Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion

I wonder if Andi was listening backstage to the pre-recorded package of Nick in Milwaukee and his attempt to see her at the MTA? Even then, weeks after the show ended for him and weeks after Josh/Andi's engagement...Nick on his video package was still stating his opinion that Josh was not right for Andi, that he was the "safe" choice, what she was familiar with, that he hoped Andi would read his letter and because of his words, hopefully change her mind and start over with him; suggesting that what she had with Josh could never compare to the amazingness she had with him if only she'd get over her fear. Seriously? If Andi was not the warm and fuzzy girl he hoped she'd be upon seeing him; I can't say I blame her....all things considered. After what I sill consider to be, a very calculated choice by him to reveal the intimate details of the FS (it slipped, my arse, )...all it did is confirm to Andi as if she had any doubts that she made the right choice and that her heart lead her to the right man for her.

Acrunch wrote:I wonder if Andi was listening backstage to the pre-recorded package of Nick in Milwaukee and his attempt to see her at the MTA?  Even then, weeks after the show ended for him and weeks after Josh/Andi's engagement...Nick on his video package was still stating his opinion that Josh was not right for Andi, that he was the "safe" choice, what she was familiar with, that he hoped Andi would read his letter and because of his words, hopefully change her mind and start over with him; suggesting that what she had with Josh could never compare to the amazingness she had with him if only she'd get over her fear.  Seriously?  If Andi was not the warm and fuzzy girl he hoped she'd be upon seeing him; I can't say I blame her....all things considered.  After what I sill consider to be, a very calculated choice by him to reveal the intimate details of the FS (it slipped, my arse, )...all it did is confirm to Andi as if she had any doubts that she made the right choice and that her heart lead her to the right man for her.  

Acrunch, I've been thinking along similar lines for Andi this morning. There's a blessing in disguise for her in all this. It's not likely now that Andi will ever have that moment when she looks back and wonders, "What if...". IMO, the door for any kind wondering in her heart regarding a relationship with Nick is firmly closed, locked and sealed shut. If/when she hits a rough patch with Josh, there's never going to be that other guy floating around in her brain/heart. So, there's that...just trying to make some lemonade.

Litta123 wrote:

Acrunch wrote:I wonder if Andi was listening backstage to the pre-recorded package of Nick in Milwaukee and his attempt to see her at the MTA?  Even then, weeks after the show ended for him and weeks after Josh/Andi's engagement...Nick on his video package was still stating his opinion that Josh was not right for Andi, that he was the "safe" choice, what she was familiar with, that he hoped Andi would read his letter and because of his words, hopefully change her mind and start over with him; suggesting that what she had with Josh could never compare to the amazingness she had with him if only she'd get over her fear.  Seriously?  If Andi was not the warm and fuzzy girl he hoped she'd be upon seeing him; I can't say I blame her....all things considered.  After what I sill consider to be, a very calculated choice by him to reveal the intimate details of the FS (it slipped, my arse, )...all it did is confirm to Andi as if she had any doubts that she made the right choice and that her heart lead her to the right man for her.  

Acrunch, I've been thinking along similar lines for Andi this morning. There's a blessing in disguise for her in all this. It's not likely now that Andi will ever have that moment when she looks back and wonders, "What if...". IMO, the door for any kind wondering in her heart regarding a relationship with Nick is firmly closed, locked and sealed shut. If/when she hits a rough patch with Josh, there's never going to be that other guy floating around in her brain/heart. So, there's that...just trying to make some lemonade.

Oh I said from the ATFR there was absolutely no love lost
between these two. No way they will ever be friends. EVER! Litta you stated it so well "blessing in disguise!"

soccermom333 wrote:

Litta123 wrote:

Acrunch wrote:I wonder if Andi was listening backstage to the pre-recorded package of Nick in Milwaukee and his attempt to see her at the MTA?  Even then, weeks after the show ended for him and weeks after Josh/Andi's engagement...Nick on his video package was still stating his opinion that Josh was not right for Andi, that he was the "safe" choice, what she was familiar with, that he hoped Andi would read his letter and because of his words, hopefully change her mind and start over with him; suggesting that what she had with Josh could never compare to the amazingness she had with him if only she'd get over her fear.  Seriously?  If Andi was not the warm and fuzzy girl he hoped she'd be upon seeing him; I can't say I blame her....all things considered.  After what I sill consider to be, a very calculated choice by him to reveal the intimate details of the FS (it slipped, my arse, )...all it did is confirm to Andi as if she had any doubts that she made the right choice and that her heart lead her to the right man for her.  

