Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[mindless]

I think that Nick watching the FRC right before appearing on the ATFR and hearing Andi tell Josh that she loved him from the very beginning must have been crushing.  If he had had time to really digest what he saw in Andi's declaration of love for Josh, he might have been able to control his response to the situation a little better.

I might have been dreaming this, but I think he said in some interview that he didn't see the proposal. I have no idea where though, so I'm not certain. But I can imagine them not showing it to him, so he'd still be in that hopeful mindset while meeting Andi. Of course he knew she was engaged, but without seeing their OTT love declarations with his own eyes, he didn't necessarily realize just how in love they were. Her demeanor seemed to kill any lingering glimmers of hope though, since he didn't even know what to say at first. And then hearing she never loved him, that he didn't really have a shot even if Josh wasn't there, was just a total shock.

[stuckinsc]

Lucas, this is a great post, may I add to the last section.  Nick was wrong to discount all the other men.  It is a mistake we have seen made many times before.  So I do understand that criticism of that.  But in addition to producers we saw Andi herself reward Nick for his bad behavior.  She was happy and gladly kissed Nick when he stole her at the cocktail party where he already had a rose.  We saw her when he interrupted Brian even though he already had the rose for HTD comfort Nick and not tell him it was rude and she would talk to him when she was done.  She also gave him that HTD rose, that she kept telling them through out the date was the most important of the season.  These are direct things we saw Andi do.  In addition, Nick admitted his skepticism to her.  She made it a point to keep him around, even after he said FILY in Venice and after he said ILY and she slept with him in FS.  I know she may have had no choice in DR with FS rose, since she had sent Chris home already, but she could have also spared him a LCD, we saw, Emily, Des, and Ali all skip LCDs.  She did let him go the morning of the FRC and skip picking out the ring.  But according to her words the night before she told him to be happy for all he had on the show and asked him to describe their lives in Chicago.  She kept her part up until the morning of the FRC.  I do compare this to Brad, who was so obviously withdrawn from Chantal on the LCD.  You can, once you have your mind made up make it through a LCD without adding to the pain.

I think these are good additions for discussion and I think we could add to them the "impromptu 1-1 date in Venice and also the hotel room key visit.

For both of those I don't see Andi's fingerprints on them at all - they were planned by the producers - especially blatant was the hotel room key because no hotel in the world is going to give out a room number to someone without photo ID proving they are who they claim they are, and a call to the room to ask permission of the occupant to give out room information. The effect of all of these things would be to further convince Nick that he is "the one" and the "front runner" because he's going to perceive (and be told) that Andi is behind all of them when in fact she isn't. She's going along with the show just like leads before her and leads after her have done.

The only thing about some of the bolded items is that IMHO they could go either way - they could be Andi on her own but they could also be producers driven. For example - if they know in advance (and they do know in advance - they have to make travel plans and get contracts signed and they need advance notice to do all that) who's going to get a HTD they may have the lead give out that group date rose during the group date because that makes that person look more like a front runner. The lead doesn't really care if they plan to take that person on a HTD anyway. The basic rule of thumb is the lead determines who gets a rose but the producers determine how and when - which they orchestrate for maximum drama.

I tend to make a basic assumption that everything we see is no accident and the producers are behind everything in some way. It's actually very rare that a lead goes out on a limb for a contestant - the most noteworthy example of one that did was Brad when he told Emily she was getting a rose and a HTD. In fact if someone told me that all the key events of this season were "engineered" by the producers to set Nick and Andi on a collision course and Josh to end up as F1 my reaction would only be "Hmm - easy enough to do and I've seen them do worse."

I don't fault Andi for the no date card in Venice or even the midnight visit.  That was TPTB.  Her reaction and being thrilled that Nick came to her door, is all her.  In addition to that, while Nick already had his HTD rose at that point according to the filming schedule, then she had to keep him.  But at HTDs she could have let him go, or even she could have waited on Chris and kept him until F2.  She knew Nick loved her, she knew he wanted to marry him, he told her many, many times. She kept him after all of it.

I agree that they may have told her to give Nick the HTD rose, but the most important rose crap repeatedly, that is all Andi.

I really do wish that Josh had watched the whole season.  I don't want it to change his mind, I just think maybe it might help him understand Nick a little more.  I didn't understand the not watching with Chris and Des, but grew to appreciate it and appreciated it with Nikki and JPG, but neither of those F1s showed this kind of animosity to F2 or in Chris's case F3.  

I want to keep liking Josh and these interviews and such make it hard.

