Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[SueSt]

Hi Murphy,

Welcome   and thanks for your thoughtful post.  Lots of interesting and new theories laid out here. I appreciate!!  

Very strong points about the financial opportunities for cast members on the show.  It’s definitely good to have it laid out for consideration.

While I think your point about TPTB staging Nick’s MTA visit is certainly possible, I still believe that what Nick said at the ATFR was not producer driven.  I mean in the moment, it would be hard for TPTB to predict how the whole thing would actually play out, right?

I believe Nick was in love with Andi and that his question came up in reaction to hearing Andi say she didn’t love him.  Like NR, I also believe there is just too much evidence that Andi did love Nick (emotional, mental, physical connection, they way she looked at him, reached for him, said she could see him proposing at the end) to believe that what she presented was all for the show.

I also agree that Josh is a wonderful guy, a good potential husband IRL and strong choice to accompany Andi on the media rounds.  In addition, Josh also presented the surer option for a proposal.  Again, to agree with NR, and if you listen to Josh and Nick’s PIs on proposal day;  Josh is all in, no hesitations, Nick is saying that he does not question his feelings for Andi, but doesn’t want to overanalyze and will likely follow his heart to propose.  This implies that the timing of the proposal is something that may not have been comfortable for Nick… and assuming Andi was aware of Nick’s hesitation (he certainly didn’t hold anything back!!)   a surer option would be Josh.

The fact that Nick was filmed on the plane was the wrench in the season, of course.  And while TPTB obviously used an edit to present Nick as the villain, in the end, they also had to work with Nick to see the show through and make a story.  Also, as NR suggests, the possibility of actually suing a contestant, who obviously was not looking to exposure the show’s outcome maliciously (speaking instead from a heartbroken perspective) might have been won in court… but in the court of public opinion, would likely have killed the goose that laid the golden egg, so to speak, and killed the show in the process… so I so think both sides had a lot to lose AND gain.

The upside for Nick, as you suggest, is that his smarts and saavy have put him in the best possible position post show.  He's expanded the show's reach (extended media rounds, Time magazine, etc...) by championing a serious issue and personally come off as thoughtful, humble, articulate and kind - particularly in contrast with Andi and Josh!

Thanks again for joining the discussion!! 

[Lucas15]

Why did TPTB allow Chris S to visit Nick so early in the airing of the season, and let Nick S, JJ, and Brian continually post positive things about Nick on SM from the beginning of the season onward when it was contrary to the edit?  

Why have Andi write about and speak in ITMs and her blog about the emotional, mental, and physical connection which was verified by the edit and by Nick himself in post-show interviews?

Possibly because as the show aired there was a very telling spoiler that normally doesn't exist; the plane video that everyone seems to have known about. By allowing "support of Nick" and having Andi make the comments that she did it made many see the spoiler as a foiler and keep the suspense about the ending more plausible. Just looking at the posts here there were about as many people who believed the spoiler was a setup foiler as a legitimate spoiler so if that was their strategy, it worked.

If Andi really was a shrewd business woman would she really admit that "yes" she did have sex with Nick before accepting a proposal from Josh and that she wasn't ashamed of that?

When Andi let Chris S go before the "private" segment of the FD she told him that there was a certain intimacy involved with that segment and she didn't really have the feelings about Chris to share that with him. So was it any surprise to learn she had been intimate with Nick? I guess some may have been surprised but Andi clearly indicated her intentions when she let Chris go and it should have come as no surprise to anyone (including Josh) what was going to happen with the two she kept.

Josh is that guy who appeared with his fiancé after learning another guy on the show slept with her days before accepting his proposal. If Josh is ok with that more power to him but "in the real world" a lot of guys wouldn't tolerate it.

And therein is the distinction. This show is not the real world and everyone who does it knows (or should know) that the lead is not in an exclusive relationship with anyone until the final rose and at the time Andi was intimate with Nick she wasn't Josh's fiancee - yet. In the real world where a guy (or a gal) expects exclusivity, it probably wouldn't be tolerated but in the context of this show it almost has to be tolerated and in this case expected because of what Andi said to Chris when she let him go. Josh got the girl he wanted and can sleep at nights knowing he was better in the sack than Nick.

