Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[eirekay]

What exactly did Josh say that was offensive? That he doesn't want to say the name of who he thinks was the douche in the house? or did he say something else?

Maybe it is his seat next to Andi that influences our opinion of him.  Or the fact that many had claimed that if Nick won and made that video he was a sore winners.  Andi and Josh are both coming off as sore winners.

Nick made a mistake and since has done nothing but wish the happy couple well.  Since then, instead of doing the Christian thing and forgiving the mistake the happy couple has continued to show anger and made snippy comments.  

I liked Josh a lot before.  Now I truly do think he and Andi are a good match.  Please marry and stay away from others.  As far as Atlanta loving Josh and Andi.  Most of my friends who live in Atlanta, I have many from the five years I lived there and the fact that 50% of my high school classmates settled there, don't know Andi or Josh or give a dang about them.

I lost respect for Josh with this quote from one of his interviews the next day: "He always tried to be my friend and nobody really liked him that much ..." Firstly, I don't think it's true, although it might be Josh's perspective but secondly, Josh was the "winner" and the comment was just plain unnecessary and unbefitting a winner.

[MiaHawk]

[quote="Kashathediva"]

My opinion of Nick is based solely on a highly edited tv show and a very small amount of SM that has been shared here on this site.  I don't follow any of these people regularly on SM.

My original impression of Nick on night 1 was that he was sincere in his search for love yet skeptical of the process of the show.  As episodes aired I thought he was a bit too smug and could see that he was rubbing the other guys the wrong way.  I chalked that up to the competition aspect of the process and his dry, sarcastic sense of humor  That type of humor can come across as serious to those who might have a pre-existing bias against him already. Whereas, if you previous had a fondness for him, you might be able to see the humor in his statements.

I am, however, always concerned about a contestant on this show that has a difficult time playing well with the other contestants.  Typically, it means something is 'off' about that person. obviously there will always be cliques within the group, sometimes based on common interests, age, or location of residence.  It happens every season, but to see so many guys saying negative things about Nick was a definite red flag for me.  

Now, post show we have seen many men defending Nick.  Some more than others.  Do we know why this is?  Have they seen that they had misjudged him during filming? Do they have guilt over the fact that their comments during filming have contributed to an onslaught of SM hatred towards Nick?  Have they a new-found appreciation for Nick now that they are all part of the "I've been dumped by Andi club"? Do they now see that he was sincere throughout the process and that he did fall in love with Andi?  Do they feel sorry for Nick in how he was used by Andi and think "There but by the grace of God go I"?  Is it that they shared unique experiences and bonded during this show's filming?  Do they genuinely like Nick's company? Do they think he is generally a nice guy?

Some posters would like Nick fans to compartmentalize their fondness for Nick so that it has absolutely nothing to do with Andi.  Some of this is possible, but it's not completely possible in my opinion, because I have gotten to known him through the process of interacting with Andi on this show.  Same as the other guys who were on the show with Nick who are now friendly with him and enjoy his company.  There is a complex mix of reasons that they and I might like Nick as a person post show.

I will speak only for myself when I say that how a person acts under pressure and in bad times is much more telling about their character and personality than is how they act when it is sunny and butterflies abound.  And when I hold Nick up to scrutiny on how he has conducted himself through this show (when asked tough questions by Andi, when confronted by the other guys, when receiving constructive criticism from Andi, and what I know about after filming and ATFR), with the exception of when he asked Andi why she made love to him if she never loved him, I think as a person he has done a good job.  And that is why, while Nick has never been my favorite contestant, I do continue to give him credit for the things that I feel he has handled well and done well. I think he has come across to me as a mature and balance person.  He has been put through the ringer by this show, and I am disappointed to see Andi, of all people, continue to be mean towards him.  It is totally unneccessary and says more about her than it does about Nick.

I enjoyed reading your post and think you made some excellent points. I agree with it. (I guess this answers your question the other day!)  [/quote

Kasha, Awww,   

[MiaHawk]

delete

[MiaHawk]

[quote="Lucas15"]

Some posters would like Nick fans to compartmentalize their fondness for Nick so that it has absolutely nothing to do with Andi.  Some of this is possible, but it's not completely possible in my opinion, because I have gotten to known him through the process of interacting with Andi on this show.

ITA - it's impossible to discuss Nick without extending discussion to Andi because it was their interaction that is central to both characterizations. But you have also proved that it's possible to both criticize and also defend Nick without defending or criticizing Andi because that's exactly what you've done in this post. Congratulations MiaHawk!


First, Lucas, I thank you for this compliment^. I would say that the reason I was able to do what is bolded above is because I wrote one stand alone post where I simply stated my thoughts in a very "delicate" manner. If I had other posters responding to my post, disagreeing with my post, or asking me specific questions, or asking me for specific examples of some of the more general things I said, I foresee that I would criticize Andi and a back and forth would ensue.

I have no problem with a back and forth. I call it a conversation or even a debate. I like both of those. I don't take it personally when others disagree with me, and I have learned that it is futile to try to defend one of these contestants til the grave. I've learned that I can walk away from a thread even if somebody else gets the last word, and I'm okay if I'm in a minority as long as I have been open minded and still come to the conclusions that I do.