[Kashathediva]

Per   Chariots--

Personally I do not really see Josh as the winner, he is just the last schmuck standing unlucky enough to bear this humilation. Nick will always be the invisible elephant whenever they needed to appear in public or grant interviews.

You gave me my dessert for the evening. I enjoyed it!    

[sbolduc]

I think that TPTB are really the ones that decided to steal Josh's moment from him.  They set it up with the video of Nick in Milwaukee and airing the delivery of Nick's letter to Andi.  Heck, they even published the letter the day of the ATFR telecast.  TPTB are the ones that determined that Andi and Josh would only have the last 15 minutes of the ATFR, not Nick.  

   Clearly they had invested a lot of time and money filming in Milwaukee and showing footage of Nick at the MTA giving the letter to CH and then interviewing Nick before anything else happened. This was all TPTB and it was all about the drama they knew would surround the first meeting. I would not be the slightest bit surprised if they also strongly suggested to Andi that she not meet with Nick until the live ATFR and that it was TPTB - not Andi - that really drove that decision. They would have filmed it anyway no matter when the meeting happened but it was always going to be more dramatic if it happened live.

Not to mention the 45 minutes they spent on Nick on the ATFR. All I kept thinking when Nick was up there was why the heck is Chris keeping him on here so long, it is just painful to watch and he wasn't really saying anything. He could barely put a sentence together for Andi. I must say if Nick was acting then he definitely needs to quit his day job and move to Hollywood.

I truly feel that the "infamous" question was very much on Nick's mind, he made multiple references to it, when they broke up "I think you took it too far", "how you respond to me sometimes, I thought you meant it", in the van in DR "I definitely think she took it too far", on the hot seat when Andi was there "it was hard to watch, not to mention the things you think about that you don't see on TV", TPTB knew that Nick was constantly thinking about this question and Chris kept him on the hotseat just long enough for him to finally spill it. Not saying there was a bug in his ear or anything, or excusing him for what he did but TPTB knew it really bothered him and had they cut his time when it was supposed to be cut then we wouldn't all still be talking about it on this thread. All IMO.

[MiaHawk]

I think that TPTB are really the ones that decided to steal Josh's moment from him.  They set it up with the video of Nick in Milwaukee and airing the delivery of Nick's letter to Andi.  Heck, they even published the letter the day of the ATFR telecast.  TPTB are the ones that determined that Andi and Josh would only have the last 15 minutes of the ATFR, not Nick.  

   Clearly they had invested a lot of time and money filming in Milwaukee and showing footage of Nick at the MTA giving the letter to CH and then interviewing Nick before anything else happened. This was all TPTB and it was all about the drama they knew would surround the first meeting. I would not be the slightest bit surprised if they also strongly suggested to Andi that she not meet with Nick until the live ATFR and that it was TPTB - not Andi - that really drove that decision. They would have filmed it anyway no matter when the meeting happened but it was always going to be more dramatic if it happened live.

Not to mention the 45 minutes they spent on Nick on the ATFR. All I kept thinking when Nick was up there was why the heck is Chris keeping him on here so long, it is just painful to watch and he wasn't really saying anything. He could barely put a sentence together for Andi. I must say if Nick was acting then he definitely needs to quit his day job and move to Hollywood.

I truly feel that the "infamous" question was very much on Nick's mind, he made multiple references to it, when they broke up "I think you took it too far", "how you respond to me sometimes, I thought you meant it", in the van in DR "I definitely think she took it too far", on the hot seat when Andi was there "it was hard to watch, not to mention the things you think about that you don't see on TV", TPTB knew that Nick was constantly thinking about this question and Chris kept him on the hotseat just long enough for him to finally spill it. Not saying there was a bug in his ear or anything, or excusing him for what he did but TPTB knew it really bothered him and had they cut his time when it was supposed to be cut then we wouldn't all still be talking about it on this thread. All IMO.

Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner.   

[Guest]

What exactly did Josh say that was offensive? That he doesn't want to say the name of who he thinks was the douche in the house? or did he say something else?

Maybe it is his seat next to Andi that influences our opinion of him.  Or the fact that many had claimed that if Nick won and made that video he was a sore winners.  Andi and Josh are both coming off as sore winners.

Nick made a mistake and since has done nothing but wish the happy couple well.  Since then, instead of doing the Christian thing and forgiving the mistake the happy couple has continued to show anger and made snippy comments.  

