Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[murphy]

Thanks soccermom. I pm'd back, but I'm not sure if I did it correctly. So, hope you got it

Thanks sdmom. I should have gotten on board sooner. I actually saw BIP by accident the other night, so I might have to watch that now. I have never watched BP, so didn't know what to expect. Well, actually, I did have a good idea of what to expect just from watching bach/ette all these years   

[docnash14]

Mustang, some of us don't think Andi knew she was in love with Josh when she slept with Nick.  Believe her or not, but she has said she didn't know, in a few interviews.

This may seem like splitting hairs but I think a distinction needs to be made between whether Andi was in love with Josh then or whether she knew she was in love with him. From what I understand from what she has said both during filming and post, she did not know until the morning of the proposal that she had been in love with him since she first saw him get out of the limo. As unlikely as that may appear to many, I liken it to reaching a desired destination but not being aware that you have arrived because some substance has completely fogged up your lenses precluding clear vision. In my opinion, And's strategy in cleaning/clearing her lenses was to gain as much knowledge and information about the guys (including, as I have speculated previously as has Lucas, how the guys' declarations of love effected her emotionally and likewise how their physical interactions impacted her) as she could throughout the process believing that her analytical abilities would help her figure out her truth and give her the clarity she needed. And in a way her strategy worked in that she was able to realize that fear was the substance that had clouded her vision. Once this fear was faced, it was lifted thereby offering Andi clear vision of her love for Josh.

[albean99]

Ok, I have to come out of lurking.  I‘ve read  you all for years – and feel like I know many of you.  I don’t know why I’ve never bothered to register.  I go way back – Trista and Ryan.  Only missed a few in between there.  I have to borrow from the wise jlcaz - “I could have a friggin’ Phd in this show” (sadly).

But I can’t hold back anymore, because we FINALLY may really have had “the Most Dramatic ATFR Ever”.    Here’s my take on what really happened to finally lead to the MDATFRE.  But first, a little background,  as I see it:

The show has evolved to become a potentially lucrative temporary career stint for beautiful twenty something’s.  First, they must get cast as a member.  Then, depending on how many fans they gather, and how far they go on the “journey”, they have a range of options when the show ends.  At one end is simply becoming part of “Bachelor Nation”, which in itself leads to some paid appearances and sponsorships, to other paid opportunities like BIP, BP.  At the other end, is the holy grail– lead of Bachelor/ette, and maybe someday, DWTS.  

So what is the payoff for lead of Bach?  Well, there’s base pay, perks, and “bonuses”.  Perks  are the free wardrobe and free travel.  Base pay is whatever is the lead negotiates – we’ve heard between $50K – $250K.  (Supposedly Andi was at the 50K end, Sean around $100K, and Emily $250K).  
But the earning potential (sponsorships and appearances) in the two years after the show can be a real “bonus”.   Depending on the appearance, venue, and the popularity of the couple, these can be $10,000 to $50,000 each.  For comparison, Mike “the Situation” was paid around $50,000 for some appearances during the height of his popularity.   Deanna, for one, alluded to the opportunities she and Jesse could have “cashed in on” had they stayed together.  

Of course, if the happy couple makes it two years (or gets married), they get to keep the ring – usually valued around $100,000.  Whether or not they find love it’s not a bad pay day for a couple of twenty somethings.  Ahhh, but that’s the catch – in order to earn the “bonuses”, the couple must still be together, interesting, attractive, in looooove, and devoid of any scandal (*cough*sexting Jef and Emily).

The savvy Bach/ette is not looking for love – they are interviewing for a Public Relations and Business partner for a two year stint.  If they find love during the “journey”, then all the better.  But the wisest thing the Bach/ette can do is look for someone that is media friendly, will go the distance, and isn’t giving up more in their real career   (*cough*Chris) that might favor quitting early if the going gets tough.  

On that premise, Andi scored the top candidate.  Josh is fun, attractive, appealing, part of a media savvy family.  They look fantastic together.  Distance isn’t an obstacle.  They might even be on the path to love IRL.  Really, it doesn’t get any better than this. I would venture to say Andi played the game perhaps better than any bachelorette before.  Then Nick throws a wrench into the works at the eleventh hour.  Oh, I’d be mad too.

