Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion

ironcat wrote:Whether he did or he didn't, I think it's easier for people to believe that Nick planned to embarrass Andi on ATFR due to the way he came across on the show, as being so cocky and dismissive of every guy's feelings except his own.

If I had been Andi, the thing that would have insulted me the most as far as Nick's post filming behavior (excluding the blurt out) would be the note.  That was not an attempt at closure but a "pitch" for another chance with her and a "dig" at her personally for being too chicken to make the "right" choice.  Even if the producers were telling him that she was unhappy with Josh, that still wasn't his place.  Even his admirer Sharleen said that the decision for a "Mesnick" was 100% HER call, not his.

Bottom line is that both did/handled things poorly, and those things kept the ball rolling and prompted further poor decisions/behavior on the other's part.  

That note is the kind of thing people can and should write to get their feelings out and help with the process of closure.  However, and here is a key caveat:  you aren't supposed to actually send it!  I can't help but wonder if his handler was involved in encouraging that second step - the show loves drama.  

And, we have to remember, Andi left that door open in her break up conversation with Nick.  I realize that was because of the "show" and having to leave some suspense for if she was going to choose Josh or no one, but her refusal to do more than shrug left it open for Nick to believe she either wasn't with anyone, or wasn't all that sure about Josh.  I agree that no way could a letter ever change the results, but we can expect there was a handler whispering something different in Nick's ear, and basically convincing him that what we know makes him look like a fool, won't actually do so.

The only cockiness I saw in him during filming was fed by Andi's actions.  In front of Nick and often in front of the guys, she treated him as her favorite.  Nick is the kind of man I feel I know really, really well, living out here surrounded by tech.

The guy's main issue is that his social skills are a bit flawed, and people refuse to allow for that because he is in sales.  But remember:  he is in sales (or, actually, a sales EXECUTIVE) in the TECH industry, where everyone's social skills are a bit flawed.  He isn't expected to make a product look like something it isn't; he is expected to know the technical qualities of his product and match it to the right buyer.  He doesn't have to be slick at all and, in fact, being false, ever, would make him less relatable to his clients.

Totally agree that for many people it is just easier to believe the slip was calculated. But I just don't see how anyone gets there.

Totally agree both Andi and Nick made mistakes.  I'm willing to forgive them both; they are human, and not used to the glare of media. I like to see good things in both their futures. They gave of themselves to entertain me; I owe them.

GrahamGal wrote:

Alanna wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

It is my opinion and my opinion only that TPTB was telling him that she was uncertain with her decision and might pull a Jason.  I have no proof.  I think all the SM was a man who was attempting to court her.  Maybe not the nicest thing to Josh, but if he was told that she wasn't certain, I can understand.  What I saw of her breaking up with that left it open.  She didn't discuss with him that she just had more feelings for Josh.

I don't know what happened, but I put nothing past TPTB, they love to mess with peoples lives.  With Nick and the plane video, he was an extra big target.

The plane video has been discussed ad naseum, but I do want to ask something.  Nick thought he was having a private conversation with his parents about his heart break, and it was recorded against his will and violated his privacy.

Haven't most of us said much worse about an ex and the new person they are with than Nick did?  It wasn't something he intended for anyone but his parents to hear.

I can't understand everyone hating him for words he thought he said in private.  I have said much worse in private and public about my ex's and the new people they are with.

The video was not a conscious effort on Nick's part to be rude to Andi or Josh.  I guess for me, a little understanding on their part for the video, would have gone a long way for me.  I understand being upset about the AFTR a lot more than the video.

I don't know what Nick thought he was doing with his (imo ridiculous) sm all season, but he really wasn't listening to Andi because her sm was very obvious to me, and it was obvious that she was very happy and in love with the man she chose. If Nick posting all that stuff was his attempt to court her vs embarrass her and wreak havoc on Jodi, he really needed to pay better attention to her, watch the show, and pay attention to her behavior post-show. We were able to collect an entire thread of sm clues from her where she was very clear about what she wanted imo. If he didn't listen, I don't know how that can be helped. Andi certainly did everything she could in the sm world.

Right?  I mean good God, the unspoiled side only started to look at twitter once the final two were set and what we found only solidified that Josh was F1 to us.  Nick even said after watching it back he could see what they had.  So out of the Bachelor Bubble why what would even give him the idea a Mesnick was possible.  TPTB could, but once out of the Bubble you would think he was smart enough to "get a clue, she's over you".  As for the $5M over his head, as I said he only has himself to blame.  Still doesn't mean he had to go where he did knowing Andi is happily engaged to Josh.  This all is of course only my opinion.