Speaking of manipulation, if they had actually sued it would have made front page and NO ONE would come to castings.  Food for thought. The franchise would have to re-invent itself after a very very long commercial break.  Of course, pretrials cost money and Nick now doesn't have to worry about that. Fingers crossed.

I've been saying this exact same thing for a very long time. The contract clause is a scare tactic that the show wouldn't dare actually try and enforce. There have been a few (but only a very few) over the years who have actually called the show out on their "bluff" - and won.

Overall the season edit was seriously strange.  My hypothesis is that Nick wasn't prepared to propose within the timeline of "the process".  He strongly hinted as much during his chat with Hy... "when she is ready"/ "the time is right".

Very interesting and thought provoking observation. I clearly remember that somewhat strange conversation with Hy and thought it a bit odd that he was otherwise so apparently anxious to propose and then so vague about it when he talked to Hy. It may also signal some doubts Nick was having late in the show that he didn't have earlier.

[docnash14]

Mustang, some of us don't think Andi knew she was in love with Josh when she slept with Nick.  Believe her or not, but she has said she didn't know, in a few interviews.

This may seem like splitting hairs but I think a distinction needs to be made between whether Andi was in love with Josh then or whether she knew she was in love with him.  From what I understand from what she has said both during filming and post, she did not know until the morning of the proposal that she had been in love with him since she first saw him get out of the limo.   As unlikely as that may appear to many, I liken it to reaching a desired destination but not being aware that you have arrived because some substance has completely fogged up your lenses precluding clear vision.  In my opinion, And's strategy in cleaning/clearing her lenses was to gain as much knowledge and information about the guys (including, as I have speculated previously as has Lucas, how the guys' declarations of love effected her emotionally and likewise how their physical interactions impacted her) as she could throughout the process believing that her analytical abilities would help her figure out her truth and give her the clarity she needed.  And in a way her strategy worked in that she was able to realize that fear was the substance that had clouded her vision.  Once this fear was faced, it was lifted thereby offering Andi clear vision of her love for Josh.

Usually, the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions about things not readily in evidence is the best explanation (Occam's Razor). And in this case Andi has said that she didn't realize until the very end that she was in love with Josh and had been in love with him from the first moment she laid eyes on him. That's an unusual "story" and one not likely dreamed up by the show (because they don't get many fresh ideas) so I think that it has a high probability of being the correct explanation.

Was Andi very attracted to Josh from the beginning? I think the evidence suggests that she was. Was he the obvious choice all along? Was he an easy / safe choice for her to make? I think the answer to both of those is no. Josh was the guy she most feared could break her heart (which she has also said) so that was a big risk and as Doc so succinctly puts it, that clouded her vision - especially because she had one guy (Nick) professing his love and desire to marry her for a long time and another guy (Josh) who seemed to be holding back.

That all changed during the fantasy dates because Josh declared his love for her (which allayed her fears by changing her assessment of risk) and she had a very different set of emotions unlocked during her physical intimacy with Josh as compared to Nick.

I think both pieces of new information profoundly affected how she felt and unlocked a set of emotions she had not fully understood and had very possibly suppressed but once the cloud was gone she came to realize defined what love is to her. It's somewhat ironic (and unfortunate for Nick) to consider that Andi learned the meaning of "making love" that Nick has been talking about, but that it wasn't with Nick where she experienced it - it was with Josh.

Lucas, I couldn't have said it better myself and I love all of your philosophical references. As we have discussed previously, I concur that Josh was anything but the safe choice for Andi. I also agree that he was not the obvious choice all along in her own mind's eye due to what I believe was her clouded vision. For me, the viewer, however, I did see something different with Josh from the very beginning (i.e. their easy banter even during their first encounter at the M&G, some of Andi's facial expressions with/for him that I didn't see her have with any of the other guys). Nevertheless, the bottom line for me is that Andi did not change her mind and/o her feelings; she simply realized her feelings. And from my vantage point as a clinician, while, as you said, it may not be a usual "story", it is not a unique phenomenon.