I liked Josh a lot before.  Now I truly do think he and Andi are a good match.  Please marry and stay away from others.  As far as Atlanta loving Josh and Andi.  Most of my friends who live in Atlanta, I have many from the five years I lived there and the fact that 50% of my high school classmates settled there, don't know Andi or Josh or give a dang about them.

I think, Stuckinsc, you are being a little too harsh on Josh. He really hasn't said or done anything offensive to Nick post show that I have seen. He said he thought Nick's mentioning the sex in the FS was classless. That wasn't an insult, It's how he felt, as did many people. He said he didn't care much for Nick in the house, as did many of the guys as evidenced by what was shown in the episodes. It seems like Nick has a bit of a superiority complex and disregarded the other guys. That would be an unlikable quality. How is that insulting or non Christian of Josh to not care to be around him when he treats others that way. As far as the recent radio interviews, Josh has made it clear that he was aware of the sex between Andi and Nick, and that he could not get angry with her because it was part of the process for her to make her decision. Therefore, he was not jealous or angry that it happened. He just felt it was a low blow how Nick announced it to the world since it was a private thing. Whether you agree with that or not, it doesn't matter because it was a polarizing subject and many disagree. But it certainly doesn't make Josh a bad guy for feeling that way. As far as Nick being referred to as a douche, Josh did not say his name, it's assumed he was referring to Nick, and you can blame the radio host for that one. Josh hasn't initiated any conversation about Nick and has only said that they have moved forward and dealt with it. The TV and radio hosts just keep drudging it up. Again, I just don't see how you can be so disappointed in Josh's character for any of these things.

[stuckinsc]

What exactly did Josh say that was offensive? That he doesn't want to say the name of who he thinks was the douche in the house? or did he say something else?

Maybe it is his seat next to Andi that influences our opinion of him.  Or the fact that many had claimed that if Nick won and made that video he was a sore winners.  Andi and Josh are both coming off as sore winners.

Nick made a mistake and since has done nothing but wish the happy couple well.  Since then, instead of doing the Christian thing and forgiving the mistake the happy couple has continued to show anger and made snippy comments.  

I liked Josh a lot before.  Now I truly do think he and Andi are a good match.  Please marry and stay away from others.  As far as Atlanta loving Josh and Andi.  Most of my friends who live in Atlanta, I have many from the five years I lived there and the fact that 50% of my high school classmates settled there, don't know Andi or Josh or give a dang about them.

I think, Stuckinsc, you are being a little too harsh on Josh. He really hasn't said or done anything offensive to Nick post show that I have seen. He said he thought Nick's mentioning the sex in the FS was classless. That wasn't an insult, It's how he felt, as did many people. He said he didn't care much for Nick in the house, as did many of the guys as evidenced by what was shown in the episodes. How is that insulting or non Christian?? As far as the recent radio interviews, Josh has made it clear that he was aware of the sex between Andi and Nick, and that he could not get angry with her because it was part of the process for her to make her decision. Therefore, he was not jealous or angry that it happened. He just felt it was a low blow how Nick announce it to the world since it was a private thing. Whether you agree with that or not, it doesn't matter because it was a polarizing subject and many disagree. But it certainly doesn't make Josh a bad guy for feeling that way. As far as Nick being referred to as a douche, Josh did not say his name, it's assumed he was referring to Nick, and you can blame the radio host for that one. Josh hasn't initiated any conversation about Nick and has only said that they have moved forward and dealt with it. The TV and radio hosts just keep drudging it up. Again, I just don't see how you can be so disappointed in Josh's character for any of these things.

I blame Josh for letting Andi sit next to him and say all of her nasty little comments and supporting her.  I really hoped that Josh would help Andi be a better person, instead she seems to be dragging him down with him.

All those nasty tweets by Kelly and she is their new bff in ATL. 

Sorry, I wish I could see Josh being a positive influence on Andi.  He is the guy who forgave the person who called him a Florida douche, but he supports Andi and keeps answering questions about Nick instead of just saying we are happy and have moved past it.

I want better from Josh, instead as Mrs. Murray announced on FB, Josh has met his match and doesn't mind her snippy behavior.

[Guest]

Maybe it is his seat next to Andi that influences our opinion of him.  Or the fact that many had claimed that if Nick won and made that video he was a sore winners.  Andi and Josh are both coming off as sore winners.

Nick made a mistake and since has done nothing but wish the happy couple well.  Since then, instead of doing the Christian thing and forgiving the mistake the happy couple has continued to show anger and made snippy comments.  

