Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[motheroffive]

This may be a big reason why the AFTR was more about Nick and less about the happy couple.  I think TPTB was punishing Andi for her slips.  They punished Nick by making him believe for two months that maybe Andi was changing her mind.

TPTB are the devil, not your friend.  They will punish you for getting out of line however they can.

I'm not sure they were punishing anyone.  They just try to achieve the most drama.  And it worked.

I agree.  I'm not someone who believes that the producers forced Nick against his will to contact Andi by holding the breached contract over his head, but I do think they "encouraged" him to believe that he still had a chance with her, and maybe even subtly offered to facilitate a meeting if she was willing, knowing full well it would never be a private one.  And once they knew that he was still not over her by the time of the ATFR, I think they had every intention of devoting a large portion of the show to the "love triangle", in their minds the more interesting/dramatic story, happy couple be damned.

I agree with this. In JPB's finale, they gained about 500,000 viewers between the finale and the AFTR. His Finale had 10.3 viewers about 300,000 less than Sean's who had around 10.6. Their AFTR's were the same at 10.8. I suspect they were trying to entice more viewers to the AFTR by talking about the possible switch and pushing the love triangle as you said.

[stuckinsc]

This may be a big reason why the AFTR was more about Nick and less about the happy couple.  I think TPTB was punishing Andi for her slips.  They punished Nick by making him believe for two months that maybe Andi was changing her mind.

TPTB are the devil, not your friend.  They will punish you for getting out of line however they can.

I'm not sure they were punishing anyone.  They just try to achieve the most drama.  And it worked.

I agree.  I'm not someone who believes that the producers forced Nick against his will to contact Andi by holding the breached contract over his head, but I do think they "encouraged" him to believe that he still had a chance with her, and maybe even subtly offered to facilitate a meeting if she was willing, knowing full well it would never be a private one.  And once they knew that he was still not over her by the time of the ATFR, I think they had every intention of devoting a large portion of the show to the "love triangle", in their minds the more interesting/dramatic story, happy couple be damned.

I compare Des and Andi's AFTR. They had the whole Brooks drama with Des. It could have been drawn out much more. They chose to give the couple at least equal time to Brooks. They showed Chris's awesome proposal. They focused on them in love for a good third of the show.

Nick got over 40 minutes. Andi and Josh got about 10 and their proposal wasn't even shown with them watching. First time ever. Sorry, in my opinion, Andi was being punished by TPTB.

[Cecilia]

I'm not sure they were punishing anyone.  They just try to achieve the most drama.  And it worked.

I agree.  I'm not someone who believes that the producers forced Nick against his will to contact Andi by holding the breached contract over his head, but I do think they "encouraged" him to believe that he still had a chance with her, and maybe even subtly offered to facilitate a meeting if she was willing, knowing full well it would never be a private one.  And once they knew that he was still not over her by the time of the ATFR, I think they had every intention of devoting a large portion of the show to the "love triangle", in their minds the more interesting/dramatic story, happy couple be damned.

I compare Des and Andi's AFTR.  They had the whole Brooks drama with Des.  It could have been drawn out much more.  They chose to give the couple at least equal time to Brooks.  They showed Chris's awesome proposal.  They focused on them in love for a good third of the show.

Nick got over 40 minutes. Andi and Josh got about 10 and their proposal wasn't even shown with them watching. First time ever.  Sorry, in my opinion, Andi was being punished by TPTB.

I guess but Brooks and Des didn't really have anything to say to each other. Brooks had backed out, Des was engaged to someone else. She surely wasn't going to give TPTB the drama they wanted by fawning over Brooks when she had moved on to Chris and was happy with the relationship. Nick, on the other hand, was having a hard time moving on, was hurt etc. and ended up giving them so much drama that it overshadowed the couple in all the media following. I think they just have to work with what they are given......