[ironcat]

I gotta disagree with the speculation that Nick wouldn't have proposed had she chosen him.  He called what they did in the FS "fiance stuff", he did ask for Hy's permission, and we also know that he would have gotten strong encouragement (which I don't believe he would have needed) from producers to propose, so as not to end up with another season like the one before.  And if he was having such strong doubts about wanting to spend his life with Andi, I don't think he would have been so pissed off and devastated on the plane to have needed to blab.

Another hypothetical for any takers-  Let's say Nick had never spoken out on the plane, or it hadn't been heard/recorded.  How differently do people think the season would have played out with the edit/manipulations?  Would Nick have gotten a better edit?  Would he not have made any attempts to see Andi?  He did indicate he was at least considering writing her a letter.  Can all of Nick's post show behavior really be blamed on that breach of contract?

I do agree that if Nick had left things alone post show and been quiet as a church mouse, Andi probably would have thrown some more compassion/contriteness his way at the ATFR.

[Lucas15]

For me, the viewer, however, I did see something different with Josh from the very beginning (i.e. their easy banter even during their first encounter at the M&G, some of Andi's facial expressions with/for him that I didn't see her have with any of the other guys).  Nevertheless, the bottom line for me is that Andi did not change her mind and/or her feelings; she simply realized her feelings.  And from my vantage point as a clinician, while, as you said, it may not be a usual "story", it is not a unique phenomenon.

And I saw the very same thing. Andi lit up when she was with Josh in a way she never did with anyone else. Her eyes were softer, her smile more genuine and "from within". She laughed harder at his jokes and flirted more with Josh. She caved to Josh's objections to the lie detector test and she was not generally in the habit of caving but is not one aspect of love that you change for it - not because you have to - but because you want to? I see this as a transition away from "Meandi" and towards "Weandi".

Occam's Razor (again not making any assumptions) - Andi said it was while talking to Josh over a bottle of wine after their fantasy date that she realized she was with her best friend and someone she could talk to about anything / everything and that was when she "knew". I sort of see Andi solving the equation a = b + c + d (where "a" = love) backwards. She realized she had "b" and "c" and "d" with Josh and suddenly that equation solved to equal "a" (love) for her.

[stuckinsc]

I gotta disagree with the speculation that Nick wouldn't have proposed had she chosen him.  He called what they did in the FS "fiance stuff", he did ask for Hy's permission, and we also know that he would have gotten strong encouragement (which I don't believe he would have needed) from producers to propose, so as not to end up with another season like the one before.  And if he was having such strong doubts about wanting to spend his life with Andi, I don't think he would have been so pissed off and devastated on the plane to have needed to blab.

Another hypothetical for any takers-  Let's say Nick had never spoken out on the plane, or it hadn't been heard/recorded.  How differently do people think the season would have played out with the edit/manipulations?  Would Nick have gotten a better edit?  Would he not have made any attempts to see Andi?  He did indicate he was at least considering writing her a letter.  Can all of Nick's post show behavior really be blamed on that breach of contract?

I do agree that if Nick had left things alone post show and been quiet as a church mouse, Andi probably would have thrown some more compassion/contriteness his way at the ATFR.

IC, this is only my opinion.  I think the letter and the attempts to contact Andi came from TPTB planting seeds of doubt in his ear.  Andi isn't happy with Josh, it isn't what she thought it would be.  Even on the plane video with Nick talking about Jason and Molly, to me that was his handler mentioning that in the couple of days they held him in seclusion.

Without the prodding from TPTB, I think Nick would have let go, but that is only my opinion and not fact and honestly, there is no way to ever know since the video was taken.

I also think that Andi not clearly stating that she just loved Josh more when she let Nick go made this manipulation easier.  I have posted this opinion before and well, not many agree.

I also thought Andi's extended talking about JPG last season was TPTB encouraged and not Andi motivated.

[stuckinsc]

Ok, I have to come out of lurking.  I‘ve read  you all for years – and feel like I know many of you.  I don’t know why I’ve never bothered to register.  I go way back – Trista and Ryan.  Only missed a few in between there.  I have to borrow from the wise jlcaz - “I could have a friggin’ Phd in this show” (sadly).