I still have not watched the 2 hour finale. I watched ATFR and didn't feel the need to go watch the finale. I don't really know if I should because I have a feeling that watching it will only solidify some of my more negative feelings Andi. Like Nick, I'm trying to move on from this show and put it all in my rear view mirror.

[Lucas15]

Lucas, this is a great post, may I add to the last section.  Nick was wrong to discount all the other men.  It is a mistake we have seen made many times before.  So I do understand that criticism of that.  But in addition to producers we saw Andi herself reward Nick for his bad behavior.  She was happy and gladly kissed Nick when he stole her at the cocktail party where he already had a rose.  We saw her when he interrupted Brian even though he already had the rose for HTD comfort Nick and not tell him it was rude and she would talk to him when she was done.  She also gave him that HTD rose, that she kept telling them through out the date was the most important of the season.  These are direct things we saw Andi do.  In addition, Nick admitted his skepticism to her.  She made it a point to keep him around, even after he said FILY in Venice and after he said ILY and she slept with him in FS.  I know she may have had no choice in DR with FS rose, since she had sent Chris home already, but she could have also spared him a LCD, we saw, Emily, Des, and Ali all skip LCDs.  She did let him go the morning of the FRC and skip picking out the ring.  But according to her words the night before she told him to be happy for all he had on the show and asked him to describe their lives in Chicago.  She kept her part up until the morning of the FRC.  I do compare this to Brad, who was so obviously withdrawn from Chantal on the LCD.  You can, once you have your mind made up make it through a LCD without adding to the pain.

I think these are good additions for discussion and I think we could add to them the "impromptu 1-1 date in Venice and also the hotel room key visit.

For both of those I don't see Andi's fingerprints on them at all - they were planned by the producers - especially blatant was the hotel room key because no hotel in the world is going to give out a room number to someone without photo ID proving they are who they claim they are, and a call to the room to ask permission of the occupant to give out room information. The effect of all of these things would be to further convince Nick that he is "the one" and the "front runner" because he's going to perceive (and be told) that Andi is behind all of them when in fact she isn't. She's going along with the show just like leads before her and leads after her have done.

The only thing about some of the bolded items is that IMHO they could go either way - they could be Andi on her own but they could also be producers driven. For example - if they know in advance (and they do know in advance - they have to make travel plans and get contracts signed and they need advance notice to do all that) who's going to get a HTD they may have the lead give out that group date rose during the group date because that makes that person look more like a front runner. The lead doesn't really care if they plan to take that person on a HTD anyway. The basic rule of thumb is the lead determines who gets a rose but the producers determine how and when - which they orchestrate for maximum drama.

I tend to make a basic assumption that everything we see is no accident and the producers are behind everything in some way. It's actually very rare that a lead goes out on a limb for a contestant - the most noteworthy example of one that did was Brad when he told Emily she was getting a rose and a HTD. In fact if someone told me that all the key events of this season were "engineered" by the producers to set Nick and Andi on a collision course and Josh to end up as F1 my reaction would only be "Hmm - easy enough to do and I've seen them do worse."

[Lucas15]

I still have not watched the 2 hour finale.  I watched ATFR and didn't feel the need to go watch the finale.  I don't really know if I should because I have a feeling that watching it will only solidify some of my more negative feelings Andi.  Like Nick, I'm trying to move on from this show and put it all in my rear view mirror.     

I can't really comment on what you might or might not conclude. So very often reading what someone has posted about what they saw is colored by their specific bias and a careful look at what actually happened may (or may not) leave you with a different impression. In general I think anyone should look with their own eyes rather than just assume what they read or what someone else saw is all there is to see. There were some interesting things said during the FRC that confirmed one plausible explanation of the ending, just as one example.

[eirekay]

I still have not watched the 2 hour finale.  I watched ATFR and didn't feel the need to go watch the finale.  I don't really know if I should because I have a feeling that watching it will only solidify some of my more negative feelings Andi.  Like Nick, I'm trying to move on from this show and put it all in my rear view mirror.     

I can't really comment on what you might or might not conclude. So very often reading what someone has posted about what they saw is colored by their specific bias and a careful look at what actually happened may (or may not) leave you with a different impression. In general I think anyone should look with their own eyes rather than just assume what they read or what someone else saw is all there is to see. There were some interesting things said during the FRC that confirmed one plausible explanation of the ending, just as one example.

I think that Nick watching the FRC right before appearing on the ATFR and hearing Andi tell Josh that she loved him from the very beginning must have been crushing. If he had had time to really digest what he saw in Andi's declaration of love for Josh, he might have been able to control his response to the situation a little better.

[charriotoffire]

What exactly did Josh say that was offensive? That he doesn't want to say the name of who he thinks was the douche in the house? or did he say something else?

Maybe it is his seat next to Andi that influences our opinion of him.  Or the fact that many had claimed that if Nick won and made that video he was a sore winners.  Andi and Josh are both coming off as sore winners.

Nick made a mistake and since has done nothing but wish the happy couple well.  Since then, instead of doing the Christian thing and forgiving the mistake the happy couple has continued to show anger and made snippy comments.  