Acrunch, I've been thinking along similar lines for Andi this morning. There's a blessing in disguise for her in all this. It's not likely now that Andi will ever have that moment when she looks back and wonders, "What if...". IMO, the door for any kind wondering in her heart regarding a relationship with Nick is firmly closed, locked and sealed shut. If/when she hits a rough patch with Josh, there's never going to be that other guy floating around in her brain/heart. So, there's that...just trying to make some lemonade.

Oh I said from the ATFR there was absolutely no love lost
between these two.  No way they will ever be friends.  EVER!  Litta you stated it so well "blessing in disguise!"  

They already baby talked that sentiment to each other in one of their interviews this week, that Josh was "definitely the right choice, definitely." Also, seeing how he's handling it instead of going ballistic which most of us predicted (including me), should make her love him even more than she does now and appreciate who he is as a person. Both Nick and Josh have showed their true colors in this debacle imo and Andi is so much on the winning side with her choice, she won the lottery.

stuckinsc wrote:

Alanna wrote:

Ariela wrote:I do agree that maybe that's what set Nick off. I also agree that when the mention of did you love Nick was asked, if only Andi had said, "Yes, Nick, I loved you but I was in love with Josh." Then maybe he wouldn't have said that comment.

Ahhh, but on the ATFR Andi did say that she did feel all those things with Nick, and she turned to him and  said: How do you compare a GREATER LOVE blah, blah....Nick just didn't want to hear it. Basically, she said what YOU are saying but in different words. That's how I understood it.  HE HAD AN AGENDA. He was just waiting to plug in their "lovemaking" on national TV.

I was actually shocked when (the timing) he said it because he WASN'T listening at all to what Andi was saying. To me, it seemed that he just wanted to blurt out this lovemaking comment to make himself look good and get back at Andi.

You can all go back and play that part of the conversation and see what I'm talking about. I don't have any sympathy for Nick. I'm sure that Andi is sorry she ever laid eyes on Nick, who turned out to be less than a love you wish to cherish...

This is one thing I'm not sure about but I suspect you may be right only because he started in with tweeting about their fs, posting pics of them kissing against the tree and all the other sm stupidity all season long from him. A part of me thinks it's because Andi was being so cold and another agrees with you that Andi could have said anything and it was his agenda to talk about their fs escapades regardless.

One thing ITA with you about is that she must be so freaking sorry she ever laid eyes on him or at least didn't take Chris and Marcus to f3. I'd like to think that they're decent guys and wouldn't have talked about the fs regardless of what she did or didn't do with them. Even though Murrays/Dorfmans and of course Josh are so supportive of her, I cannot imagine how much she must wish she could redo that whole thing now. JMO.

It is my opinion and my opinion only that TPTB was telling him that she was uncertain with her decision and might pull a Jason.  I have no proof.  I think all the SM was a man who was attempting to court her.  Maybe not the nicest thing to Josh, but if he was told that she wasn't certain, I can understand.  What I saw of her breaking up with that left it open.  She didn't discuss with him that she just had more feelings for Josh.

I don't know what happened, but I put nothing past TPTB, they love to mess with peoples lives.  With Nick and the plane video, he was an extra big target.

The plane video has been discussed ad naseum, but I do want to ask something.  Nick thought he was having a private conversation with his parents about his heart break, and it was recorded against his will and violated his privacy.

Haven't most of us said much worse about an ex and the new person they are with than Nick did?  It wasn't something he intended for anyone but his parents to hear.

I can't understand everyone hating him for words he thought he said in private.  I have said much worse in private and public about my ex's and the new people they are with.

The video was not a conscious effort on Nick's part to be rude to Andi or Josh.  I guess for me, a little understanding on their part for the video, would have gone a long way for me.  I understand being upset about the AFTR a lot more than the video.

I have no problem with Nick venting. I get he was hurting, but to say this was a private conversation is ridiculous to me. He was sitting on a public plane with people all around him and he was being extremely loud. Enough for the person next to him to tell him to bring it down. Fact is he got caught and the $5M was hanging over his head, but he only has himself to blame.

GrahamGal wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

Alanna wrote:
This is one thing I'm not sure about but I suspect you may be right only because he started in with tweeting about their fs, posting pics of them kissing against the tree and all the other sm stupidity all season long from him. A part of me thinks it's because Andi was being so cold and another agrees with you that Andi could have said anything and it was his agenda to talk about their fs escapades regardless.