I do think TPTB were considering Nick for the next "B" and that was his "audition" to test the waters on how people responded to him on the ATFR. He was being portrayed as the poor broken hearted dumped F2 that deserves his chance at happiness. I don't remember anything regarding trying to get back with Andi or anything like that. it was more like trying to make people feel sorry for him. If not, I don't understand why he would agree to the filming in Milwaukee and having his mother crying on camera. I'm sure he was told that he needed to make people feel sorry for him so they would be supportive. That is the only real explanation to me for his behavior. If this wasn't part of it, then why would he agree to all to all of that, because he knew he would be able to see her at the ATFR and if things weren't going well with Josh, he could make his attempt to get back with her. There was a lot more to all of this, IMO.

dw_a_mom wrote:

ironcat wrote:Whether he did or he didn't, I think it's easier for people to believe that Nick planned to embarrass Andi on ATFR due to the way he came across on the show, as being so cocky and dismissive of every guy's feelings except his own.

If I had been Andi, the thing that would have insulted me the most as far as Nick's post filming behavior (excluding the blurt out) would be the note.  That was not an attempt at closure but a "pitch" for another chance with her and a "dig" at her personally for being too chicken to make the "right" choice.  Even if the producers were telling him that she was unhappy with Josh, that still wasn't his place.  Even his admirer Sharleen said that the decision for a "Mesnick" was 100% HER call, not his.

Bottom line is that both did/handled things poorly, and those things kept the ball rolling and prompted further poor decisions/behavior on the other's part.  

That note is the kind of thing people can and should write to get their feelings out and help with the process of closure.  However, and here is a key caveat:  you aren't supposed to actually send it!  I can't help but wonder if his handler was involved in encouraging that second step - the show loves drama.  

And, we have to remember, Andi left that door open in her break up conversation with Nick.  I realize that was because of the "show" and having to leave some suspense for if she was going to choose Josh or no one, but her refusal to do more than shrug left it open for Nick to believe she either wasn't with anyone, or wasn't all that sure about Josh.  I agree that no way could a letter ever change the results, but we can expect there was a handler whispering something different in Nick's ear, and basically convincing him that what we know makes him look like a fool, won't actually do so.

The only cockiness I saw in him during filming was fed by Andi's actions.  In front of Nick and often in front of the guys, she treated him as her favorite.  Nick is the kind of man I feel I know really, really well, living out here surrounded by tech.

The guy's main issue is that his social skills are a bit flawed, and people refuse to allow for that because he is in sales.  But remember:  he is in sales (or, actually, a sales EXECUTIVE) in the TECH industry, where everyone's social skills are a bit flawed.  He isn't expected to make a product look like something it isn't; he is expected to know the technical qualities of his product and match it to the right buyer.  He doesn't have to be slick at all and, in fact, being false, ever, would make him less relatable to his clients.

Totally agree both Andi and Nick made mistakes.  I'm willing to forgive them both.

I was just posting on Nick's thread that he should have ripped up the letter and not sent it! Great minds think alike.   

Nick's fans didn't see him as manipulative and cocky, but the general viewing public sure did. How much of it was the edit and how much comes from his real personality is still up for debate.

ironcat wrote:

Nick's fans didn't see him as manipulative and cocky, but the general viewing public sure did.  How much of it was the edit and how much comes from his real personality is still up for debate.

Yeah, I don't trust the general viewing public.  That is still the same group that would call someone like my son (who as Aspergers) shifty because he doesn't look them in the eye the way they are used to.

It isn't cocky to know admit you know what you are good at, or when someone likes you.  

The problem, of course, when the WAY you admit these things is calculated to make someone else feel like they don't have them.  And I guess he didn't have the social skills to avoid making the guys in the house feel slighted.  It never seemed calculated to me; it seemed like a lack of understanding the required social skills for the kinds of guys he was with. Nick practically lives on another planet than some of those guys, being in Tech.

Andi and Nick are BOTH to blame for this mess. I believe much of it was producer driven or because of the threat of breach of contract penalty. TPTB held the cards, and made all parties on this show look bad, IMO. The stuff ON TV I can explain away with this reasoning.

