, some people here said Nick should have just avoided some of the questions, particularly when he appeared to be bragging that he had sex with Andi and that it was "effortless" and they weren't "lacking any chemistry" while others thought there was no way he could possibly do that in an interview. You apparently can't avoid answering questions the way the interviewers want you to. Well, Andi and Josh are the ones being asked in the interviews about their experiences with Nick. So they should get the same pass right?

Ya, of course Nick can say he wishes them well now. He must feel better knowing he was able to embarrass and hurt both Josh and Andi on more than one occasion.

In the ET interview with Nick a clip of Andi showed her saying she wasn't embarrassed, was a woman and could say and do as she saw fit. So she definitely needs to get her story straight. If she is embarrassed that she slept with Nick a week before she got engaged, this has nothing to do with Nick and everything to do with HER choices...

[Kashathediva]

^^Interesting speculation. Would it be far fetched to think that TPTB were also speaking in Andi's ear about Nick, saying things like this guy won't give up, he ruined your season, etc? Knowing that Andi has that hard edge to her personality, were TPTB attempting to manipulate her response as well?

If the belief is that Nick was manipulated to ask his question on ATFR, which I tend to believe because CH wouldn't give up, would it be reasonable to consider that Andi was emotionally set up to be cold against Nick?

I would bet on it.  

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