One thing ITA with you about is that she must be so freaking sorry she ever laid eyes on him or at least didn't take Chris and Marcus to f3. I'd like to think that they're decent guys and wouldn't have talked about the fs regardless of what she did or didn't do with them. Even though Murrays/Dorfmans and of course Josh are so supportive of her, I cannot imagine how much she must wish she could redo that whole thing now. JMO.

It is my opinion and my opinion only that TPTB was telling him that she was uncertain with her decision and might pull a Jason.  I have no proof.  I think all the SM was a man who was attempting to court her.  Maybe not the nicest thing to Josh, but if he was told that she wasn't certain, I can understand.  What I saw of her breaking up with that left it open.  She didn't discuss with him that she just had more feelings for Josh.

I don't know what happened, but I put nothing past TPTB, they love to mess with peoples lives.  With Nick and the plane video, he was an extra big target.

The plane video has been discussed ad naseum, but I do want to ask something.  Nick thought he was having a private conversation with his parents about his heart break, and it was recorded against his will and violated his privacy.

Haven't most of us said much worse about an ex and the new person they are with than Nick did?  It wasn't something he intended for anyone but his parents to hear.

I can't understand everyone hating him for words he thought he said in private.  I have said much worse in private and public about my ex's and the new people they are with.

The video was not a conscious effort on Nick's part to be rude to Andi or Josh.  I guess for me, a little understanding on their part for the video, would have gone a long way for me.  I understand being upset about the AFTR a lot more than the video.

I have no problem with Nick venting.  I get he was hurting, but to say this was a private conversation is ridiculous to me.  He was sitting on a public plane with people all around him and he was being extremely loud.  Enough for the person next to him to tell him to bring it down.  Fact is he got caught and the $5M was hanging over his head, but he only has himself to blame.

I hate the how technology and such has made our lives. It was a private conversation and I can tell you, since I work in a lab with three people who have very loud cell phone conversations all the time, that is normal. It drives me crazy, but it is common. I literally roll my eyes and get frustrated when my co-workers have a minimum of two loud annoying conversations and a maximum on the worst day of twelve loud conversations on their cell phones in my lab. I find that the noiser the environment that person is in the louder they tend to talk on their phones. I will say this was his first time in ten weeks having his cell phone back and being able to talk to his parents without someone right in his face. I guess I understand how others might not.

I hope all enjoy their time with Josh and Andi. Much like you yesterday, I think I might be done with these open threads for a while. Tilting at windmills tends to make me frustrated and science does that enough for me right now.

Enjoy all.

Alanna wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

Alanna wrote:
This is one thing I'm not sure about but I suspect you may be right only because he started in with tweeting about their fs, posting pics of them kissing against the tree and all the other sm stupidity all season long from him. A part of me thinks it's because Andi was being so cold and another agrees with you that Andi could have said anything and it was his agenda to talk about their fs escapades regardless.

One thing ITA with you about is that she must be so freaking sorry she ever laid eyes on him or at least didn't take Chris and Marcus to f3. I'd like to think that they're decent guys and wouldn't have talked about the fs regardless of what she did or didn't do with them. Even though Murrays/Dorfmans and of course Josh are so supportive of her, I cannot imagine how much she must wish she could redo that whole thing now. JMO.

It is my opinion and my opinion only that TPTB was telling him that she was uncertain with her decision and might pull a Jason.  I have no proof.  I think all the SM was a man who was attempting to court her.  Maybe not the nicest thing to Josh, but if he was told that she wasn't certain, I can understand.  What I saw of her breaking up with that left it open.  She didn't discuss with him that she just had more feelings for Josh.

I don't know what happened, but I put nothing past TPTB, they love to mess with peoples lives.  With Nick and the plane video, he was an extra big target.

The plane video has been discussed ad naseum, but I do want to ask something.  Nick thought he was having a private conversation with his parents about his heart break, and it was recorded against his will and violated his privacy.

Haven't most of us said much worse about an ex and the new person they are with than Nick did?  It wasn't something he intended for anyone but his parents to hear.

I can't understand everyone hating him for words he thought he said in private.  I have said much worse in private and public about my ex's and the new people they are with.

The video was not a conscious effort on Nick's part to be rude to Andi or Josh.  I guess for me, a little understanding on their part for the video, would have gone a long way for me.  I understand being upset about the AFTR a lot more than the video.