However, it is with my strongest conviction that I say this: The fact that Andi is besties with that horribly insensitive Kelly who says the most foul things about everybody on SM is the biggest proof I need to show that Andi is what I would call a Mean Girl. I just went to kelly's twitter to read some of the things she has posted all season long. On MTA nite when Ashley got her ultrasound, the man said "Your fluid is good". Kelly then turns that into a crude joke about Andi and her final two guys. Is it an wonder after associating with Kelly post show that Andi showed up to ATFR without an ounce of empathy in her body. I mean she was low on empathy to begin with, and Kelly sapped the last of it right out of her. They remind me of a pack of wild hyenas. No wonder Josh wants her to move in with him, to get her away from horrible Kelly. I do believe Andi when she said she is a bratty diva. Buyer beware!!

MiaHawk wrote:Andi and Nick are BOTH to blame for this mess.  I believe much of it was producer driven or because of the threat of breach of contract penalty.  TPTB held the cards, and made all parties on this show look bad, IMO.  The stuff ON TV I can explain away with this reasoning.  

However, it is with my strongest conviction that I say this: The fact that Andi is besties with that horribly insensitive Kelly who says the most foul things about everybody on SM is the biggest proof I need to show that Andi is what I would call a Mean Girl.  I just went to kelly's twitter to read some of the things she has posted all season long.  On MTA nite when Ashley got her ultrasound, the man said "Your fluid is good".  Kelly then turns that into a crude joke about Andi and her final two guys.  Is it an wonder after associating with Kelly post show that Andi showed up to ATFR without an ounce of empathy in her body.  I mean she was low on empathy to begin with, and Kelly sapped the last of it right out of her.  They remind me of a pack of wild hyenas.  No wonder Josh wants her to move in with him, to get her away from horrible Kelly.  I do believe Andi when she said she is a bratty diva.  Buyer beware!!

I'm glad then that I don't follow these people on social media!

I think Josh can handle the bratty diva. One of his strengths in this relationship. Even if I wasn't pleased with the negativity he expressed about Nick; but all he did then was show he was human to me.

When we have control to help someone find closure to someone who is hurt, IMO as a common courtesy, because we are only here for a good time and not a long time, it's the decent thing to do. Just the way I roll in life. Compassion is first regardless of the situation.

Whether Andi felt it was real with Nick or not, she should have felt some sort of compassion letting him go, for either leading him on, or for the good relationship she did have with him. It's like she purposely held back any logical reasoning.

While Josh was over the moon during the FRC, I didn't find her totally into the moment like he was. She has proven without a doubt, don't voice your opinions to her, don't say anything she doesn't want to hear. Josh has the ability to inject humour in serious discussions, which I love. I hope there doesn't come a time when she throws that back in his face.

Admin wrote:Moved from the Fan thread.

Laura Walsh wrote:Two things to comment on.

When JODI were on JKL he asked, "Do you keep the other one around for the show or what?"  At that point Andi turned to Josh and they gave each other a look but Andi replied in the appropriate manner.  IMO the look with Josh was yeah, that's it.  But again she took the high road.  She could have paid Nick back for embarrassing her by saying, yes, that's what we do.  But she didn't.

Also the Bob Beckel remark.  He said after he called her that bad name, "And she didn't even tell him."

Where did he get that information from?  According to Josh Andi told him about it.  And Andi said this in front of Josh and he agreed that she had told him.

IMO I remember the discussion on the night of the FSD with Josh that people remarked that Andi looked pensive (my word) at times on the date.  I think that was because she was with Josh and she was remembering the FSD with Nick and maybe realized she had made a bad mistake.  I truly believe that she might have even told Josh about it that night and told Josh she would understand if he didn't want to go through with it.  And I also believe that, although, Josh was probably hurt for sure, he said that didn't change his mind.  As mommamurray said Josh concentrated on what she did after he became engaged to her.  (This is all my speculation.)

On the Finale she kept saying in VO.  This whole thing could blow up in my face.  And after the engagement when Josh was carrying her away she said to Josh, thank you for sticking with me.  Maybe she was thinking that Josh might change his mind about becoming engaged because of what she had told him.

It would be interesting to hear what DocNash would think about this.

It is my belief that he who has never ever made a mistake in their life and wishes they could have a do over can speak out about the mistakes of others as much as they want.  IMO nobody would be able to speak out including me.