I liked Josh a lot before.  Now I truly do think he and Andi are a good match.  Please marry and stay away from others.  As far as Atlanta loving Josh and Andi.  Most of my friends who live in Atlanta, I have many from the five years I lived there and the fact that 50% of my high school classmates settled there, don't know Andi or Josh or give a dang about them.

I think, Stuckinsc, you are being a little too harsh on Josh. He really hasn't said or done anything offensive to Nick post show that I have seen. He said he thought Nick's mentioning the sex in the FS was classless. That wasn't an insult, It's how he felt, as did many people. He said he didn't care much for Nick in the house, as did many of the guys as evidenced by what was shown in the episodes. How is that insulting or non Christian?? As far as the recent radio interviews, Josh has made it clear that he was aware of the sex between Andi and Nick, and that he could not get angry with her because it was part of the process for her to make her decision. Therefore, he was not jealous or angry that it happened. He just felt it was a low blow how Nick announce it to the world since it was a private thing. Whether you agree with that or not, it doesn't matter because it was a polarizing subject and many disagree. But it certainly doesn't make Josh a bad guy for feeling that way. As far as Nick being referred to as a douche, Josh did not say his name, it's assumed he was referring to Nick, and you can blame the radio host for that one. Josh hasn't initiated any conversation about Nick and has only said that they have moved forward and dealt with it. The TV and radio hosts just keep drudging it up. Again, I just don't see how you can be so disappointed in Josh's character for any of these things.

I blame Josh for letting Andi sit next to him and say all of her nasty little comments and supporting her.  I really hoped that Josh would help Andi be a better person, instead she seems to be dragging him down with him.

All those nasty tweets by Kelly and she is their new bff in ATL. 

Sorry, I wish I could see Josh being a positive influence on Andi.  He is the guy who forgave the person who called him a Florida douche, but he supports Andi and keeps answering questions about Nick instead of just saying we are happy and have moved past it.

I want better from Josh, instead as Mrs. Murray announced on FB, Josh has met his match and doesn't mind her snippy behavior.

I can appreciate that, but I think you are asking Josh to be a saint in this case. He can be Christian and have Christian values, and still be flawed. Nick said and did hurtful things to Josh, including trying to steal his girl back. He may just not be at the point of forgiveness yet.

[Ash2214]

For crying out loud. I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I just need to respond to this. I'm also going to take Andi out of this equation as best as I can too.

Nick told millions of people that Andi had sex with him. Their family and friends were watching. For goodness sake, Lauren was holding a charity event where every single person there heard that. For almost three months, Nick was holding on to the relationship he had with Andi. He tried to get into contact with her more than once. Nick wrote her a letter where he told her how much he loved her and his relationship with her. In that letter he also essentially called Josh the easy route and questioned her decision and basically asked for a second chance. I'm sure that deleted scene of Nick trashing Josh and basically mocking the Murray name didn't sit well with Josh either. Heck, two days after Josh got engaged to Andi Nick was on a plane spoiling the whole season and telling someone some pretty mean things about Josh. Saying he has a bad temper, only "eats, shits and sleeps" is mean. No way around that.

Should Josh really be saying kind and sweet things about Nick? No. No way. Also, in every single interview I have seen and heard from Josh he really hasn't said anything awful. He said he doesn't associate himself with Nick or people like him. He called Nick's comments unclassy, which they 100% were no matter which way you spin it. In the latest interview, he was asked who the biggest douche bag was in the house. Josh's response? I don't need to say his name. Wow! That's so horrendous! Considering what Nick did and not just on the ATFR, but during the almost three month period where Josh was trying to build a life and a relationship with his new fiancee and Nick was holding onto the past and trying to get Josh's fiancee back, I would say Josh has handled himself pretty damn well.  

When Nick did his media rounds, some people here said Nick should have just avoided some of the questions, particularly when he appeared to be bragging that he had sex with Andi and that it was "effortless" and they weren't "lacking any chemistry" while others thought there was no way he could possibly do that in an interview. You apparently can't avoid answering questions the way the interviewers want you to. Well, Andi and Josh are the ones being asked in the interviews about their experiences with Nick. So they should get the same pass right?

Ya, of course Nick can say he wishes them well now. He must feel better knowing he was able to embarrass and hurt both Josh and Andi on more than one occasion.

[soccermom333]

For crying out loud. I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I just need to respond to this. I'm also going to take Andi out of this equation as best as I can too.