As an attorney, from the moment Andi found out about the infamous “plane video”, she had to be furious.  Because Andi would have understood that Nick’s balls were presently in the possession of TPTB, and now, anything could happen.  

Yep.  Andi was furious, when she came out on that stage.  Over the past two months she had already seen how much leverage TPTB were exerting to get dramatic moments.  (“ Andi, Nick is here at the MTA and we’d like to film him trying to meet with you to talk”,  or “Andi, here’s a letter from Nick, written by us, and posted on our Facebook page”).  She had to be wondering, how far will they take this?

And Yep, Nick was shaking when he came out on that stage– knowing he had to do what he was about to do – or be sued for a slam dunk breach. (“Nick, you spoiled the show’s dramatic ending via your breach of contract, which will cause us to lose viewership, and hence lose money.  So, you are either going to pay us cash, or you are going to participate in creating a dramatic ending”).  

And so finally, TPTB got the “MDATFRE”, Nick got a waiver on his $5 million breach of contract, Josh maneuvered expertly, and Andi discovered how very wise her choice was.  

Having said all that, I like Nick as much as any previous contestant.  I don’t believe the one sided edit.   I think Nick did something stupid (plane video) not ever expecting it to get out.  I think he paid the highest price (public denigration and humiliation), had no real choice, and handled the aftermath skillfully – which can only come from a genuine and decent place.   I like Josh.  I think he is affable, and kind, and charitable, and loving.  Anyone would be lucky to have either of these guys as a cousin or brother or neighbor.  I think Andi is an excellent reality tv actress, who played the part well, was mostly kind to the contestants (except Nick, at the end), and is very, smart.  I think she had issues with being challenged, and a dangerously big ego – not unexpected for a young, beautiful woman with a TV show.  We are all flawed.  

In summary, I think they are all doing the best they can to play this game they got into, or live in this fishbowl they are in, if you prefer.    I think the best thing for all of them, if they want to engender a positive “fan reaction” is bury the hatchet fast, and be openly kind to each other.  Mean, nasty, or bitter doesn’t look good on anyone.  I think Nick is the only one of the three who has done this well, subsequent to the MDATFRE.  

      Murphy.

[Guest]

Thanks Norcalgal!  I would have loved to see the progression with Eric too - and I think he was definitely on Andi's radar as having huge potential to be well liked and a real asset on the post show appearance circuit.  But Eric also the potential to outshine Andi, and when he showed himself as much too real to play the game, while challenging her, no less, he was gone.  I think her real anger in that situation was knowing such a good candidate was out of the running.  

I am a big fan of Nick's.  I think she took him to F2 because he was a good back up plan.   He was self assured enough to do well at the media rounds.  He was a sales person - he could win people over and "sell" their story.  He had a close and loving Midwestern family.  Remember, at this point, she had no idea how bad of an edit he would be given. Andi may not have been sure if Nick would "play the game", but she knew he really did love her - and that alone would keep him in the game. But once she got her time alone from the cameras with Josh, which was after the Nick FS,  and saw that Josh was all in, well, that was it.  

I feel sorry for Nick - he really did get himself in a bind contractually, and heart broken too.  I think he dropped that FS comment because he was forced to, and cannot admit that lest he wants another breach.  And he is well versed now in how they can destroy him.

As a side note, I think the reason the bach announcement is stalled is because after seeing how freely TPTB will destroy  and humiliate someone (stalker, pedophile?  egad.) the current candidate(s) are negotiating details of their contract(s) much harder.  I don't think any of the bach nation ever really thought those contracts would be enforced, for too many reasons to list.  But they have just seen first hand how they can be used to beat someone bloody.  And I don't think Andi ever imagined a scenario where someone would be forced to reveal what happened in the FS.  I think a new low has been set by TPTB, and those in bach nation know it.  Heck, Marquel took himself out of the running b/c he didn't want to put his family through it.  

   Murphy!..i found your posts as endearing, out of the box and refreshing. Pls Keep up the great posts.. As you prolly know, we have Nick Fan Forum as well for all things positive about Nick and his updates...  