[ironcat]

I agree.  I'm not someone who believes that the producers forced Nick against his will to contact Andi by holding the breached contract over his head, but I do think they "encouraged" him to believe that he still had a chance with her, and maybe even subtly offered to facilitate a meeting if she was willing, knowing full well it would never be a private one.  And once they knew that he was still not over her by the time of the ATFR, I think they had every intention of devoting a large portion of the show to the "love triangle", in their minds the more interesting/dramatic story, happy couple be damned.

I compare Des and Andi's AFTR.  They had the whole Brooks drama with Des.  It could have been drawn out much more.  They chose to give the couple at least equal time to Brooks.  They showed Chris's awesome proposal.  They focused on them in love for a good third of the show.

Nick got over 40 minutes. Andi and Josh got about 10 and their proposal wasn't even shown with them watching. First time ever.  Sorry, in my opinion, Andi was being punished by TPTB.

I guess but Brooks and Des didn't really have anything to say to each other.  Brooks had backed out, Des was engaged to someone else.  She surely wasn't going to give TPTB the drama they wanted by fawning over Brooks when she had moved on to Chris and was happy with the relationship.  Nick, on the other hand, was having a hard time moving on, was hurt etc. and ended up giving them so much drama that it overshadowed the couple in all the media following.  I think they just have to work with what they are given......

Also, they spent the entire two hour finale preceding it hinting that Brooks was coming back, ie making it more about Brooks than Chris (and Brooks wasn't even on screen). Once he didn't, that story line in essence was over. The ATFR was then more about the happy couple, but the finale sure wasn't.

And IF Brooks would have had a change of heart and decided he wanted another shot with Des, I can almost guarantee that they would have spent WAY more time discussing that at ATFR than showing footage of the proposal, etal.

[Lucas15]

This may be a big reason why the AFTR was more about Nick and less about the happy couple.  I think TPTB was punishing Andi for her slips.  They punished Nick by making him believe for two months that maybe Andi was changing her mind.

TPTB are the devil, not your friend.  They will punish you for getting out of line however they can.

I'm not sure they were punishing anyone.  They just try to achieve the most drama.  And it worked.

I agree with this. They care about telling the "most important part" (as opposed to the complete part) of any story, and it's probably not out of line to equate the most important part to the most dramatic part. Whether they knew what Nick would say, whether they planted that idea in his mind to say it, or whether he came up with all that happened after filming ended completely on his own, that was the dramatic ending to the season and that's why they focused so much air time on it; punishment had nothing to do with why they did what they did, IMHO. (I can't seriously believe that Andi or Josh kept track of how many minutes of air time they got - or even care one iota). The F2 who wouldn't take "No" for an answer was the drama and they either got a little bit more than they bargained for or got Nick to do exactly what they suggest he do - take your pick. I'm 80/40 on which way I think that really went.

Oops - wrong forum ...

I agree.  I'm not someone who believes that the producers forced Nick against his will to contact Andi by holding the breached contract over his head, but I do think they "encouraged" him to believe that he still had a chance with her, and maybe even subtly offered to facilitate a meeting if she was willing, knowing full well it would never be a private one.  And once they knew that he was still not over her by the time of the ATFR, I think they had every intention of devoting a large portion of the show to the "love triangle", in their minds the more interesting/dramatic story, happy couple be damned.

I think the fact that they sent a producer to Milwaukee to film background for Nick and his rejection and used that footage as a lead-in to the ATFR suggests you are probably 100% accurate with your thought.

[MVMom39forever]

^^Happy, MVMom - I would say that I had a different experience in watching the show.  I am a really big Nick fan and chose him (not really for Andi) to root for because of qualities of genuineness I saw about his character during the show, regardless of his seemingly villainous edit.  What I saw was a man trying to woo a woman, and that was very sweet - naïve for the show, but sweet.  I have been skeptical towards Nick being F1 hence I didn't really pledge or stand in a corner until the HTDs because I wanted to really see the behavior of the lead towards her chosen one(s).  Yes I did see that Andi was chasing Josh but she cajoled Nick (to the point I found patronizing at times).  Unfortunately, whereas Andi acted the same towards several of the men, she never did that with Josh.  During some of the disagreements with Josh, she has shown vulnerability and hurt.  Either she didn't experience that with Nick or wasn't that into Nick to have her feelings hurt by him.  How can I explain this, her alpha came out in interactions with all the men except when with Josh.

