Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[emad0722]

I think the hardest thing for Andi is Nick really pushed her with hard questions and her response was to be cold. I also believe her coldness pushed nick too far also.

But here's a bit of irony about Andi's coldness because it was just that which provided closure for Nick. Nick said:

When she came out it was like an emotionally charged environment. I had just got done watching the finale like everyone else. I was a little taken back by her demeanor ... was a little cold. There seemed to be a complete lack of empathy and I think I was so taken back by that.

But then he also said:

"I think Monday night was a lot of closure for me, that I needed. Not necessarily about the question but her whole demeanor and the process…I was just a little taken back by that," he explained.

As Nick evidenced his feelings in his letter to Andi "if by some miracle you changed your mind and were willing to give us a shot" I think he held on to some hope that sometime along the line Andi would feel she had made a mistake in choosing Josh and that would create an opportunity for them to re-unite. I really do feel sorry for Nick; it was obvious when I saw him literally shaking at the ATFR that he was experiencing strong emotions and that had to be a very disturbing way to have his hopes dashed. But until he finally could come to grips with the finality of the "break-up" there's no way he could move forward with his future, he was stuck (emotionally) in his past. There probably was a better way to have given Nick closure but I don't know if there was any easy way to do it and Andi was the only one who could give Nick closure.

Lucas I don't doubt her demeanor helped him move on but the end certainly does not justify the means. If that is the case then nicks actions should also be excused as it helped Andi realise she picked the the right one.

I would like to make the point though that it seems Andi and Josh aren't rising above it as per their radio interview. They are entitled to give their opinion but they can't call nick classless and that they are riding above it then refer to him as a douche etc.

honestly let's move on guys ;) I'm not a big Andi/Josh fab hence I don't follow them on SM or their interviews (I just get snipits from here) but hating anyone is so time consuming. Ugh.

[mindless]

Regarding the bolded, I think it's pretty ironic that Josh really hasn't done anything in terms of causing any problems with Nick during the show or any sm against Nick after the show, but I think the whole reason the Andi/Nick and their lead/f2 relationship is so bad is because of him. IMO, if Nick didn't start with the video on the plane with all the stuff about Josh, then the sm posting pics of himself with Andi, followed by the letter saying Josh isn't right for her, trying to see her knowing she's with Josh, and the deleted scenes where Nick and Andi are having a pup named Murray, Andi wouldn't have been so cold to Nick at atfr, he probably wouldn't have felt the need to punish her with the fs talk, and their relationship would be cordial. Josh really has been a silent participant here though

I kind of can't believe people took that dog comment as some serious insult. It was just a joke. Nick has a very dry sense of humour and I think it was lost on many of the guys during the show, maybe because his perceived arrogance rubbed them the wrong way. But it seems many of them have "got him" after the show, like Brian who he was talking to when he made that comment. In any case, the guys I know rip on each other all the time, especially when there's some rivalry going on. It's just friendly banter, nothing more. I guess Nick doesn't laugh at his own jokes, which makes some people take them seriously.

I can see how Andi would be a bit put off by the stuff he said on the plane, but it was just a hurt man venting to a family member. He didn't know it would be made public. Yes, he was speaking in public, but he didn't mention any names, so it wasn't his intention to defame anyone. And maybe she should have made it clear to him that Josh was #1 instead of just shrugging. Would have saved him some confusion perhaps. Nick and Josh are such different people, and Andi went on about her mental connection with Nick so many times, I can see why he'd have trouble wrapping his mind around the thought that Andi had a better connection with Josh. It's not an insult to Josh.

[Catdwoman50]

Catching up with the good convos

I find it funny that those of you who dislike "meandi"  love to listen to all her interviews

I don't love to listen to Andi.  It just gets in my face on this thread so I will listen to what she or Josh said before I respond.  That is just the fair thing to do.  Why respond to an item I don't know about or listened to, that only makes me stupid and ignorant.  In addition to that, yes I would like to hear what she says exactly when she talks about, or even alludes to Nick.

