Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion

luvlady345 wrote:Yes Lucas, someone has and that's what I was responding to.  

I actually think we're saying the same thing but you said it much more clearly than I did. I am well aware that posters have expressed an opinion that Josh has not forgiven and what I was trying to say is that while everyone is free to have any opinion, none of us knows what's truly in Josh's mind or heart to be able to say that he has or that he hasn't forgiven and moved on. I was sort of saying the same thing that Ash posted - that it's been a couple of weeks since Josh (or Andi) has said anything about Nick so he does seem to have moved on.

Relalou wrote:Interesting in the Access Hollywood interview today with Chris Harrison, he says that on ATFR after the Nick "bombshell" at commercial break, Andi turned to Chris and said "thank goodness I was 100% honest with Josh".  Honesty definitely turned out to be the best (and only) policy for Andi and Josh.

Indeed. I am one who believes that Andi had told Josh during filming - I suspect on their fantasy suite date, and when Josh commented during the MTP / LCD dates that "I know everything about her" that's what he was really referring to and it went completely over our heads at the time what he really meant by it. Now, I think we have a pretty good idea.

I am one who also believes that when Andi described a moment the morning after the FD when she and Josh were drinking some wine as "suddenly realizing she was talking to her best friend and someone she could tell anything to" and that it was that moment when she realized what she had been feeling for Josh all along was love, the discussion she was having with Josh was what happened in the FS with Nick. In that moment Josh showed love and understanding and acceptance that Andi is not perfect and hasn't always done perfect things but that he loves her anyway.

ETA - here's a link to the Access Hollywood interview Relalou mentioned:

Access Hollywood / Chris Harrison

Lucas15 wrote:

Relalou wrote:Interesting in the Access Hollywood interview today with Chris Harrison, he says that on ATFR after the Nick "bombshell" at commercial break, Andi turned to Chris and said "thank goodness I was 100% honest with Josh".  Honesty definitely turned out to be the best (and only) policy for Andi and Josh.

Indeed. I am one who believes that Andi had told Josh during filming - I suspect on their fantasy suite date, and when Josh commented during the MTP / LCD dates that "I know everything about her" that's what he was really referring to and it went completely over our heads at the time what he really meant by it. Now, I think we have a pretty good idea.

I am one who also believes that when Andi described a moment the morning after the FD when she and Josh were drinking some wine as "suddenly realizing she was talking to her best friend and someone she could tell anything to" and that it was that moment when she realized what she had been feeling for Josh all along was love, the discussion she was having with Josh was what happened in the FS with Nick. In that moment Josh showed love and understanding and acceptance that Andi is not perfect and hasn't always done perfect things but that he loves her anyway.

ETA - here's a link to the Access Hollywood interview Relalou mentioned:

Access Hollywood / Chris Harrison

Very well said, Lucas. esp. the bolded.

Also, with Andi, what you see is what you get. She was honest but still she had a "job" to do. When she was breaking up with Nick, he asked her if because of someone else, she looked down and quietly said " I'm sorry". I think she handled it with kindness because obviously, she did care for Nick, but she wasn't in love with him. IMO

Because of the scandal, Andi now knows that Josh loves her unconditionally. It's the best kind of love.

eliza3 wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:I just find it interesting that we're all here judging people that we don't know, but yet it's okay. Josh sends out a tweet that he probably shouldn't have and it didn't have any sort of malice or hate towards anyone, but yet it's not okay because he describes and portrays himself as a man of God. I have trouble understanding that. I'm Catholic and my faith has been a large part of my life since I was a child, but I sure hope God doesn't hate me for leaving comments here that aren't always in a positive light.

People aren't perfect. No one is. I'm pretty sure it's okay to make some small errors whether it be on Twitter or here on this board, when in reality, they have no large effect on anyone.  

There is as much judgement for Josh as there was for Nick.  Just different people judging.

One difference to me, when you proclaim your faith to a large audience via twitter, etc, then you set yourself up for some questioning you.  In addition, when he is so openly not forgiving Nick, it is a pattern of less than Christian behavior.