[happygolucky]

Murphy ... I'm glad you came out   love some good old fashioned love [contractual] story (How very cynic of me?).   So thank you for sharing ... as your first ... it is a great read. Love it.   And please, don't continue in silence   

[happygolucky]

Like Stuckinsc wrote ... hating someone or disliking them is only wearing me out ...

so with time, I've made peace with what Andi did, what Nick did ... and I really have nothing more to say about their past relationship, which is what it was ...no matter how short and unreal to some.
I don't have anything to say about Josh (beside seeing good in him, just the way I see good in Marcus) ... I'm indifferent to him (not like for Marcus, where I do care a bit more, since I find some sympathy).
With time I've got to be indifferent even for Andi ... but with interaction with all of you on this forum, is hard to let things go, when there isn't much new to talk about ... just same old, reheated and over-cooked.

I tend to laugh a lot reading this thread lately ... because it is a constant contradiction.
The justifications for someone's actions change from day to night according to what needs to be dismissed. I think I'll go to my cave now. Need to cry a bit. Thank you.

[Guest]

welcome murphy!   Nikki's tweet that night supports that as well. Not sure if you were reading here a week or so before the finale, but he had something like llylvr below his name on his IG. We were speculating that it could have meant lily liver.

Nikki Ferrell @Nikki_Ferrell  ·  Jul 28
Gee I wonder who told Nick to say that....How the producers of @BachelorABC sleep at night is beyond me. #trash

[Litta123]

happy, you should join the 'Married At First Sight' thread. As I told mura, it's refreshingly different from The Bach...but it still gives a chance to explore if and how a love attachment develops. Specifically, there are no manipulations from the edit, as best I can tell.

Back on topic, murphy I enjoyed your perspective. Thanks for posting it. I concur that Nick was the machine's puppet ever since that video got out...sadly.

[notarose]

Thanks Norcalgal!  I would have loved to see the progression with Eric too - and I think he was definitely on Andi's radar as having huge potential to be well liked and a real asset on the post show appearance circuit.  But Eric also the potential to outshine Andi, and when he showed himself as much too real to play the game, while challenging her, no less, he was gone.  I think her real anger in that situation was knowing such a good candidate was out of the running.  

I am a big fan of Nick's.  I think she took him to F2 because he was a good back up plan.   He was self assured enough to do well at the media rounds.  He was a sales person - he could win people over and "sell" their story.  He had a close and loving Midwestern family.  Remember, at this point, she had no idea how bad of an edit he would be given. Andi may not have been sure if Nick would "play the game", but she knew he really did love her - and that alone would keep him in the game. But once she got her time alone from the cameras with Josh, which was after the Nick FS,  and saw that Josh was all in, well, that was it.  

I feel sorry for Nick - he really did get himself in a bind contractually, and heart broken too.  I think he dropped that FS comment because he was forced to, and cannot admit that lest he wants another breach.  And he is well versed now in how they can destroy him.

As a side note, I think the reason the bach announcement is stalled is because after seeing how freely TPTB will destroy  and humiliate someone (stalker, pedophile?  egad.) the current candidate(s) are negotiating details of their contract(s) much harder.  I don't think any of the bach nation ever really thought those contracts would be enforced, for too many reasons to list.  But they have just seen first hand how they can be used to beat someone bloody.  And I don't think Andi ever imagined a scenario where someone would be forced to reveal what happened in the FS.  I think a new low has been set by TPTB, and those in bach nation know it.  Heck, Marquel took himself out of the running b/c he didn't want to put his family through it.  

 :WAVEY:  really enjoyed your two posts, this being the second I'm referring to.
  well stated re: lucrative business opportunity for 20-something's.  Absolutely!
Perhaps not as interesting to soon to be 34 year old Nick, however, given he works for a very highly rated company according to Forbes with opportunities for advancement nationally as well as offices overseas.  Problem #1 in this scenario.

   Eric would have outshone Andi in the end however I believe he wasn't at all interested in advancing any further than he did.  I think they wanted Eric as the next Bachelor.