I'm curious if the Nick fans have ever really tried see things from Andi's standpoint? She admitted she cared about Nick, and that he was definitely her #2, but that her feelings were stronger for Josh.

Yes, I have.  I gave her an excuse with JPG, an excuse with Eric's dismissal, an excuse during tribute for Eric, even an excuse during the breakup with Nick.  ATFR, I was waiting for a redemption, sadly I was disappointed - yet again.  Yes there is no dispute Josh is the right one for her, there is no dispute that she was under a lot of stress.  BUT I don't think I can find another excuse for the lack of compassion not admitting to having feelings for Nick but stronger for Josh before (Nick had a verbal diarrhea) on TV. I even would have liked to hear that she used FS as criteria for the F1 - just something that would make her "REAL."  With that said, I can't find any more excuses for her for still being mean spirited after the fact.  She can also move on and not allude to her stalker and the douchebag.  My 02 cents

Lucas - totally agree, I think Nick found a silver lining out of all that (excuse my word choice) ugliness - I meant the situation ATFR.  I wonder if she's still doing that now through her comments (should I add tweets she favors) to shake off her stalker?

mindless - I too am making excuses for Nick (dry humor), his real reaction to the breakup - saying those things about Josh, for saying they had sex out loud on TV.  Net/net at the heat of the moment both parties made mistakes and trying to move on.  I think the moving on part is still scratching old scabs on both sides because we can't seem to see the other side of the fence.  Jodi fans can't seem to appreciate why Nick is still in the limelight, while we can't seem to understand why continue the "nastiness" - it's a free country.  Live and let live.

That is my 22 cents

[alwaystulips]

Mods, if I am wrong, please correct me.  The latest round of discussion was prompted by a post which it seems to me is for the Andi/Josh discussion thread; not the Nick one.  My reply to recent action of Nick's was the last post prior to it. 

As for Nick, here are my thoughts about his actions during and post show.  When one:

1.  Refuses to acknowledge the possibility of other relationships on the show (stating I'm #1, there is no 2 or 3)
2.  Does not hear the words "I'm sorry" (yes, this was said during the breakup)
3.  Belittles someone's fiance by name loudly on a public airplane
4.  Criticizes someone they love loudly on a public airplane
5.  Pursues someone actively after they have told you no
6.  Tells a live tv audience that you slept with them
7.  Says someone is cold and tidy (translation: a bitch) in national TV interviews and a blog
8.  Concludes someone is wrong in a public blog at the same time begging people to not shame them on social media

I strongly dislike those actions.  

As for the future, I have some questions about Nick for those of you who are keeping up with him.  

Has he hired a PR firm or agent to assist him going forward? 

It sounds like he loves Chicago and wants to stay there.  Has he said he enjoys his current work and want to continue in it? 

Has he been in contact with other male veterans of the show who live in Chicago, e.g. Frank and Ed, who might give him perspective about their experience?

[SueSt]

Regarding the bolded, I think it's pretty ironic that Josh really hasn't done anything in terms of causing any problems with Nick during the show or any sm against Nick after the show, but I think the whole reason the Andi/Nick and their lead/f2 relationship is so bad is because of him. IMO, if Nick didn't start with the video on the plane with all the stuff about Josh, then the sm posting pics of himself with Andi, followed by the letter saying Josh isn't right for her, trying to see her knowing she's with Josh, and the deleted scenes where Nick and Andi are having a pup named Murray, Andi wouldn't have been so cold to Nick at atfr, he probably wouldn't have felt the need to punish her with the fs talk, and their relationship would be cordial. Josh really has been a silent participant here though

I kind of can't believe people took that dog comment as some serious insult. It was just a joke. Nick has a very dry sense of humour and I think it was lost on many of the guys during the show, maybe because his perceived arrogance rubbed them the wrong way. But it seems many of them have "got him" after the show, like Brian who he was talking to when he made that comment. In any case, the guys I know rip on each other all the time, especially when there's some rivalry going on. It's just friendly banter, nothing more. I guess Nick doesn't laugh at his own jokes, which makes some people take them seriously.