I don't know what Nick thought he was doing with his (imo ridiculous) sm all season, but he really wasn't listening to Andi because her sm was very obvious to me, and it was obvious that she was very happy and in love with the man she chose. If Nick posting all that stuff was his attempt to court her vs embarrass her and wreak havoc on Jodi, he really needed to pay better attention to her, watch the show, and pay attention to her behavior post-show. We were able to collect an entire thread of sm clues from her where she was very clear about what she wanted imo. If he didn't listen, I don't know how that can be helped. Andi certainly did everything she could in the sm world.

Right? I mean good God, the unspoiled side only started to look at twitter once the final two were set and what we found only solidified that Josh was F1 to us. Nick even said after watching it back he could see what they had. So out of the Bachelor Bubble why what would even give him the idea a Mesnick was possible. TPTB could, but once out of the Bubble you would think he was smart enough to "get a clue, she's over you". As for the $5M over his head, as I said he only has himself to blame. Still doesn't mean he had to go where he did knowing Andi is happily engaged to Josh. This all is of course only my opinion.

stuckinsc wrote:

GrahamGal wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

It is my opinion and my opinion only that TPTB was telling him that she was uncertain with her decision and might pull a Jason.  I have no proof.  I think all the SM was a man who was attempting to court her.  Maybe not the nicest thing to Josh, but if he was told that she wasn't certain, I can understand.  What I saw of her breaking up with that left it open.  She didn't discuss with him that she just had more feelings for Josh.

I don't know what happened, but I put nothing past TPTB, they love to mess with peoples lives.  With Nick and the plane video, he was an extra big target.

The plane video has been discussed ad naseum, but I do want to ask something.  Nick thought he was having a private conversation with his parents about his heart break, and it was recorded against his will and violated his privacy.

Haven't most of us said much worse about an ex and the new person they are with than Nick did?  It wasn't something he intended for anyone but his parents to hear.

I can't understand everyone hating him for words he thought he said in private.  I have said much worse in private and public about my ex's and the new people they are with.

The video was not a conscious effort on Nick's part to be rude to Andi or Josh.  I guess for me, a little understanding on their part for the video, would have gone a long way for me.  I understand being upset about the AFTR a lot more than the video.

I have no problem with Nick venting.  I get he was hurting, but to say this was a private conversation is ridiculous to me.  He was sitting on a public plane with people all around him and he was being extremely loud.  Enough for the person next to him to tell him to bring it down.  Fact is he got caught and the $5M was hanging over his head, but he only has himself to blame.

I hate the how technology and such has made our lives.  It was a private conversation and I can tell you, since I work in a lab with three people who have very loud cell phone conversations all the time, that is normal.  It drives me crazy, but it is common.  I literally roll my eyes and get frustrated when my co-workers have a minimum of two loud annoying conversations and a maximum on the worst day of twelve loud conversations on their cell phones in my lab.  I find that the noiser the environment that person is in the louder they tend to talk on their phones.  I will say this was his first time in ten weeks having his cell phone back and being able to talk to his parents without someone right in his face.  I guess I understand how others might not.  

I hope all enjoy their time with Josh and Andi.  Much like you yesterday, I think I might be done with these open threads for a while.  Tilting at windmills tends to make me frustrated and science does that enough for me right now.

Enjoy all.

   I'll join you since people will continue to believe what they want and that's ok. Through with arguing and speculation at this point.

stuckinsc wrote:

Ariela wrote:I do agree that maybe that's what set Nick off. I also agree that when the mention of did you love Nick was asked, if only Andi had said, "Yes, Nick, I loved you but I was in love with Josh." Then maybe he wouldn't have said that comment.

Ahhh, but on the ATFR Andi did say that she did feel all those things with Nick, and she turned to him and  said: How do you compare a GREATER LOVE blah, blah....Nick just didn't want to hear it. Basically, she said what YOU are saying but in different words. That's how I understood it.  HE HAD AN AGENDA. He was just waiting to plug in their "lovemaking" on national TV.

I was actually shocked when (the timing) he said it because he WASN'T listening at all to what Andi was saying. To me, it seemed that he just wanted to blurt out this lovemaking comment to make himself look good and get back at Andi.

You can all go back and play that part of the conversation and see what I'm talking about. I don't have any sympathy for Nick. I'm sure that Andi is sorry she ever laid eyes on Nick, who turned out to be less than a love you wish to cherish...

She said all those things after he asked her if she didn't love him why did she make love with him.  Before his heated and inappropriate question she said that she didn't love him and never told him she loved him.

Andi is opposite of me or how I hope I could be.  I would have tried to show sympathy to him and once he told everyone we had sex, I would have shut my mouth and gave nothing.  She bahaved opposite of that.