Nick told millions of people that Andi had sex with him. Their family and friends were watching. For goodness sake, Lauren was holding a charity event where every single person there heard that. For almost three months, Nick was holding on to the relationship he had with Andi. He tried to get into contact with her more than once. Nick wrote her a letter where he told her how much he loved her and his relationship with her. In that letter he also essentially called Josh the easy route and questioned her decision and basically asked for a second chance. I'm sure that deleted scene of Nick trashing Josh and basically mocking the Murray name didn't sit well with Josh either. Heck, two days after Josh got engaged to Andi Nick was on a plane spoiling the whole season and telling someone some pretty mean things about Josh. Saying he has a bad temper, only "eats, shits and sleeps" is mean. No way around that.

Should Josh really be saying kind and sweet things about Nick? No. No way. Also, in every single interview I have seen and heard from Josh he really hasn't said anything awful. He said he doesn't associate himself with Nick or people like him. He called Nick's comments unclassy, which they 100% were no matter which way you spin it. In the latest interview, he was asked who the biggest douche bag was in the house. Josh's response? I don't need to say his name. Wow! That's so horrendous! Considering what Nick did and not just on the ATFR, but during the almost three month period where Josh was trying to build a life and a relationship with his new fiancee and Nick was holding onto the past and trying to get Josh's fiancee back, I would say Josh has handled himself pretty damn well.  

When Nick did his media rounds, some people here said Nick should have just avoided some of the questions, particularly when he appeared to be bragging that he had sex with Andi and that it was "effortless" and they weren't "lacking any chemistry" while others thought there was no way he could possibly do that in an interview. You apparently can't avoid answering questions the way the interviewers want you to. Well, Andi and Josh are the ones being asked in the interviews about their experiences with Nick. So they should get the same pass right?

Ya, of course Nick can say he wishes them well now. He must feel better knowing he was able to embarrass and hurt both Josh and Andi on more than one occasion.

    Wonderful Ash and I agree as do others.    Thanks for defending Josh and Andi...  They are having way too much fun with each other and I am sure don't give "it" a second thought.  I only came in here to support you and your post.  All IMHO of course.      

[MiaHawk]

IMO, in order to forgive somebody you first have to make an effort to understand why he did what he did.  Then, regardless of whether or not you feel he was justified, you make a conscious decision to let the issue go and you forgive him for his wrong doing. You don't ever have to forget about the wrong doing, but you forgive the person for his human flaws or error. Forgiveness is not a sign of weakness.  It actually takes more strength and courage to forgive than most appreciate. And, forgiveness is the act of an individual.  It's not something that you do as a couple or a family.  It is an individual's choice to forgive.

In this case, we presume that Josh needs to forgive Nick for his wrong doing of asking Andi why she made love to him if she wasn't in love with him. IMO, it might help Josh to understand Nick a bit better if he were to watch all of the episodes of the season.  Then, he could see where the guy was coming from. I wouldn't suggest that Josh rely only on Andi's side of the story, because Andi has a vested interest in putting Nick down in order to make herself look better in Josh's eyes.  If she is the victim of big bad Nick, then Knight Josh will rally to her side.  Remember, she has a ring on her finger estimated to be worth...how much?...(IDK the amount) that she only gets to keep if they stay together for 2 years or marry.  Could that be why she wants to wed so soon this spring?  maybe.  

So, to have the best understanding of Nick and move towards forgiveness, why doesn't Josh just sit down with Nick and have a conversation? I don't understand these twitter swipes and snide comments in the media.  That's not going to move the process forward.  That just solidifies that there are 2 camps, 2 adversaries.  Maybe time will help.  But I have a feeling that if Josh truly wants to put this whole thing behind him and forgive Nick, then he will have to do so as an individual, without Andi by his side. I feel that Andi enjoys too much the idea of an opponent.

[Ash2214]

To be honest, in my opinion, people are making this whole thing into a much bigger deal than what it needs to be. Good lord, these three people went through an intense few months for various reasons. It's normal they're not going to like each other.

It appears that all three have moved on. Josh and Andi happened to do two interviews this week where both interviewers asked them questions about Nick. To be honest, the questions were kind of silly. One jokingly talked about Nick, Marcus and Josh's shoe sizes, to which Andi and Josh both laughed and Josh basically just said you have to do what you got do. Andi was asked how Nick even made it to the F2 and she just said along the lines of, "I don't know. There were all different types of guys there."

Yes, when asked who was the biggest douche bag there, Josh gave a fine answer and Andi said does his name rhyme with the body part. But guess what, if an ex of mine did with Nick did to Andi, I would be saying far more about him than saying his name rhymed with ****.

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