I can see how Andi would be a bit put off by the stuff he said on the plane, but it was just a hurt man venting to a family member. He didn't know it would be made public. Yes, he was speaking in public, but he didn't mention any names, so it wasn't his intention to defame anyone. And maybe she should have made it clear to him that Josh was #1 instead of just shrugging. Would have saved him some confusion perhaps. Nick and Josh are such different people, and Andi went on about her mental connection with Nick so many times, I can see why he'd have trouble wrapping his mind around the thought that Andi had a better connection with Josh. It's not an insult to Josh.

Very good points again, mindless (by the way, I think you should consider a new moniker... since you are anything but!!)
I actually don't think Nick said anything terrible on the plane and if Andi had an ounce of compassion for him, given the circumstance, I would think she would understand and not be put off.
They both repeatedly talked about their emotion, mental and physical connection... it was not a fantasy... and so I also can understand why Nick would be totally blindsighted....
Andi owed Nick a much better explanation than the one she provided in the DR.... or in the post show...
Failing to provide a reasonable explanation ... and more importantly failing to demonstrate any compassion to a man that was totally in love with her has been her undoing....
And the spool continues to unwind....

[MiaHawk]

My opinion of Nick is based solely on a highly edited tv show and a very small amount of SM that has been shared here on this site. I don't follow any of these people regularly on SM.

My original impression of Nick on night 1 was that he was sincere in his search for love yet skeptical of the process of the show. As episodes aired I thought he was a bit too smug and could see that he was rubbing the other guys the wrong way. I chalked that up to the competition aspect of the process and his dry, sarcastic sense of humor That type of humor can come across as serious to those who might have a pre-existing bias against him already. Whereas, if you previous had a fondness for him, you might be able to see the humor in his statements.

I am, however, always concerned about a contestant on this show that has a difficult time playing well with the other contestants. Typically, it means something is 'off' about that person. obviously there will always be cliques within the group, sometimes based on common interests, age, or location of residence. It happens every season, but to see so many guys saying negative things about Nick was a definite red flag for me.

Now, post show we have seen many men defending Nick. Some more than others. Do we know why this is? Have they seen that they had misjudged him during filming? Do they have guilt over the fact that their comments during filming have contributed to an onslaught of SM hatred towards Nick? Have they a new-found appreciation for Nick now that they are all part of the "I've been dumped by Andi club"? Do they now see that he was sincere throughout the process and that he did fall in love with Andi? Do they feel sorry for Nick in how he was used by Andi and think "There but by the grace of God go I"? Is it that they shared unique experiences and bonded during this show's filming? Do they genuinely like Nick's company? Do they think he is generally a nice guy?

Some posters would like Nick fans to compartmentalize their fondness for Nick so that it has absolutely nothing to do with Andi. Some of this is possible, but it's not completely possible in my opinion, because I have gotten to known him through the process of interacting with Andi on this show. Same as the other guys who were on the show with Nick who are now friendly with him and enjoy his company. There is a complex mix of reasons that they and I might like Nick as a person post show.

I will speak only for myself when I say that how a person acts under pressure and in bad times is much more telling about their character and personality than is how they act when it is sunny and butterflies abound. And when I hold Nick up to scrutiny on how he has conducted himself through this show (when asked tough questions by Andi, when confronted by the other guys, when receiving constructive criticism from Andi, and what I know about after filming and ATFR), with the exception of when he asked Andi why she made love to him if she never loved him, I think as a person he has done a good job. And that is why, while Nick has never been my favorite contestant, I do continue to give him credit for the things that I feel he has handled well and done well. I think he has come across to me as a mature and balance person. He has been put through the ringer by this show, and I am disappointed to see Andi, of all people, continue to be mean towards him. It is totally unneccessary and says more about her than it does about Nick.