While I understand that people feel sorry for Andi and Josh's families and their viewing parties, Andi knew what she had done, at least if she had met with him before had, if it had come up, she would have been able to warn said families.

Neither Andi or Nick handled the AFTR very well.  All have had to do media afterwards, due to their contracts.  MF loves this it is keeping interest high for BiP.  Nick has expressed regret at how it came out and wished the couple well.  I am not following the couples media, so I only know what is posted here.  Hopefully after this week they can all move forward and they can leave each other alone.

Much like the Nick going to Mexico rumor, I think the bolded has been said so often that it has become truth when it is not.  Andi's direct quote before Nick dropped the bomb was, "At the end of the day, how can it compete with a greater relationship, a greater love."  The clip is here:

Nick Drops the Bomb

I think Andi blew it by not responding to Chris Harrison's question about loving Nick with, "My feelings were unclear until the end.  It was only retrospect that made me realize I loved Josh all along."  In short, I don't know why she wasn't consistent with her People magazine interview given days before the ATFR taping.  Perhaps she was as uncomfortable as Nick?  Or maybe it's as simple as her hearing that Nick had favorited a tweet that hoped Josh would be raped and she'd be punched in the face.    

I also think it's unfair to expect Andi to warn families about sex in the fantasy suites coming up as explicitly as it did.  There have been 28 seasons of this show, and it's never happened before now.  Actions have consequences, and Andi sleeping with Nick has consequences.  Her having to face that embarrassment is harsh, I think, but a realistic, foreseeable consequence of her action.  I think it's completely unrealistic to place the discomfort Andi and Josh's family and friends probably felt watching that scene on Andi.  That consequence is a direct result of Nick acting like an a-hole.  And his behavior in media afterwards only leads me to believe that he intended to poop in her punch bowl all along.

People will always construe things according to the impression they already have of a person.  If you have already decided you like someone, then slips or expressions of frustration are met with understanding:  "who wouldn't be like that in that situation?"  If you have already decide you do not like someone, the same are met with disgust and statements like "they showed their true colors!"    There is tremendous proof of that all around us every single day.

I do not agree that Nick's slip must have been or was calculated.  He was trembling and clearly searching for words in that discussion.  NO ONE is calculated in moments like that, and NO WAY he is some great actor able to pull something like that off.  

I DO agree that Nick has shown very clearly since the show ended why he was NOT the right person for Andi, and hopefully he can see that someday, too.  Andi was right when she noted at the initial breakup that they might end up in never ending circles of over-analyzing.  They each will do better with someone who pulls them out of their heads, instead of enforcing it.  In the bubble it may not have been a huge problem, and the tendency no doubt seemed to enhance their connection.  But out of the bubble, well, I think we've seen enough clues to realize how awful it could have been for them.  Josh pulls Andi out of her head and Josh is the right choice for her.

kdubs_ca wrote:
I think Andi blew it by not responding to Chris Harrison's question about loving Nick with, "My feelings were unclear until the end.  It was only retrospect that made me realize I loved Josh all along."  In short, I don't know why she wasn't consistent with her People magazine interview given days before the ATFR taping.  

Yes!  Why oh why couldn't this supposedly smart women keep to the line?  Her "I never loved you" was a knee jerk response and a huge mistake.  BOTH her and Nick put their foots in it in that conversation.  I'm not going to make either a sole villain or victim, and just note that it is proof of why the connection they had while in the bubble was never meant to exist in real life.  If Nick had gotten his wish about shopping together et al he would have eventually seen it, too.

Looking backwards, even if it wasn't what Nick needed to hear in the moment, Andi's description at the break up about how she could see them each over-analyzing and over-analyzing was pretty insightful.

Whether he did or he didn't, I think it's easier for people to believe that Nick planned to embarrass Andi on ATFR due to the way he came across on the show, as being so calculated, cocky and dismissive of every guy's feelings except his own.

If I had been Andi, the thing that would have insulted me the most as far as Nick's post filming behavior (excluding the blurt out) would be the note.  That was not an attempt at closure but a "pitch" for another chance with her and a "dig" at her personally for being too chicken to make the "right" choice.  Even if the producers were telling him that she was unhappy with Josh, that still wasn't his place.  Even his admirer Sharleen said that the decision for a "Mesnick" was 100% HER call, not his.

Bottom line is that both did/handled things poorly, and those things kept the ball rolling and prompted further poor decisions/behavior on the other's part.