So I knew (very sure) I was going to end up broken-hearted should I side with Nick.  That's not to say I didn' t see or believe that others in my camp felt like both of you did because I was - in a way - hoping too.  Logic, notwithstanding, I still decided to stand in Nick's corner because it was also during this time that I knew that either Andi was acting with Nick or she did have some feelings for him that she didn't admit in the end. I must admit that I was waiting for Andi's redemption - because I really liked her and identified with her, but I was sadly disappointed.  Either way, she wasn't genuine, IMO, so I'm glad I stuck it out with Nick - the one that got away (really, I know I'm going to be bashed by this statement but that's how I feel).  Hoping the best for him.

Great post, I felt the same as many of the points you outlined here. A lot of good discussion going on here that I'm enjoying reading.

FYI never fear any repercussions of your opionions! Any posts that are not within the rules will simply be deleted. Post away  

Actually, I should say that I am more in your camp than you think. I started the show being hot for Marcus and growing to really enjoy Brian and Marquel as my favorites onscreen. I liked Nick fine but was not really hanging out full time in his fan thread until HTD/FD timeframe. I watched HTD date on vacation with my snarky unspoiled sister who insisted Josh had "issues" and then the FD makeout scene by tree/tugging of pockets sealed the deal for me. That's when I started stalking Nick on Twitter/IG nd discovered that he was a cool dude. Smart. Witty. Great sense of humor. Great family. Great company/career. And he totally rocked a Henley. What's not to like?! This is when I became a Nick fan.

And, Cecelia, YES ... I was kidding about Nick being a "nerd" ... just responding to some other posts who dismissed him as a nerd and put him in Andi's "friend" zone. Sure, sure ... I believe the term is friend with benefits, right?!

[Sprite]

Basically, ignore who is chasing the lead (Nick with flowers, going to her room, etc), watch who the lead is chasing....in this case always prodding and poking at Josh. Questioning...non stop.

That whole "Just my type, nailed it. Damn." was a huge give away for me. Just like JPab biting his hand watching Nikki walk away last year. Even after almost everybody told her ILY and she had a great week, she was miserable because she and Josh got into that tiff about the lie detector. She was just different with him. More relaxed. Softer...and that is the only time she was ever soft because, let's face it, a soft, warm, fuzzy type, she is not.

I find that as we get into the season and favourites are more firmly entrenched, people seem to go to more and more elaborate strategies to justify why the lead will pick this one or that one. I stick to the basics. I watch body language. Maybe it's because it's something I am trained to do in my job. If I don't read body language cues well...I'm likely to get myself whacked...big time. I also watch for the direct...straight to the camera...statements about whoever. The voiceovers they can play with, but those statements straight from the horses mouth are what count. If you have to twist yourself in knots to justify why it's something/someone...it's most likely not!

In all the years that I have been watching this show and following message boards analyzing it I have never read a more pertinent, articulate and clearer post on how to figure out the ending. I want to engrave it on a bronze plaque, hang it over my TV and maybe list copies of it on eBay so all can keep these words front and center. I don't think I realized until I read it that you read body language though clearly you do because you've had to learn and hone that skill. It's the best radar to penetrate the fog generated by the edit, voice overs and ITMs that the show throws out to hide the ending. Though I haven't seen too many posters observe this, your comment "She was just different with him. More relaxed. Softer...and that is the only time she was ever soft because, let's face it, a soft, warm, fuzzy type, she is not." is exactly the same show I saw. Andi has an edge; she softened it when it came to Josh.