But I can’t hold back anymore, because we FINALLY may really have had “the Most Dramatic ATFR Ever”.    Here’s my take on what really happened to finally lead to the MDATFRE.  But first, a little background,  as I see it:

The show has evolved to become a potentially lucrative temporary career stint for beautiful twenty something’s.  First, they must get cast as a member.  Then, depending on how many fans they gather, and how far they go on the “journey”, they have a range of options when the show ends.  At one end is simply becoming part of “Bachelor Nation”, which in itself leads to some paid appearances and sponsorships, to other paid opportunities like BIP, BP.  At the other end, is the holy grail– lead of Bachelor/ette, and maybe someday, DWTS.  

So what is the payoff for lead of Bach?  Well, there’s base pay, perks, and “bonuses”.  Perks  are the free wardrobe and free travel.  Base pay is whatever is the lead negotiates – we’ve heard between $50K – $250K.  (Supposedly Andi was at the 50K end, Sean around $100K, and Emily $250K).  
But the earning potential (sponsorships and appearances) in the two years after the show can be a real “bonus”.   Depending on the appearance, venue, and the popularity of the couple, these can be $10,000 to $50,000 each.  For comparison, Mike “the Situation” was paid around $50,000 for some appearances during the height of his popularity.   Deanna, for one, alluded to the opportunities she and Jesse could have “cashed in on” had they stayed together.  

Of course, if the happy couple makes it two years (or gets married), they get to keep the ring – usually valued around $100,000.  Whether or not they find love it’s not a bad pay day for a couple of twenty somethings.  Ahhh, but that’s the catch – in order to earn the “bonuses”, the couple must still be together, interesting, attractive, in looooove, and devoid of any scandal (*cough*sexting Jef and Emily).

The savvy Bach/ette is not looking for love – they are interviewing for a Public Relations and Business partner for a two year stint.  If they find love during the “journey”, then all the better.  But the wisest thing the Bach/ette can do is look for someone that is media friendly, will go the distance, and isn’t giving up more in their real career   (*cough*Chris) that might favor quitting early if the going gets tough.  

On that premise, Andi scored the top candidate.  Josh is fun, attractive, appealing, part of a media savvy family.  They look fantastic together.  Distance isn’t an obstacle.  They might even be on the path to love IRL.  Really, it doesn’t get any better than this. I would venture to say Andi played the game perhaps better than any bachelorette before.  Then Nick throws a wrench into the works at the eleventh hour.  Oh, I’d be mad too.

As an attorney, from the moment Andi found out about the infamous “plane video”, she had to be furious.  Because Andi would have understood that Nick’s balls were presently in the possession of TPTB, and now, anything could happen.  

Yep.  Andi was furious, when she came out on that stage.  Over the past two months she had already seen how much leverage TPTB were exerting to get dramatic moments.  (“ Andi, Nick is here at the MTA and we’d like to film him trying to meet with you to talk”,  or “Andi, here’s a letter from Nick, written by us, and posted on our Facebook page”).  She had to be wondering, how far will they take this?

And Yep, Nick was shaking when he came out on that stage– knowing he had to do what he was about to do – or be sued for a slam dunk breach. (“Nick, you spoiled the show’s dramatic ending via your breach of contract, which will cause us to lose viewership, and hence lose money.  So, you are either going to pay us cash, or you are going to participate in creating a dramatic ending”).  

And so finally, TPTB got the “MDATFRE”, Nick got a waiver on his $5 million breach of contract, Josh maneuvered expertly, and Andi discovered how very wise her choice was.  

Having said all that, I like Nick as much as any previous contestant.  I don’t believe the one sided edit.   I think Nick did something stupid (plane video) not ever expecting it to get out.  I think he paid the highest price (public denigration and humiliation), had no real choice, and handled the aftermath skillfully – which can only come from a genuine and decent place.   I like Josh.  I think he is affable, and kind, and charitable, and loving.  Anyone would be lucky to have either of these guys as a cousin or brother or neighbor.  I think Andi is an excellent reality tv actress, who played the part well, was mostly kind to the contestants (except Nick, at the end), and is very, smart.  I think she had issues with being challenged, and a dangerously big ego – not unexpected for a young, beautiful woman with a TV show.  We are all flawed.  