To me forgiveness is a process, like so many other things in life.   Just because he has not YET forgiven him doesn't mean he isn't working on forgiving him.   In this world of instant gratification I sometimes want the emotions of those around me to be instant but realize that we are complicated beings and emotions and feelings can take time.

Totally agree. For many years, I led forgiveness groups for individuals who had been traumatized (typically either through childhood sexual abuse or spousal abuse). The framework with which I worked was that forgiveness (not to be confused with reconciliation) was a process consisting of various stages (analogous to the grieving process, albeit more linear that the grieving process often is). Stages are: denial, self-blame, victimization, indignation, integration, and finally forgiveness. So, as you alluded to, we don't think ourselves or even pray ourselves to forgiveness - we feel our way through it.

docnash14 wrote:

eliza3 wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

There is as much judgement for Josh as there was for Nick.  Just different people judging.

One difference to me, when you proclaim your faith to a large audience via twitter, etc, then you set yourself up for some questioning you.  In addition, when he is so openly not forgiving Nick, it is a pattern of less than Christian behavior.

To me forgiveness is a process, like so many other things in life.   Just because he has not YET forgiven him doesn't mean he isn't working on forgiving him.   In this world of instant gratification I sometimes want the emotions of those around me to be instant but realize that we are complicated beings and emotions and feelings can take time.

Totally agree. For many years, I led forgiveness groups for individuals who had been traumatized (typically either through childhood sexual abuse or spousal abuse).  The framework with which I worked was that forgiveness (not to be confused with reconciliation) was a process consisting of various stages (analogous to the grieving process, albeit more linear that the grieving process often is).  Stages are:  denial, self-blame, victimization, indignation, integration, and finally forgiveness.  So, as you alluded to, we don't think ourselves or even pray ourselves to forgiveness - we feel our way through it.

Doc do you find this is the same for all forgiveness? I am not a professional like you are, but to me it would seem there are differing levels of things that require forgiveness. Large things I can see being similar to what you have written, but something smaller and less significant, is this still the case?

Man, am I the only one who thinks these two don't even know or remember who or what the N-word even refers to anymore, unless asked? They remind me of those couples that once they're together, it's like previous exes never even existed because it's weird that at one point in life they weren't together. I doubt they're holding on to any grudges or need to offer any forgiveness because her f2 is so irrelevant in their life. Jmo.

Alanna wrote:Man, am I the only one who thinks these two don't even know or remember who or what the N-word even refers to anymore, unless asked? They remind me of those couples that once they're together, it's like previous exes never even existed because it's weird that at one point in life they weren't together. I doubt they're holding on to any grudges or need to offer any forgiveness because her f2 is so irrelevant in their life. Jmo.

stuckinsc wrote:

docnash14 wrote:

eliza3 wrote:

To me forgiveness is a process, like so many other things in life.   Just because he has not YET forgiven him doesn't mean he isn't working on forgiving him.   In this world of instant gratification I sometimes want the emotions of those around me to be instant but realize that we are complicated beings and emotions and feelings can take time.

Totally agree. For many years, I led forgiveness groups for individuals who had been traumatized (typically either through childhood sexual abuse or spousal abuse).  The framework with which I worked was that forgiveness (not to be confused with reconciliation) was a process consisting of various stages (analogous to the grieving process, albeit more linear that the grieving process often is).  Stages are:  denial, self-blame, victimization, indignation, integration, and finally forgiveness.  So, as you alluded to, we don't think ourselves or even pray ourselves to forgiveness - we feel our way through it.

Doc do you find this is the same for all forgiveness?  I am not a professional like you are, but to me it would seem there are differing levels of things that require forgiveness.  Large things I can see being similar to what you have written, but something smaller and less significant, is this still the case?