Maybe not every season but the show often gives us the best spoiler if we're watching the lead because they will often tell us who the lead is going to chase on the first episode. "Just my type, nailed it. Damn." was this season's clue that Andi was going to be chasing Josh. On Ben's season it was "Now there's a very pretty girl" after meeting Courtney. On Ashley's season they gave it away in less than 5 seconds of video (and no audio) where she had a sort of a knowing sneer (as in "I've got your number buster!") after meeting Bentley and a "he took my breath away" gasp after meeting JP. Ashley's season was particularly interesting to me because they were able to use ITMs and VO and interveiws with CH to convince people that she was all about Bentley (I wonder if there might not be some who still think that) and Bentley wasn't even there anymore! Of course the whole time that was going on as a smokescreen, Ashley was chasing JP. Brad chased Emily (making the end obvious even though the spoiler said he picked Chantal).

Sometimes there's a wrinkle that makes it more ... interesting ... those are the seasons where the one the lead chased didn't want to be caught. Sometimes they've left before the lead can catch them, other times they get caught but break up quickly.

And yet another clear definition of Occam's Razor: If you have to twist yourself in knots to justify why it's something/someone...it's most likely not!

Wonderful post. Thank you for your wisdom.

Thank you Lucas. I work with people who have developmental disabilities and are highly aggressive. Most are autistic. Often they have little or no communication skills. The key to decreasing the aggression is often simply by finding a way to communicate since the aggression often stems from frustration. You better hone your skills at reading body language really fast or you will not last in the field very long...and I have been around 30+ years.

I freely admit that I am spoiled. I like knowing who the top 4-6 are. Who the F1 is doesn't matter as much because that can be wrong, but if I know the top 4 then I can keep my eye on them from the start and ignore the edited and manufactured drama the producers always throw at us. (Although, it is usually pretty obvious who the top contenders are anyway.) By zeroing in on the top four you can then watch how the lead is with them right from the start, observe how their demeanour changes as the feelings change and relationships develop or peter out. The trick is to stay objective...even if you have your favourites.

There have been seasons...Brad 2 and Des in particular...that although I knew who the "winner" was, I didn't necessarily "see" it. I loved Chantel in Brad 2 and initially was really happy because I thought he picked her and since I liked him also, all seemed good. Unfortunately, I couldn't get past the fact that anytime Brad was around Emily he couldn't string a coherent sentence together. That is not a man who is crazy about another woman...no matter how well they edit things. I wanted it to be Chantel, but my gut just didn't believe. (Of course, my gut didn't believe that Emily was really into him so I was confused there for a while.) Same with Des. Like everyone else, I knew Brooks was the spoiled F1, but as much as I saw her being really into him, I didn't see him reciprocating. Yes he liked her. Yes he was nice. Yes he played along, but I didn't see it. Other seasons...like Emily and Jeff...again I knew who the F1 was, but I wasn't buying it. Not because they didn't edit it well, but because I just thought they were playing along for the show and it wasn't real.

It's funny, but looking back over the years, before spoilers were even around and before I knew of the existence of boards like this, the seasons that I actually paid attention to because I liked someone, I always figured out who the lead would pick. Despite all the editing tricks, if you really just stick to the basics, the simplest explanation is usually the one.

[dw_a_mom]

Basically, ignore who is chasing the lead (Nick with flowers, going to her room, etc), watch who the lead is chasing....in this case always prodding and poking at Josh. Questioning...non stop.

That whole "Just my type, nailed it. Damn." was a huge give away for me. Just like JPab biting his hand watching Nikki walk away last year. Even after almost everybody told her ILY and she had a great week, she was miserable because she and Josh got into that tiff about the lie detector. She was just different with him. More relaxed. Softer...and that is the only time she was ever soft because, let's face it, a soft, warm, fuzzy type, she is not.