[stuckinsc]

I have defended Nick from the beginning that he can say and do what he wants.  I don't agree with what he did but it is his right 100%.  And..... Andi and Josh can REACT any way they want.  

Andi and josh have clearly moved on but unfortunately will continue to be asked about Nick and what he did in interviews.  I believe this will continue for a few months.  They have the right to answer any way they want.  If Nick had never brought this up at the ATFR, we would not be talking about this.  Period.   All IMHO.

 Have a nice night.  

Sorry, but this bugs me. I know I don't have children, but I was very close to my nieces and nephews. I always tried to teach them that someone else's bad behavior doesn't justify yours.

I am disappointed in Josh, I expected this from Andi, but from Josh. Not cool. I hope we don't get anymore inspirational christian or bible tweets from Josh, since he isn't showing very much Christianity right now.

[stuckinsc]

What exactly did Josh say that was offensive? That he doesn't want to say the name of who he thinks was the douche in the house? or did he say something else?

Maybe it is his seat next to Andi that influences our opinion of him. Or the fact that many had claimed that if Nick won and made that video he was a sore winners. Andi and Josh are both coming off as sore winners.

Nick made a mistake and since has done nothing but wish the happy couple well. Since then, instead of doing the Christian thing and forgiving the mistake the happy couple has continued to show anger and made snippy comments.

I liked Josh a lot before. Now I truly do think he and Andi are a good match. Please marry and stay away from others. As far as Atlanta loving Josh and Andi. Most of my friends who live in Atlanta, I have many from the five years I lived there and the fact that 50% of my high school classmates settled there, don't know Andi or Josh or give a dang about them.

[stuckinsc]

I find it funny that those of you who dislike "meandi"  love to listen to all her interviews

I don't listen. They keep being brought to the Nick thread, since she keeps talking about him.

[Kashathediva]

My opinion of Nick is based solely on a highly edited tv show and a very small amount of SM that has been shared here on this site.  I don't follow any of these people regularly on SM.

My original impression of Nick on night 1 was that he was sincere in his search for love yet skeptical of the process of the show.  As episodes aired I thought he was a bit too smug and could see that he was rubbing the other guys the wrong way.  I chalked that up to the competition aspect of the process and his dry, sarcastic sense of humor  That type of humor can come across as serious to those who might have a pre-existing bias against him already. Whereas, if you previous had a fondness for him, you might be able to see the humor in his statements.

I am, however, always concerned about a contestant on this show that has a difficult time playing well with the other contestants.  Typically, it means something is 'off' about that person. obviously there will always be cliques within the group, sometimes based on common interests, age, or location of residence.  It happens every season, but to see so many guys saying negative things about Nick was a definite red flag for me.  

Now, post show we have seen many men defending Nick.  Some more than others.  Do we know why this is?  Have they seen that they had misjudged him during filming? Do they have guilt over the fact that their comments during filming have contributed to an onslaught of SM hatred towards Nick?  Have they a new-found appreciation for Nick now that they are all part of the "I've been dumped by Andi club"? Do they now see that he was sincere throughout the process and that he did fall in love with Andi?  Do they feel sorry for Nick in how he was used by Andi and think "There but by the grace of God go I"?  Is it that they shared unique experiences and bonded during this show's filming?  Do they genuinely like Nick's company? Do they think he is generally a nice guy?

Some posters would like Nick fans to compartmentalize their fondness for Nick so that it has absolutely nothing to do with Andi.  Some of this is possible, but it's not completely possible in my opinion, because I have gotten to known him through the process of interacting with Andi on this show.  Same as the other guys who were on the show with Nick who are now friendly with him and enjoy his company.  There is a complex mix of reasons that they and I might like Nick as a person post show.