Yes, I would say we go through all of these stages of feelings whenever there has been a transgression against us, although for something less significant (which, of course, is subjective) we typically will progress through the stages much more quickly. Making generalizations here but typically the person who has been harmed will engage in self-blame in order to stiff arm feelings of powerlessness; once the person is able to accept this powerlessness, s/he is able to advance to the stage where s/he becomes willing to face that there was a transgression/victimization. Hopefully, the person doesn't get stuck there and is able to move into the indignation stage where s/he is able to express anger about the injustice of that victimization (function of anger is that it allows us to affirm/validate ourselves by declaring that we did not deserve that injustice). In the state of integration, we become aware of the grace and/or growth that we have attained through what has happened.

Alanna wrote:Man, am I the only one who thinks these two don't even know or remember who or what the N-word even refers to anymore, unless asked? They remind me of those couples that once they're together, it's like previous exes never even existed because it's weird that at one point in life they weren't together. I doubt they're holding on to any grudges or need to offer any forgiveness because her f2 is so irrelevant in their life. Jmo.

Won't disagree, although, in my opinion, the forgiveness process is usually a component of our own healing process and has more to do with our relationship with ourselves rather than with the person who has wronged us. So we can reach forgiveness without addressing that person.

Alanna wrote:Man, am I the only one who thinks these two don't even know or remember who or what the N-word even refers to anymore, unless asked? They remind me of those couples that once they're together, it's like previous exes never even existed because it's weird that at one point in life they weren't together. I doubt they're holding on to any grudges or need to offer any forgiveness because her f2 is so irrelevant in their life. Jmo.

Thank you Alanna! Voice of reason. ;) The recent pictures of them tonight tell the story.

docnash14 wrote:

Alanna wrote:Man, am I the only one who thinks these two don't even know or remember who or what the N-word even refers to anymore, unless asked? They remind me of those couples that once they're together, it's like previous exes never even existed because it's weird that at one point in life they weren't together. I doubt they're holding on to any grudges or need to offer any forgiveness because her f2 is so irrelevant in their life. Jmo.

Won't disagree, although, in my opinion, the forgiveness process is usually a component of our own healing process and has more to do with our relationship with ourselves rather than with the person who has wronged us.  So we can reach forgiveness without addressing that person.

I would never expect Andi or Josh to make a public announcement of forgiveness to Nick, that is ridiculous IMO. Nor do I think they would formally forgive Nick in person, I just don't see that happening, nor would I ever expect that.

To the bolded, couldn't agree more, I think the sooner they "forgive" Nick internally the sooner they will actually move on and put that behind them. Without forgiveness a person, IMO, will continue to harbour internal resentment towards that person and things related to them, which can be destructive to your other relationships. They may have already reached this point, I am not them so I can't judge whether they have or not forgiven him.

Pictures are just snapshots of "happiness" that can be slight glimpses in life, in between all the other, sometimes not so happy moments, the moments that make a real relationship or life are more frequently than not captured.

Time will tell for these two, as it has with any other bachelor/ette couple, IMHO.

Alanna wrote:Man, am I the only one who thinks these two don't even know or remember who or what the N-word even refers to anymore, unless asked? They remind me of those couples that once they're together, it's like previous exes never even existed because it's weird that at one point in life they weren't together. I doubt they're holding on to any grudges or need to offer any forgiveness because her f2 is so irrelevant in their life. Jmo.

Except Nick was not an ex.  He was a wham- bham- thank- you- sir for both of them and the person that actually brought them together. I mean their mutual hate for him bonded them,  more than their mutual arrogance and as*holeness if that's a word.

For the record, yes I think youre the only one who thinks Nick is no longer on their minds.  Josh propably thinks of him everytime he sleeps with her.. he will always be the biggest elephant in the bedroom.   I mean let's be real here Alanna, will you ever forget the woman your husband has slept with days before your engagement? Multiply that 100x cause everybody knows about it, and cant stop talking about it including messageboards like this. So no. Nick's spirit will always be there to torture them in and out of the bedroom.



And I wonder if Andi told Josh that she slept with Nick before Fantasy Suite Date, I would imagine she played it safe and told him after they were engaged. That would be really awkward to tell Josh ' Hey btw I just banged Nick 3 days ago.'

Please Louise, she was probably warned by TBTP that Nick is threatening to expose her and that's why Andi told Josh before ATFR. The woman is so cunning that she knows to play her cards right.