I find that as we get into the season and favourites are more firmly entrenched, people seem to go to more and more elaborate strategies to justify why the lead will pick this one or that one. I stick to the basics. I watch body language. Maybe it's because it's something I am trained to do in my job. If I don't read body language cues well...I'm likely to get myself whacked...big time. I also watch for the direct...straight to the camera...statements about whoever. The voiceovers they can play with, but those statements straight from the horses mouth are what count. If you have to twist yourself in knots to justify why it's something/someone...it's most likely not!

In all the years that I have been watching this show and following message boards analyzing it I have never read a more pertinent, articulate and clearer post on how to figure out the ending. I want to engrave it on a bronze plaque, hang it over my TV and maybe list copies of it on eBay so all can keep these words front and center. I don't think I realized until I read it that you read body language though clearly you do because you've had to learn and hone that skill. It's the best radar to penetrate the fog generated by the edit, voice overs and ITMs that the show throws out to hide the ending. Though I haven't seen too many posters observe this, your comment "She was just different with him. More relaxed. Softer...and that is the only time she was ever soft because, let's face it, a soft, warm, fuzzy type, she is not." is exactly the same show I saw. Andi has an edge; she softened it when it came to Josh.

Maybe not every season but the show often gives us the best spoiler if we're watching the lead because they will often tell us who the lead is going to chase on the first episode. "Just my type, nailed it. Damn." was this season's clue that Andi was going to be chasing Josh. On Ben's season it was "Now there's a very pretty girl" after meeting Courtney. On Ashley's season they gave it away in less than 5 seconds of video (and no audio) where she had a sort of a knowing sneer (as in "I've got your number buster!") after meeting Bentley and a "he took my breath away" gasp after meeting JP. Ashley's season was particularly interesting to me because they were able to use ITMs and VO and interveiws with CH to convince people that she was all about Bentley (I wonder if there might not be some who still think that) and Bentley wasn't even there anymore! Of course the whole time that was going on as a smokescreen, Ashley was chasing JP. Brad chased Emily (making the end obvious even though the spoiler said he picked Chantal).

Sometimes there's a wrinkle that makes it more ... interesting ... those are the seasons where the one the lead chased didn't want to be caught. Sometimes they've left before the lead can catch them, other times they get caught but break up quickly.

And yet another clear definition of Occam's Razor: If you have to twist yourself in knots to justify why it's something/someone...it's most likely not!

Wonderful post. Thank you for your wisdom.

Thank you Lucas. I work with people who have developmental disabilities and are highly aggressive. Most are autistic. Often they have little or no communication skills. The key to decreasing the aggression is often simply by finding a way to communicate since the aggression often stems from frustration. You better hone your skills at reading body language really fast or you will not last in the field very long...and I have been around 30+ years.

I freely admit that I am spoiled. I like knowing who the top 4-6 are. Who the F1 is doesn't matter as much because that can be wrong, but if I know the top 4 then I can keep my eye on them from the start and ignore the edited and manufactured drama the producers always throw at us. (Although, it is usually pretty obvious who the top contenders are anyway.) By zeroing in on the top four you can then watch how the lead is with them right from the start, observe how their demeanour changes as the feelings change and relationships develop or peter out. The trick is to stay objective...even if you have your favourites.

There have been seasons...Brad 2 and Des in particular...that although I knew who the "winner" was, I didn't necessarily "see" it. I loved Chantel in Brad 2 and initially was really happy because I thought he picked her and since I liked him also, all seemed good. Unfortunately, I couldn't get past the fact that anytime Brad was around Emily he couldn't string a coherent sentence together. That is not a man who is crazy about another woman...no matter how well they edit things. I wanted it to be Chantel, but my gut just didn't believe. (Of course, my gut didn't believe that Emily was really into him so I was confused there for a while.) Same with Des. Like everyone else, I knew Brooks was the spoiled F1, but as much as I saw her being really into him, I didn't see him reciprocating. Yes he liked her. Yes he was nice. Yes he played along, but I didn't see it. Other seasons...like Emily and Jeff...again I knew who the F1 was, but I wasn't buying it. Not because they didn't edit it well, but because I just thought they were playing along for the show and it wasn't real.