Now to the triangle of Nick, Andi, and Josh.
I am going to suggest a slightly different take on what went down.  The art of debate  

In the end, surprisingly Nick became the more lucrative asset to TPTB in the short term.

He outshone the "happy couple" by getting greater media coverage and coverage from media markets that the franchise has never been able to access to the extend that Nick did.  His interviews: the length of time he was given in each interview was really long. TPTB were definitely hovering like birds of prey but there were anomalies. Billy Bush openly mocked Josh with his "Jacked up Josh" reference in contrast to clear commraderie with Nick during 1 of 3 interview segments posted 2 different days. Nick was given free reign to speak at length about intimacy everywhere! Why provide film footage during Nancy O'Dell's interview that verifies intimacy? They exchanges between Nancy & Nick as well as Ali & Nick were really warm and almost affectionate.  Very counter villain.  Was TPTB really trying to "protect" their lead Andi & her fiancé?  

Why did TPTB allow Chris S to visit Nick so early in the airing of the season, and let Nick S, JJ, and Brian continually post positive things about Nick on SM from the beginning of the season onward when it was contrary to the edit?  

Why have Andi write about and speak in ITMs and her blog about the emotional, mental, and physical connection which was verified by the edit and by Nick himself in post-show interviews?

All of these curiosities do not discount the probable threat of suit by TPTB however the above does show that TPTB were not very concerned last week about protecting the image of Andi (the lead) and her chosen one Josh to the degree I feel it should. For a reason unknown to me, TPTB don't appear to be putting much effort into this new couple.  For their sake, I hope that will change soon.

If Andi really was a shrewd business woman would she really admit that "yes" she did have sex with Nick before accepting a proposal from Josh and that she wasn't ashamed of that? AND tell Nick on stage she never loved him but that everything she said to him about their mental, physical, and emotional connection was real at the time?  Josh was far more disserviced by this talk than her former lover Nick.  Nick is free of any contractual obligation (2 month gf) to her at this point while Josh is that guy who appeared with his fiancé after learning another guy on the show slept with her days before accepting his proposal. If Josh is ok with that more power to him but "in the real world" a lot of guys wouldn't tolerate it.  Just saying. I think Andi entangled herself in her own web.

I really don't think TPTB put those words in Nick's mouth.  I think they told him to "go big or go home poor" and he delivered beyond expectation.  I think he asked exactly what he wanted in order to gain overall clarity and it was a "win/win".  Nick got an answer to an authentic question and TPTB got loads of media buzz. I believe the same is true of the letter.  We agree he really did love her so he came prepared to have his words made public knowing it was a better option than enabling TPTB "stalker" edit he would have already been watching manifest on screen along with every other viewer. A letter instead of a conversation.  Another "win/win" courtesy of Nick's ingenuity.  Nick did have those feelings during filming; TPTB got even more of a Big Bang by allowing Nick's intellect to play out.  His letter was widely quoted as was his blog on Sean's site.  TIME mag was a real unexpected media first. Nick effectively transitioned out of silly talk to debatable idea talk.  Really not a bad way to exit.

Speaking of manipulation, if they had actually sued it would have made front page and NO ONE would come to castings.  Food for thought. The franchise would have to re-invent itself after a very very long commercial break.  Of course, pretrials cost money and Nick now doesn't have to worry about that. Fingers crossed.

It is perhaps unfair to stereotype Nick as a "salesman" I also feel it was unfair to stereotype Josh as a "jock".  Yes, certain skills are involved for each career/venture however people are much more dynamic than their "9 to 5". Case in point, Chris S is much more than a "farmer" and I have no doubt he will be "media smart" as well.  

Overall the season edit was seriously strange.  My hypothesis is that Nick wasn't prepared to propose within the timeline of "the process".  He strongly hinted as much during his chat with Hy... "when she is ready"/ "the time is right".
That was the beginning of the firestorm.  The tinder.

From what I've seen since the show ended, I agree with everything you've posted regarding Josh and Andi being more aligned in terms of taking advantage of opportunities within Bach nation.  I think Josh is perfect for DWTS.  He has the smile and natural extroversion and lots of female fans to up viewership. Perfect fit!