In summary, I think they are all doing the best they can to play this game they got into, or live in this fishbowl they are in, if you prefer.    I think the best thing for all of them, if they want to engender a positive “fan reaction” is bury the hatchet fast, and be openly kind to each other.  Mean, nasty, or bitter doesn’t look good on anyone.  I think Nick is the only one of the three who has done this well, subsequent to the MDATFRE.  

Welcome murphy and thanks for coming to share your perspective and opinion with us.  

[ironcat]

I gotta disagree with the speculation that Nick wouldn't have proposed had she chosen him.  He called what they did in the FS "fiance stuff", he did ask for Hy's permission, and we also know that he would have gotten strong encouragement (which I don't believe he would have needed) from producers to propose, so as not to end up with another season like the one before.  And if he was having such strong doubts about wanting to spend his life with Andi, I don't think he would have been so pissed off and devastated on the plane to have needed to blab.

Another hypothetical for any takers-  Let's say Nick had never spoken out on the plane, or it hadn't been heard/recorded.  How differently do people think the season would have played out with the edit/manipulations?  Would Nick have gotten a better edit?  Would he not have made any attempts to see Andi?  He did indicate he was at least considering writing her a letter.  Can all of Nick's post show behavior really be blamed on that breach of contract?

I do agree that if Nick had left things alone post show and been quiet as a church mouse, Andi probably would have thrown some more compassion/contriteness his way at the ATFR.

IC, this is only my opinion.  I think the letter and the attempts to contact Andi came from TPTB planting seeds of doubt in his ear.  Andi isn't happy with Josh, it isn't what she thought it would be.  Even on the plane video with Nick talking about Jason and Molly, to me that was his handler mentioning that in the couple of days they held him in seclusion.

Without the prodding from TPTB, I think Nick would have let go, but that is only my opinion and not fact and honestly, there is no way to ever know since the video was taken.

I also think that Andi not clearly stating that she just loved Josh more when she let Nick go made this manipulation easier.  I have posted this opinion before and well, not many agree.

I also thought Andi's extended talking about JPG last season was TPTB encouraged and not Andi motivated.

Stuck, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. The producers definitely saw what they had and fanned the flames. They don't always get a season where the final two people REALLY fall for the lead, and the lead REALLY sees a future with both of them until late in the game. This was one. But I also think they would have done the same even if there had been no video to hold over his head, and I think that Nick would have gone along.  

[notarose]

Why did TPTB allow Chris S to visit Nick so early in the airing of the season, and let Nick S, JJ, and Brian continually post positive things about Nick on SM from the beginning of the season onward when it was contrary to the edit?  

Why have Andi write about and speak in ITMs and her blog about the emotional, mental, and physical connection which was verified by the edit and by Nick himself in post-show interviews?

Possibly because as the show aired there was a very telling spoiler that normally doesn't exist; the plane video that everyone seems to have known about. By allowing "support of Nick" and having Andi make the comments that she did it made many see the spoiler as a foiler and keep the suspense about the ending more plausible. Just looking at the posts here there were about as many people who believed the spoiler was a setup foiler as a legitimate spoiler so if that was their strategy, it worked.

If Andi really was a shrewd business woman would she really admit that "yes" she did have sex with Nick before accepting a proposal from Josh and that she wasn't ashamed of that?

When Andi let Chris S go before the "private" segment of the FD she told him that there was a certain intimacy involved with that segment and she didn't really have the feelings about Chris to share that with him. So was it any surprise to learn she had been intimate with Nick? I guess some may have been surprised but Andi clearly indicated her intentions when she let Chris go and it should have come as no surprise to anyone (including Josh) what was going to happen with the two she kept.