It's funny, but looking back over the years, before spoilers were even around and before I knew of the existence of boards like this, the seasons that I actually paid attention to because I liked someone, I always figured out who the lead would pick. Despite all the editing tricks, if you really just stick to the basics, the simplest explanation is usually the one.

True enough, on that last sentence.

My is ASD, btw. Very high functioning and off-IEP, but there were some difficult years there dealing with the developmental and communication gaps. I had to be very good at reading my son, knowing what he was feeling before he had been able to put a name on it.

[Lucas15]

Thank you Lucas. I work with people who have developmental disabilities and are highly aggressive. Most are autistic. Often they have little or no communication skills. The key to decreasing the aggression is often simply by finding a way to communicate since the aggression often stems from frustration. You better hone your skills at reading body language really fast or you will not last in the field very long...and I have been around 30+ years.

I freely admit that I am spoiled. I like knowing who the top 4-6 are. Who the F1 is doesn't matter as much because that can be wrong, but if I know the top 4 then I can keep my eye on them from the start and ignore the edited and manufactured drama the producers always throw at us. (Although, it is usually pretty obvious who the top contenders are anyway.) By zeroing in on the top four you can then watch how the lead is with them right from the start, observe how their demeanour changes as the feelings change and relationships develop or peter out. The trick is to stay objective...even if you have your favourites.

There have been seasons...Brad 2 and Des in particular...that although I knew who the "winner" was, I didn't necessarily "see" it. I loved Chantel in Brad 2 and initially was really happy because I thought he picked her and since I liked him also, all seemed good. Unfortunately, I couldn't get past the fact that anytime Brad was around Emily he couldn't string a coherent sentence together. That is not a man who is crazy about another woman...no matter how well they edit things. I wanted it to be Chantel, but my gut just didn't believe. (Of course, my gut didn't believe that Emily was really into him so I was confused there for a while.) Same with Des. Like everyone else, I knew Brooks was the spoiled F1, but as much as I saw her being really into him, I didn't see him reciprocating. Yes he liked her. Yes he was nice. Yes he played along, but I didn't see it. Other seasons...like Emily and Jeff...again I knew who the F1 was, but I wasn't buying it. Not because they didn't edit it well, but because I just thought they were playing along for the show and it wasn't real.

It's funny, but looking back over the years, before spoilers were even around and before I knew of the existence of boards like this, the seasons that I actually paid attention to because I liked someone, I always figured out who the lead would pick. Despite all the editing tricks, if you really just stick to the basics, the simplest explanation is usually the one.

Fascinating and now I know exactly why you posted that you had to be attune to body language because it could bite back hard if you weren't.

Even more fascinating that you watch the show (and consider spoilers) the very same way I watch it. I most want to know the top 4 or so because that's who I watch interact with the lead; it's just too confusing and too much work to watch everybody. And exactly like you I picked up on something amiss on Brad 2 and Des' seasons. I "knew" Brad picked Chantal but all I could see was him chasing Emily and I kept waiting to see something change. Of course it never did and that spoiler was wrong and when it changed I just thought "Ah HA - I saw that coming". On Des' season I also believed the spoiler but the first date she had with Brooks I knew something was really off. She was very attracted to Brooks but he didn't reciprocate and I spent much of her season waiting for that to change, and it never did. And of course the spoiler was wrong all along. I have never quite figured out why the show picked that season to plant false information about the ending. And I also felt just as you did that Emily and Jef were just playing along and putting on a show, and I wasn't surprised with what happened after the finale.

And then there's this season ...

[Sprite]

I was really surprised, after the heated debates going on in the spoiled threads between those who thought it was Nick and those who thought it was Josh, with so much "evidence" supporting each side, that when I peeked into the unspoiled thread, there was almost unanimous consensus that it was Josh, taking all the SM, RS input, plane video, etal, out of the equation.  I found that to be a fascinating and curious phenomenon, and there's got to be some psychological significance to why having seemingly MORE information misled many of us on the spoiled side.  I love that we are exploring that.  