I liked Josh a lot before.  Now I truly do think he and Andi are a good match.  Please marry and stay away from others.  As far as Atlanta loving Josh and Andi.  Most of my friends who live in Atlanta, I have many from the five years I lived there and the fact that 50% of my high school classmates settled there, don't know Andi or Josh or give a dang about them.

I lost respect for Josh with this quote from one of his interviews the next day: "He always tried to be my friend and nobody really liked him that much ..."  Firstly, I don't think it's true, although it might be Josh's perspective but secondly, Josh was the "winner" and the comment was just plain unnecessary and unbefitting a winner.

A lot of people feel sorry for Josh because he didnt even get to enjoy his F1 winner moment.  The same episode that he was revealed the winner,   here comes Nick revealing to the whole world that he slept with his fiance way before he did.  The poor guy didnt even enjoy his winning moment,  the guy who was not liked by anybody in the house kind of stolen his thunder.

Personally I do not really see Josh as the winner,  he is just the last schmuck standing unlucky enough to bear this humilation.   Nick will always be the invisible elephant whenever they needed to appear in public or grant interviews.  

I am not a fan of Nick but I appreciate that he has set this precedent in the history of this franchise, that  if the Bachelor/Bachelorette uses your body and emotions to secure a proposal and doesnt even want to bother treating you like a human being after the fact,  you have the right to call her/him for it.   That is why there was one article in Huff Post calling Nick a "feminist" because women are almost always the receiving end of this treatment after being used as a sex object (and if it happened in the context of a game show like the Bachelorette, the more it needs to be exposed)

Josh probably knows Nick is the real winner here or he will not even bother putting him down and sounding like a schoolyard bully. Kinda hard to compete with his brother, Andi and Nick because really people are more compelled to talk about them.

[Lucas15]

I think that Nick watching the FRC right before appearing on the ATFR and hearing Andi tell Josh that she loved him from the very beginning must have been crushing.  If he had had time to really digest what he saw in Andi's declaration of love for Josh, he might have been able to control his response to the situation a little better.

It got even worse than that. On the ATFR CH asked Andi if she was ever in love with Nick and she said "No and I was very careful never to say that I was". Not only didn't Nick have time to process what had been said he got another punch in the gut seconds later.

[eirekay]

A lot of people feels sorry for Josh because he didnt even get to enjoy his F1 winner moment. The same episode that he was revealed the winner, here comes Nick revealing to the whole world that he slept with his fiance way before he did. The poor guy didnt even enjoy his winning moment, the guy who was not liked by anybody in the house kind of stolen his thunder.

Thank you for that perspective, sincerely!

I think that TPTB are really the ones that decided to steal Josh's moment from him. They set it up with the video of Nick in Milwaukee and airing the delivery of Nick's letter to Andi. Heck, they even published the letter the day of the ATFR telecast. TPTB are the ones that determined that Andi and Josh would only have the last 15 minutes of the ATFR, not Nick.

[charriotoffire]

A lot of people feels sorry for Josh because he didnt even get to enjoy his F1 winner moment. The same episode that he was revealed the winner, here comes Nick revealing to the whole world that he slept with his fiance way before he did. The poor guy didnt even enjoy his winning moment, the guy who was not liked by anybody in the house kind of stolen his thunder.

Thank you for that perspective, sincerely!

I think that TPTB are really the ones that decided to steal Josh's moment from him.  They set it up with the video of Nick in Milwaukee and airing the delivery of Nick's letter to Andi.  Heck, they even published the letter the day of the ATFR telecast.  TPTB are the ones that determined that Andi and Josh would only have the last 15 minutes of the ATFR, not Nick.  

Ey Eirekay I loved your post about the farm on the other forum! You are quite the writer!.

I really can't imagine the season without Nick really. I mean I just watched Andy's season because of Nick's plane video and got curious about the F1 "who only eats sh*ts and sleeps" and does nothing else".

I mean its bad enough that Josh really didn't have any memorable or funny one liners. No gimmicks, (like Chris' poetry, Cahterine's little notes, Ed's drunken shenanigans) Josh was just a big sweaty blah, who only talks about baseball and his brother. Andi should have been very greatful to Nick for making her season memorable. Too bad Josh and Andi knew they needed to talk about Nick some more to keep people interested in them.

[Lucas15]

I think that TPTB are really the ones that decided to steal Josh's moment from him.  They set it up with the video of Nick in Milwaukee and airing the delivery of Nick's letter to Andi.  Heck, they even published the letter the day of the ATFR telecast.  TPTB are the ones that determined that Andi and Josh would only have the last 15 minutes of the ATFR, not Nick.  

   Clearly they had invested a lot of time and money filming in Milwaukee and showing footage of Nick at the MTA giving the letter to CH and then interviewing Nick before anything else happened. This was all TPTB and it was all about the drama they knew would surround the first meeting. I would not be the slightest bit surprised if they also strongly suggested to Andi that she not meet with Nick until the live ATFR and that it was TPTB - not Andi - that really drove that decision. They would have filmed it anyway no matter when the meeting happened but it was always going to be more dramatic if it happened live.

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