[happygolucky]

 Litta ... I'll see if I can find it streamed ... I just like good discussion about life topics/issues, I'm not that interested into the couple's life per se.
BTW ... today another day as a caddy for me   and in 2 weeks time my first lessons.
[and I thought the golf is the most boring thing I could ever do]

[Lucas15]

Mustang, some of us don't think Andi knew she was in love with Josh when she slept with Nick.  Believe her or not, but she has said she didn't know, in a few interviews.

This may seem like splitting hairs but I think a distinction needs to be made between whether Andi was in love with Josh then or whether she knew she was in love with him.  From what I understand from what she has said both during filming and post, she did not know until the morning of the proposal that she had been in love with him since she first saw him get out of the limo.   As unlikely as that may appear to many, I liken it to reaching a desired destination but not being aware that you have arrived because some substance has completely fogged up your lenses precluding clear vision.  In my opinion, And's strategy in cleaning/clearing her lenses was to gain as much knowledge and information about the guys (including, as I have speculated previously as has Lucas, how the guys' declarations of love effected her emotionally and likewise how their physical interactions impacted her) as she could throughout the process believing that her analytical abilities would help her figure out her truth and give her the clarity she needed.  And in a way her strategy worked in that she was able to realize that fear was the substance that had clouded her vision.  Once this fear was faced, it was lifted thereby offering Andi clear vision of her love for Josh.

Usually, the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions about things not readily in evidence is the best explanation (Occam's Razor). And in this case Andi has said that she didn't realize until the very end that she was in love with Josh and had been in love with him from the first moment she laid eyes on him. That's an unusual "story" and one not likely dreamed up by the show (because they don't get many fresh ideas) so I think that it has a high probability of being the correct explanation.

Was Andi very attracted to Josh from the beginning? I think the evidence suggests that she was. Was he the obvious choice all along? Was he an easy / safe choice for her to make? I think the answer to both of those is no. Josh was the guy she most feared could break her heart (which she has also said) so that was a big risk and as Doc so succinctly puts it, that clouded her vision - especially because she had one guy (Nick) professing his love and desire to marry her for a long time and another guy (Josh) who seemed to be holding back.

That all changed during the fantasy dates because Josh declared his love for her (which allayed her fears by changing her assessment of risk) and she had a very different set of emotions unlocked during her physical intimacy with Josh as compared to Nick.

I think both pieces of new information profoundly affected how she felt and unlocked a set of emotions she had not fully understood and had very possibly suppressed but once the cloud was gone she came to realize defined what love is to her. It's somewhat ironic (and unfortunate for Nick) to consider that Andi learned the meaning of "making love" that Nick has been talking about, but that it wasn't with Nick where she experienced it - it was with Josh.

[vivi2]

Ok, I have to come out of lurking.  I‘ve read  you all for years – and feel like I know many of you.  I don’t know why I’ve never bothered to register.  I go way back – Trista and Ryan.  Only missed a few in between there.  I have to borrow from the wise jlcaz - “I could have a friggin’ Phd in this show” (sadly).

But I can’t hold back anymore, because we FINALLY may really have had “the Most Dramatic ATFR Ever”.    Here’s my take on what really happened to finally lead to the MDATFRE.  But first, a little background,  as I see it:

The show has evolved to become a potentially lucrative temporary career stint for beautiful twenty something’s.  First, they must get cast as a member.  Then, depending on how many fans they gather, and how far they go on the “journey”, they have a range of options when the show ends.  At one end is simply becoming part of “Bachelor Nation”, which in itself leads to some paid appearances and sponsorships, to other paid opportunities like BIP, BP.  At the other end, is the holy grail– lead of Bachelor/ette, and maybe someday, DWTS.  

So what is the payoff for lead of Bach?  Well, there’s base pay, perks, and “bonuses”.  Perks  are the free wardrobe and free travel.  Base pay is whatever is the lead negotiates – we’ve heard between $50K – $250K.  (Supposedly Andi was at the 50K end, Sean around $100K, and Emily $250K).  
But the earning potential (sponsorships and appearances) in the two years after the show can be a real “bonus”.   Depending on the appearance, venue, and the popularity of the couple, these can be $10,000 to $50,000 each.  For comparison, Mike “the Situation” was paid around $50,000 for some appearances during the height of his popularity.   Deanna, for one, alluded to the opportunities she and Jesse could have “cashed in on” had they stayed together.  