I largely ignored the unspoiled forums myself because I was afraid I'd slip and post a "you're so wrong" type implication and spoil them and also I (very unfairly as it turns out) didn't expect them to be dealing with the show as I saw it. I was equally stunned to find out when I finally got there that they had ultimately reached a concensus that she had picked Josh and that the reasons I could see posted were the same reasons I saw supporting the spoiler. Your observation (bolded) is one of the more fascinating questions and perhaps doesn't have only a single answer.

One issue that may be a factor is a near universal hatred (OK strong word) of RS. So many posters want so badly to see him wrong I wonder if they root for the contrary / alternative position more because that would make him wrong - again - than because they really see the alternative as likely.

Another is that many of us want to see the underdog in any contest win so we root for the underdog. If you're spoiled that defines who the underdog might be, but if you're not spoiled you can't root for the underdog because you don't know who it is.

ETA
And yet another may be that there might have been a shared objective of the unspoiled forums. For example to figure out who Andi would pick before her choice was aired. I see a number of posts made where people select who to root for not based on who they think would win but who they "like" and sometimes even not who they like for the lead. Those are two very different goals that may explain different results.

Good points. I go to the unspoiled side every once in a while just to check in and see how the wind is blowing. I very rarely post. I find it is much less polarizing there since they ignore RS and his spoilers, and as a result, there aren't all the convoluted explanations as to why he is wrong. Most people still know how the show works, but just ignore the extraneous information and focus solely on what is on the screen. I also think, they don't develop the level of fandom as some of the rest of us do who start sleuthing out the contestants early on. I really think that helps keep them focused on what is happening vs. what they want to happen. I am sorely temped to try to stay unspoiled next season or at least for part of it.

[Cecilia]

^I will just say that at least half or more Nick fans on this board didn't try to explain away the spoilers!

[happygolucky]

And yet another may be that there might have been a shared objective of the unspoiled forums. For example to figure out who Andi would pick before her choice was aired. I see a number of posts made where people select who to root for not based on who they think would win but who they "like" and sometimes even not who they like for the lead. Those are two very different goals that may explain different results.

I'm completely out today, so my post might not be connected will this whole discussion (nice one BTW) ... I think slowly I can see how our views start to align and understand how as people we are strange creatures with complicated minds, that not always everything can be understood, and despite the great statistics, that definitely can give us answers, not always those answers satisfy all our wondering.

I was one of those people, who started to watch this show this season for pure curiosity how the show like this works, how they portray the characters, I had some idea and wanted to see how accurate it was. I wasn't on board about RS, although I did hear him being mentioned before (I think during RFL, since there were no spoilers). I immediately sensed a sympathy for Nick, he's my kind of person, so I found myself in him, more than I ever would admit, because I also saw my own flaws and surely that isn't fun to watch, but to me was fascinating how well could he manage to overcome those flaws or at least he didn't permit them to weight on him and to prevent him to do something, he faced them and succeeded in his attempt. That for me is admirable.
I liked him even more for that and with time spent here on this forum, reading all around the web very negative comments about Nick, realizing how misunderstood he was, sadly, more so, that every action of his, that to me demonstrated a great challenge that he managed to win over, to everyone else seemed like a huge mistake, a move he shouldn't allowed to do in that setting. While to me appeared that Nick was fighting his own fears and insecurities and really pushing limits of his own comfort and really giving his all in, unconditionally, so much that I almost felt discomfort in how open-honest he was, that he wasn't really paying attention to the game and had absolutely no hidden motives, since otherwise he would be more cautious of his "public image" (and I continue giving him credit that he is very aware of how it all works)... but all he cared was the girl, getting to know her, showing himself completely to her so that she could decide and hopefully fall in love in him [accepting him for all he is] ... to most viewers and very vocal media people he appeared creepy, dishonest, manipulative, arrogant and I don't remember other complete opposite views of what to me was a reality of his persona.
That was heartbreaking for me.