Josh is that guy who appeared with his fiancé after learning another guy on the show slept with her days before accepting his proposal. If Josh is ok with that more power to him but "in the real world" a lot of guys wouldn't tolerate it.

And therein is the distinction. This show is not the real world and everyone who does it knows (or should know) that the lead is not in an exclusive relationship with anyone until the final rose and at the time Andi was intimate with Nick she wasn't Josh's fiancee - yet. In the real world where a guy (or a gal) expects exclusivity, it probably wouldn't be tolerated but in the context of this show it almost has to be tolerated and in this case expected because of what Andi said to Chris when she let him go. Josh got the girl he wanted and can sleep at nights knowing he was better in the sack than Nick.

Speaking of manipulation, if they had actually sued it would have made front page and NO ONE would come to castings.  Food for thought. The franchise would have to re-invent itself after a very very long commercial break.  Of course, pretrials cost money and Nick now doesn't have to worry about that. Fingers crossed.

I've been saying this exact same thing for a very long time. The contract clause is a scare tactic that the show wouldn't dare actually try and enforce. There have been a few (but only a very few) over the years who have actually called the show out on their "bluff" - and won.

Overall the season edit was seriously strange.  My hypothesis is that Nick wasn't prepared to propose within the timeline of "the process".  He strongly hinted as much during his chat with Hy... "when she is ready"/ "the time is right".

Very interesting and thought provoking observation. I clearly remember that somewhat strange conversation with Hy and thought it a bit odd that he was otherwise so apparently anxious to propose and then so vague about it when he talked to Hy. It may also signal some doubts Nick was having late in the show that he didn't have earlier.

 :WAVEY:  Lucas, my point about the FS was that an engagement on the show becomes "real world".  The show may have it's "process" but today Josh has a fiancé with a particular history that she chose. There is no realistic "exclusivity" in terms of foreplay however I still contend her saying in an interview post-show that she is a woman and can do what she wants, with Josh standing beside her, is beyond the call of duty for the show.
Also, Josh was recently baptized in the Catholic Church.  He is a recent "convert".  They must have talked about his religious views at some point since marriage usual involves a religious ceremony. An upcoming marriage is "real world" as well. After HTDs, I think the mindset of contestants can move away from show format to serious thought about what an engagement means going forward. That is dependent on personalities.  

In some epi before HTDs, Josh specifically told her he broke up with his last girlfriend because she had called him to tell him she had gone out and kissed a guy and apparently regretted it and wanted him to know.  He told Andi he had broken off that relationship because he had been cheated on.  They, at the time, discussed how they had both been cheated on.  She had lived through the same experience so knew the full force of that type of action. That knowledge, to me, should have also played a greater role in Andi's FS decisions particularly in respect to Josh.  

Just clarifying where my focus was in this and why I used the word "disservice".  

As to FS quality, it takes 2 to tango and synchronicity is dependent of who's who.  Maybe that played into Nick's doubt as well.   Timing.

   enjoyed reading your comments. I agree, the "contract" has it's holes.  It's likely much tighter regarding the lead because the future financial perks are much more lucrative but for contestants there are limitations on what the franchise can effectively enforce and it would be more of a headache to try to enforce.  It would open up the franchise to greater transparency than think it wants.

[Lucas15]

Another hypothetical for any takers-  Let's say Nick had never spoken out on the plane, or it hadn't been heard/recorded.  How differently do people think the season would have played out with the edit/manipulations?  Would Nick have gotten a better edit?  Would he not have made any attempts to see Andi?  He did indicate he was at least considering writing her a letter.  Can all of Nick's post show behavior really be blamed on that breach of contract?

I do agree that if Nick had left things alone post show and been quiet as a church mouse, Andi probably would have thrown some more compassion/contriteness his way at the ATFR.

Great questions and thought provoking.

I think Nick got his wrists slapped by the show over the video but I don't believe that it affected anything that happened post filming; I think that was all going to happen anyway. Inverting my logic, in order for me to believe that what Nick did after filming (eg letter, attempts to meet with Andi, up to asking "the question" on the ATFR) was the result of pressure over his breach of contract then I have to believe that what he did was just a fake act he was forced to put on.  As much as I don't approve of all he did, I think he did what was in his heart and was not just an act.