I will speak only for myself when I say that how a person acts under pressure and in bad times is much more telling about their character and personality than is how they act when it is sunny and butterflies abound.  And when I hold Nick up to scrutiny on how he has conducted himself through this show (when asked tough questions by Andi, when confronted by the other guys, when receiving constructive criticism from Andi, and what I know about after filming and ATFR), with the exception of when he asked Andi why she made love to him if she never loved him, I think as a person he has done a good job.  And that is why, while Nick has never been my favorite contestant, I do continue to give him credit for the things that I feel he has handled well and done well. I think he has come across to me as a mature and balance person.  He has been put through the ringer by this show, and I am disappointed to see Andi, of all people, continue to be mean towards him.  It is totally unneccessary and says more about her than it does about Nick.

I enjoyed reading your post and think you made some excellent points. I agree with it. (I guess this answers your question the other day!)  

[Lucas15]

Some posters would like Nick fans to compartmentalize their fondness for Nick so that it has absolutely nothing to do with Andi.  Some of this is possible, but it's not completely possible in my opinion, because I have gotten to known him through the process of interacting with Andi on this show.

ITA - it's impossible to discuss Nick without extending discussion to Andi because it was their interaction that is central to both characterizations. But you have also proved that it's possible to both criticize and also defend Nick without defending or criticizing Andi because that's exactly what you've done in this post. Congratulations MiaHawk!

... As episodes aired I thought he was a bit too smug and could see that he was rubbing the other guys the wrong way. ... I am, however, always concerned about a contestant on this show that has a difficult time playing well with the other contestants. ... but to see so many guys saying negative things about Nick was a definite red flag for me.

Now, post show we have seen many men defending Nick. Some more than others. Do we know why this is?

I don't think any of us know why and we probably will never know, but I might venture some "educated" guesses (in addition to yours). Most seasons have someone in the cast playing the role of villain and (I may miss your "favorite" in this list) we've seen people like Wes Hayden, Vienna, Michelle Money, Bentley, Courtney, Tierra and this season, Nick play this "role". Not necessarily knowingly either - just the way the show choce to edit them. Sometimes the villain turns out to be worse in real life and sometimes waay better. I don't know exactly how the show picks who is going to be the villain but I suspect they take the easy way out and pick someone who gives them enough of the right material that they don't have to work too hard, and also someone they can keep around long enough to build suspense before they get sent home. The usual story line is the villain is obvious to viewers and most of the cast but the lead is oblivious to their villainy until they finally get a clue and send the villain home (though sometimes the villain was actually F1). What I suspect is that there was enough material Nick gave the editors to make him a suitable villain and the other guys gave them enough to reinforce that role but that the whole thing was quite exaggerated during the edit. So after the show is done we see that a lot of the guys who seemed to see Nick as a villain really never did - it was just a good bit of edit trickery that made it seem that way. Mix this notion in with some portions of (potentially) all of your hypothetical reasons why this might be and I suspect we'd be pretty close to the truth.

with the exception of when he asked Andi why she made love to him if she never loved him, I think as a person he has done a good job

Aside from that rather flagrant piece of poor judgment I would mostly agree. The only observation I would add is that unless Nick was really faking all his proclamations of love for Andi, he was too naive and easily fooled by the show. It doesn't take too many producers telling Nick "You got this one in the bag - Andi and Josh are terrible together" or "You guys are going to make beautiful babies together" or "We think she knows she made a mistake and you know this wouldn't be the first time a lead has changed their mind" and Nick bought this all hook line and sinker. Remember the producers on this show are not film-makers - they are psychologists and they know exactly how to play head games with the cast (including the lead) and if someone is too savvy to fall for this - they probably don't get cast in the first place.

[stuckinsc]

Some posters would like Nick fans to compartmentalize their fondness for Nick so that it has absolutely nothing to do with Andi.  Some of this is possible, but it's not completely possible in my opinion, because I have gotten to known him through the process of interacting with Andi on this show.