I don't really think he got a bad edit. I don't even believe he was shown to be something he is not. They showed him in his most raw version of his true self in that little time they (we) had ... and still there is plenty of Nick we haven't seen that would be even better, more interesting, funny, sensitive, loveable part of him ...

and if people didn't see it ... if they didn't want to or didn't make time [because they were more focused on someone who they preferred] ... it's OK, because we aren't here on this earth to see things the same way.

But it is heartbreaking to know that people don't like you or really dislike you for what they perceive of you even tho' that couldn't be further from the truth. Because if they don't like you for who you really are ... then that's it ... you walk away knowing that with those people you could never be friends or have any other relationship, but if you believe that the image they have of you isn't really in sync with the real you, then you try to show them who you really are, you make an effort to make them see a different side, not per se to change their mind, because at the end they can keep disliking you ... but at least to have a fair shot, to not have any regrets, to give them an opportunity for that too ... because you do find them worth it [which is a compliment to them].

I don't know if that ever happened to you? I surely experienced my share of wrongly attributed characteristics mainly because of my name, so I'm very sensitive on the subject of prejudice and superficial labeling. I also know that once I see that there is a wall in front of me and that a person isn't, by any means, willing to give me a chance, then I lose my interest too, I start to ignore them just the same with no hurt feelings.

That's why maybe ... I was so eager to "defend" Nick during the season. Hoping for people to give him a chance, to take time to get to know him and then decide. But I guess I was a bit late to the party, because when I joined the plane video was pretty much the guilty verdict to most and the episodes to come, where every guy in the house was complaining about Nick, were only adding more liability to already developed bad impression.

But that's the past ...

I think Nick did what was best for him ... and by that I mean ... everything he did ... there's no taking back, no excuses, no justification ... because there is no regret, no shame and no wishful thinking.

I didn't watch the show for Andi, neither did I care for her. I did however try to get to know her, understand her and find some empathy for her, firstly because she is a woman [and I like when women stick together] and secondly because I saw how much Nick cared for her, so I thought she must be worth it. I unfortunately remained with my doubts all to the end. I tried, I really tried to shake them off, there were days when I thought I finally got her that I could finally read her through - see when she feels it and when she just pretends or when she thinks she feels it, but it's just an illusion playing with her own mind - but I knew that only by the finale I would understand which of my possible choices of her "faces" would result to be real.
And I got my answer. (And it's better that I don't drag out this debate again.) But it's the answer that gives me peace and closure and so I have no need to see it from different point of view, because it fits my puzzle ... story closed... and I move on.

For the simple fact that I saw Nick very in-love with her ... I hoped and I wished he would "win" ... from what I saw of her I believed they could had been great together... as long all that she did for him and said about him/to him was real. I never really thought of what's best for Andi ... because I wasn't able to define who Andi really is. So I only hoped for the best solution, best conclusion of this "game" for Nick.

It didn't end with the great love he was feeling and hoping for ... but I do believe it was the best final option and the unavoidable end that came the best way possible in all honesty for Nick ... as it should be.

I do believe the morning of the breakup ... was the end of the illusion ... and it took time to process ... time to come to terms of whether he was a fool ... to trust, to believe, to show as much as he did, to be so honest, so sincere, so completely naked ... or was just a blessing in disguise.
For Nick I think the answer came gradually ... and I also believe once "kicked out of the game" ... he turned the other cheek ... and started to play himself. And boy, does this boy know how to play if he wants to. So no, I don't see any victim, anyone to defend here, no sad Nick, no bitter Nick, no hurt Nick [not anymore] ... just plain Nick ... in all of his vest ... but the best he delivers sharp in his suit ... and I enjoy every minute of him on screen (or "paper").

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