[Lucas15]

   enjoyed reading your comments. I agree, the "contract" has it's holes.  It's likely much tighter regarding the lead because the future financial perks are much more lucrative but for contestants there are limitations on what the franchise can effectively enforce and it would be more of a headache to try to enforce.  It would open up the franchise to greater transparency than think it wants.

I've read an old contract and it's written in such a way that it could be used for either the lead or a contestant (eg "if I and the Bachelor (or, if I am the Bachelor, I and any of the Bachelorettes)"); I don't think the contract per se is tighter but the effect of it is - as you point out the lead has more "at stake" because the goodwill of the show can mean more to the lead in terms of lucrative opportunities down the road. The notion of the show taking legal steps to collect on that punitive clause boggles my mind because of the negative publicity and what could / would come out at trial (and in public) if someone chose to contest the contract. And with $5,000,000 at stake who would NOT contest it????

There may be more but I am only aware of one instance where the contract was challenged by someone and the show folded like a cheap camera.

[pander3575]

This may seem like splitting hairs but I think a distinction needs to be made between whether Andi was in love with Josh then or whether she knew she was in love with him.  From what I understand from what she has said both during filming and post, she did not know until the morning of the proposal that she had been in love with him since she first saw him get out of the limo.   As unlikely as that may appear to many, I liken it to reaching a desired destination but not being aware that you have arrived because some substance has completely fogged up your lenses precluding clear vision.  In my opinion, And's strategy in cleaning/clearing her lenses was to gain as much knowledge and information about the guys (including, as I have speculated previously as has Lucas, how the guys' declarations of love effected her emotionally and likewise how their physical interactions impacted her) as she could throughout the process believing that her analytical abilities would help her figure out her truth and give her the clarity she needed.  And in a way her strategy worked in that she was able to realize that fear was the substance that had clouded her vision.  Once this fear was faced, it was lifted thereby offering Andi clear vision of her love for Josh.

Usually, the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions about things not readily in evidence is the best explanation (Occam's Razor). And in this case Andi has said that she didn't realize until the very end that she was in love with Josh and had been in love with him from the first moment she laid eyes on him. That's an unusual "story" and one not likely dreamed up by the show (because they don't get many fresh ideas) so I think that it has a high probability of being the correct explanation.

Was Andi very attracted to Josh from the beginning? I think the evidence suggests that she was. Was he the obvious choice all along? Was he an easy / safe choice for her to make? I think the answer to both of those is no. Josh was the guy she most feared could break her heart (which she has also said) so that was a big risk and as Doc so succinctly puts it, that clouded her vision - especially because she had one guy (Nick) professing his love and desire to marry her for a long time and another guy (Josh) who seemed to be holding back.

That all changed during the fantasy dates because Josh declared his love for her (which allayed her fears by changing her assessment of risk) and she had a very different set of emotions unlocked during her physical intimacy with Josh as compared to Nick.

I think both pieces of new information profoundly affected how she felt and unlocked a set of emotions she had not fully understood and had very possibly suppressed but once the cloud was gone she came to realize defined what love is to her. It's somewhat ironic (and unfortunate for Nick) to consider that Andi learned the meaning of "making love" that Nick has been talking about, but that it wasn't with Nick where she experienced it - it was with Josh.

Lucas, I couldn't have said it better myself and I love all of your philosophical references.  As we have discussed previously, I concur that Josh was anything but the safe choice for Andi.  I also agree that he was not the obvious choice all along in her own mind's eye due to what I believe was her clouded vision.  For me, the viewer, however, I did see something different with Josh from the very beginning (i.e. their easy banter even during their first encounter at the M&G, some of Andi's facial expressions with/for him that I didn't see her have with any of the other guys).  Nevertheless, the bottom line for me is that Andi did not change her mind and/o her feelings; she simply realized her feelings.  And from my vantage point as a clinician, while, as you said, it may not be a usual "story", it is not a unique phenomenon.

  
  Docnash and Lucas. Love reading your thoughts and I also agree with.

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