ITA - it's impossible to discuss Nick without extending discussion to Andi because it was their interaction that is central to both characterizations. But you have also proved that it's possible to both criticize and also defend Nick without defending or criticizing Andi because that's exactly what you've done in this post. Congratulations MiaHawk!

... As episodes aired I thought he was a bit too smug and could see that he was rubbing the other guys the wrong way. ... I am, however, always concerned about a contestant on this show that has a difficult time playing well with the other contestants. ... but to see so many guys saying negative things about Nick was a definite red flag for me.

Now, post show we have seen many men defending Nick. Some more than others. Do we know why this is?

I don't think any of us know why and we probably will never know, but I might venture some "educated" guesses (in addition to yours). Most seasons have someone in the cast playing the role of villain and (I may miss your "favorite" in this list) we've seen people like Wes Hayden, Vienna, Michelle Money, Bentley, Courtney, Tierra and this season, Nick play this "role". Not necessarily knowingly either - just the way the show choce to edit them. Sometimes the villain turns out to be worse in real life and sometimes waay better. I don't know exactly how the show picks who is going to be the villain but I suspect they take the easy way out and pick someone who gives them enough of the right material that they don't have to work too hard, and also someone they can keep around long enough to build suspense before they get sent home. The usual story line is the villain is obvious to viewers and most of the cast but the lead is oblivious to their villainy until they finally get a clue and send the villain home (though sometimes the villain was actually F1). What I suspect is that there was enough material Nick gave the editors to make him a suitable villain and the other guys gave them enough to reinforce that role but that the whole thing was quite exaggerated during the edit. So after the show is done we see that a lot of the guys who seemed to see Nick as a villain really never did - it was just a good bit of edit trickery that made it seem that way. Mix this notion in with some portions of (potentially) all of your hypothetical reasons why this might be and I suspect we'd be pretty close to the truth.

with the exception of when he asked Andi why she made love to him if she never loved him, I think as a person he has done a good job

Aside from that rather flagrant piece of poor judgment I would mostly agree. The only observation I would add is that unless Nick was really faking all his proclamations of love for Andi, he was too naive and easily fooled by the show. It doesn't take too many producers telling Nick "You got this one in the bag - Andi and Josh are terrible together" or "You guys are going to make beautiful babies together" or "We think she knows she made a mistake and you know this wouldn't be the first time a lead has changed their mind" and Nick bought this all hook line and sinker. Remember the producers on this show are not film-makers - they are psychologists and they know exactly how to play head games with the cast (including the lead) and if someone is too savvy to fall for this - they probably don't get cast in the first place.

Lucas, this is a great post, may I add to the last section. Nick was wrong to discount all the other men. It is a mistake we have seen made many times before. So I do understand that criticism of that. But in addition to producers we saw Andi herself reward Nick for his bad behavior. She was happy and gladly kissed Nick when he stole her at the cocktail party where he already had a rose. We saw her when he interrupted Brian even though he already had the rose for HTD comfort Nick and not tell him it was rude and she would talk to him when she was done. She also gave him that HTD rose, that she kept telling them through out the date was the most important of the season. These are direct things we saw Andi do. In addition, Nick admitted his skepticism to her. She made it a point to keep him around, even after he said FILY in Venice and after he said ILY and she slept with him in FS. I know she may have had no choice in DR with FS rose, since she had sent Chris home already, but she could have also spared him a LCD, we saw, Emily, Des, and Ali all skip LCDs. She did let him go the morning of the FRC and skip picking out the ring. But according to her words the night before she told him to be happy for all he had on the show and asked him to describe their lives in Chicago. She kept her part up until the morning of the FRC. I do compare this to Brad, who was so obviously withdrawn from Chantal on the LCD. You can, once you have your mind made up make it through a LCD without adding to the pain.

Nick certainly made mistakes. Andi did as well. So glad that they are not together. I just wish Andi would stop taking digs and shots at Nick now that it is over.

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