IMO, I don't have a problem with leads having a job to do by choosing and keeping around their F2-F3 to complete a full season.  But to keep someone around just to sleep with them, knowing you never loved them when you know that they love you, is what many are having a hard time understanding about Andi.  If she knew she loved Josh already, there is no excuse, IMO.  So no, she can't just come out and say she just kept Nick around because it would just raise more eyebrows about her FS night with him.

Josh was unfairly labeled by Andi all season long (and the edit) as the guy she couldn't trust or is "too good to be true".  And she was so upset at him being upset over the lie detector, when he was frustrated by that time because it was like he just couldn't catch a break with her.  Even on the FS date when they were having dinner (before sleeping with him), she was still questioning him.  And this is after she already had sex with Nick.  What's so ironic about all of this now is that it is Andi, even on a larger scale due to public opinion, is the one being questioned if she is "too good to be true" for Josh or if he can really trust her.  The tables have turned and it's much worse for her. IMO The wonderful thing about Josh is that he comes off as more understanding, so I'm sure he's not questioning her and putting her on the hot seat like she did to him all season. IMO

kellkell wrote:snipped..

What's so ironic about all of this now is that it is Andi, even on a larger scale due to public opinion, is the one being questioned if she is "too good to be true" for Josh or if he can really trust her.  The tables have turned and it's much worse for her.  IMO

This was always my thought regardless of who she chose.

Admin wrote:Moved from the Fan thread.

Laura Walsh wrote:Two things to comment on.

When JODI were on JKL he asked, "Do you keep the other one around for the show or what?"  At that point Andi turned to Josh and they gave each other a look but Andi replied in the appropriate manner.  IMO the look with Josh was yeah, that's it.  But again she took the high road.  She could have paid Nick back for embarrassing her by saying, yes, that's what we do.  But she didn't.

Also the Bob Beckel remark.  He said after he called her that bad name, "And she didn't even tell him."

Where did he get that information from?  According to Josh Andi told him about it.  And Andi said this in front of Josh and he agreed that she had told him.

IMO I remember the discussion on the night of the FSD with Josh that people remarked that Andi looked pensive (my word) at times on the date.  I think that was because she was with Josh and she was remembering the FSD with Nick and maybe realized she had made a bad mistake.  I truly believe that she might have even told Josh about it that night and told Josh she would understand if he didn't want to go through with it.  And I also believe that, although, Josh was probably hurt for sure, he said that didn't change his mind.  As mommamurray said Josh concentrated on what she did after he became engaged to her.  (This is all my speculation.)

On the Finale she kept saying in VO.  This whole thing could blow up in my face.  And after the engagement when Josh was carrying her away she said to Josh, thank you for sticking with me.  Maybe she was thinking that Josh might change his mind about becoming engaged because of what she had told him.

It would be interesting to hear what DocNash would think about this.

It is my belief that he who has never ever made a mistake in their life and wishes they could have a do over can speak out about the mistakes of others as much as they want.  IMO nobody would be able to speak out including me.

  ITA. These two belong together. The bolded was also my observation that I wrote on the fan thread. She did have a look of regrets on her face in the fantasy suite.I really believe that If Josh date was first, she would not have slept with NIck.
I totally agree with the body language doctor that "These 2 are the most in love couple I have seen on the show." Their LCD was IMO the best date of all times. They are madly in love and those who are not fans can say all they want, These 2 will definitely make it.

I don't know if they will definitely make it but I think they have a great shot a lot better than others. I just hope all three just step away from the media now that they aren't sanctioned to by TPTB and get on with their lives.

GuardianAngel wrote:When we have control to help someone find closure to someone who is hurt, IMO as a common courtesy, because we are only here for a good time and not a long time, it's the decent thing to do. Just the way I roll in life. Compassion is first regardless of the situation.

Whether Andi felt it was real with Nick or not, she should have felt some sort of compassion letting him go, for either leading him on, or for the good relationship she did have with him. It's like she purposely held back any logical reasoning.

While Josh was over the moon during the FRC, I didn't find her totally into the moment like he was. She has proven without a doubt, don't voice your opinions to her, don't say anything she doesn't want to hear. Josh has the ability to inject humour in serious discussions, which I love. I hope there doesn't come a time when she throws that back in his face.

The bold part is very true. I obviously can understand Andi being emotionally spent and hurt but I can also understand it from Nick's pov (even though I totally disagree with his revelation at atfr). Unfortunately for all three of them this all spilled over into tabloids and became messier than it needed to be. But you're so right in saying we are not here for a long time. That's the perspective all of them and everyone for that matter should take when it comes to matters of the heart.