Of course, if the happy couple makes it two years (or gets married), they get to keep the ring – usually valued around $100,000.  Whether or not they find love it’s not a bad pay day for a couple of twenty somethings.  Ahhh, but that’s the catch – in order to earn the “bonuses”, the couple must still be together, interesting, attractive, in looooove, and devoid of any scandal (*cough*sexting Jef and Emily).

The savvy Bach/ette is not looking for love – they are interviewing for a Public Relations and Business partner for a two year stint.  If they find love during the “journey”, then all the better.  But the wisest thing the Bach/ette can do is look for someone that is media friendly, will go the distance, and isn’t giving up more in their real career   (*cough*Chris) that might favor quitting early if the going gets tough.  

On that premise, Andi scored the top candidate.  Josh is fun, attractive, appealing, part of a media savvy family.  They look fantastic together.  Distance isn’t an obstacle.  They might even be on the path to love IRL.  Really, it doesn’t get any better than this. I would venture to say Andi played the game perhaps better than any bachelorette before.  Then Nick throws a wrench into the works at the eleventh hour.  Oh, I’d be mad too.

As an attorney, from the moment Andi found out about the infamous “plane video”, she had to be furious.  Because Andi would have understood that Nick’s balls were presently in the possession of TPTB, and now, anything could happen.  

Yep.  Andi was furious, when she came out on that stage.  Over the past two months she had already seen how much leverage TPTB were exerting to get dramatic moments.  (“ Andi, Nick is here at the MTA and we’d like to film him trying to meet with you to talk”,  or “Andi, here’s a letter from Nick, written by us, and posted on our Facebook page”).  She had to be wondering, how far will they take this?

And Yep, Nick was shaking when he came out on that stage– knowing he had to do what he was about to do – or be sued for a slam dunk breach. (“Nick, you spoiled the show’s dramatic ending via your breach of contract, which will cause us to lose viewership, and hence lose money.  So, you are either going to pay us cash, or you are going to participate in creating a dramatic ending”).  

And so finally, TPTB got the “MDATFRE”, Nick got a waiver on his $5 million breach of contract, Josh maneuvered expertly, and Andi discovered how very wise her choice was.  

Having said all that, I like Nick as much as any previous contestant.  I don’t believe the one sided edit.   I think Nick did something stupid (plane video) not ever expecting it to get out.  I think he paid the highest price (public denigration and humiliation), had no real choice, and handled the aftermath skillfully – which can only come from a genuine and decent place.   I like Josh.  I think he is affable, and kind, and charitable, and loving.  Anyone would be lucky to have either of these guys as a cousin or brother or neighbor.  I think Andi is an excellent reality tv actress, who played the part well, was mostly kind to the contestants (except Nick, at the end), and is very, smart.  I think she had issues with being challenged, and a dangerously big ego – not unexpected for a young, beautiful woman with a TV show.  We are all flawed.  

In summary, I think they are all doing the best they can to play this game they got into, or live in this fishbowl they are in, if you prefer.    I think the best thing for all of them, if they want to engender a positive “fan reaction” is bury the hatchet fast, and be openly kind to each other.  Mean, nasty, or bitter doesn’t look good on anyone.  I think Nick is the only one of the three who has done this well, subsequent to the MDATFRE.  

It's a very interesting post, thank you. I just have a question, do you have the "inside scoop" about Nick being forced to "perform" at ATFR? Or you're one of his friends or family? Because I didn't see the usual IMO anywhere?

Well, except for the Nick's part, all of your "opinions" are not new to me. I just google and I can get the same info or I just go to RS's website! (how much $ or perks ..etc.).

If TPTB are so "evil", why there are more "successful" couples from the franchise lately? They can't be all fake, can they?

I'd love to chat more but I have to run now, "mommy duty" as my grown-up children want me to do , every Sunday! See y'all later, ciao.

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