Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion

sdmom wrote:

Wonderful post!!!  
Love your eloquent list.
I was just thinking what is a STRONG woman? I think it's different from a woman with strong personality. I think a strong woman can be vulnerable, will make mistakes from time to time, but is brave enough to admit, and will grow from them. I think of my own mom: many people may think she's a "doormat" to my dad's strong personality, because she's submissive to him and hardly argued with him. However, in her fight against cancer, she's never shed a tear and even comforted us "it's going to be OK".  She's shown me the courage of never giving up and the love for her family when facing  adversity. To me, that's a strong woman.
I didn't watch Andi from JPG's season, but CMIIW, didn't she make fun of his accent?? To me, that's not kind or compassionate.

I agree, but we also should allow for women to make mistakes along the way. But yes, that would be an example of inappropriate or even juvenile behavior because it can be construed as bullying. But, again, it's up for debate.

Acrunch wrote:

atem wrote:

vivi2 wrote:
PS. Regardless of my opinion, if Andi is so "bad", why more than one guy fell in love with her?  Were they lying or just love in the bubble hence not real love?

Hello, Marcus fell in love with another girl in a few days after meeting her on another tv show. Chris S is possibly the next Bachelor and Cody isn't still pining for her and others have moved on too.

I am wondering if people get amnesia, because the last time I looked all the Bachelorette's have guys claiming they are in love.

Ahhh, but you are forgetting the compassionate and fabulousness that is Nick also fell "in love" with her.  He was broken up with and still, even three months later, even knowing she was engaged to Josh was still hoping his letter would cause Andi to have an epiphany, dump Josh and give her relationship with Nick another chance.

I dunno; I love Andi.  I love her independently and I love her with Josh.  I love what I've seen (been allowed to see) of her.  I do think she's smart, feisty, sweet, loving, compassionate and  and strong.  I love that she stands up for herself.  I didn't see anything wrong with her demeanor on AFTR with Nick.  I thought Nick gave her plenty of reasons post show to be guarded and even a little ticked off and closed off.  For all this commentary about Andi' lack of compassion; I didn't particular see any of this same compassion during the season or after coming from him either.  

Great Post!!    

Lucas15 wrote:

Maggenzm wrote:I am glad she doesn't care what people think about her. she is happy with her man, got family and friends that love her, and that's all that matters really.

I think Andi has learned this timeless lesson:

Abe Lincoln wrote:You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

luvlady345 wrote:I guess the reason why I am drawn to Andi because out of all the ETTES I identify most with her I am soft and warm when I need to be and take no prisoner when the need arises.....

If you want to see the warm and soft side of Andi just re-watch the breakup scene with Chris S (which I did yesterday). That side of Andi combined with Chris' gentle and nurturing nature made for some of the best TV I've ever seen out of this show - and it was a break-up scene.

Great post Lucas. She cried again when letting Cody go, and again on her PI on Dylan story. That 's Andi's heart.

sdmom wrote:

Catdwoman50 wrote:Hope I'm not late to the party but I would like to add my 2 cents to this healthy discussion.

I believe that the conversation started by some of us thinking (saying it out loud) that Andi is not our ideal of a strong woman, while others think she is.  I will take Andi's age, experience, and the situation (whether her actions are highly produced or not) as factors in my observation and opinion of her.  So to be fair my opinion of Andi is based on traits and behavior I observed before, during, and after the show.  I don't know her personally so my opinion is based on how most of us probably know her - as a public figure.  I will also acknowledge that my view of Andi and that of a strong woman are influenced by my experiences in life and my beliefs.  My view and opinion is not colored by my bias towards Nick because I like Josh for Andi.  I think that Josh balances her out.  With that said, this is what I think a strong woman should be and the gravitas to hold that position and for others to be able to emulate:

• A strong woman will have a strong personality to hold on to her convictions and beliefs whether that is initially wrong or right.  
  
• A strong woman is self-aware and have the emotional intelligence to handle conflicts with the right decorum, whether emotions need to be exhibited or not.
  
• A strong woman will listen to others opinions and will be gracious in identifying her mistakes and admit to them (publicly or privately).
  
• A strong woman will be able to effectively resolve conflicts resulting in highly satisfied parties.
  
• In addition, a strong woman will also bring into her decision-making, leadership abilities, and social interactions the special traits that is inherent in most females - nurture, compassion, and empathy.  
  
• A strong woman is influential because she exhibits the charisma to balance the male and female traits that makes her a pillar of strength.
  

To be fair, I don't think I knew this at 28.  My experiences in life such as: leadership in my line of work, high-success in my career, being a mentor, being a mother, being a wife (or a partner), travels and awareness of other cultures, having gone through personal, professional, and medical strifes - have given me the insight on what it takes to be a strong woman. My examples include Mother Theresa, Margaret Thatcher, even the current image of Angelina Jolie.  That does not mean that my view of a strong woman is right, but that is what I see is right at the moment.  I believe that Andi needs a little more experience to become a strong woman in my lens, most likely it will come with age and wider experience.  Would I want my teenager to emulate her actions?  Some but not all, I will give Andi the benefit of the doubt that the compassion and empathy are present traits (I believe these are not learned) but she just wasn't able to show them on TV during conflict.  Maybe these traits to her are still signs of weakness and when she realizes that these complete her as a human being would be when she can be idealized as a strong one. Hopefully, her relationship with Josh, her experience with the bachelorette, and having a family soon will bring out - compassion, openness, and empathy - more in her public persona.

Wonderful post!!!  
Love your eloquent list.
I was just thinking what is a STRONG woman? I think it's different from a woman with strong personality. I think a strong woman can be vulnerable, will make mistakes from time to time, but is brave enough to admit, and will grow from them. I think of my own mom: many people may think she's a "doormat" to my dad's strong personality, because she's submissive to him and hardly argued with him. However, in her fight against cancer, she's never shed a tear and even comforted us "it's going to be OK".  She's shown me the courage of never giving up and the love for her family when facing  adversity. To me, that's a strong woman.
I didn't watch Andi from JPG's season, but CMIIW, didn't she make fun of his accent?? To me, that's not kind or compassionate.

Thank you for these two posts, they stated things much better than I did. The Andi I have seen is not my ideal of a strong woman. I agree she has a strong personality, but true strength to me comes from grace and the ability to see other opinions and discuss them without hostility. No one is ever perfect and we all make mistakes.

I used to be much more aggressive, I thought I had to be to be strong. It took great mentors and seeing fellow women to learn the difference between aggression and assertion. I think Andi is young, so I don't think she is stuck but I don't celebrate her as strong or an ideal either. In truth my favorite bachelorette and the only one I would tell any young girl to follow as an example is Ashley. That is my opinion.

I think the true strength of character comes out when people or stressed or pressed or pushed. Those are the times to me that Andi behaves the worst. She did it with JPG, she did it with Eric and she did it with Nick. Josh was the only guy that instead of being a b**** with when he didn't agree with her, she tried to listen. I hope Josh will continue to help her. As for Andi and compassion or anything else. I can only go by what she has shown me. I see her favoring Marcus tweet criticizing Nick, but when Marcus tweeted a couple of days later to Nick condolences for his uncles death, Andi doesn't favor that. I am sorry, but to me if you make the effort to favor something negative about him, then have the grace to feel bad when something bad happens.

I work with a lot of very intelligent women in their 20s. Some rich, some poor, all different races. Being spoiled is fine, but not seeming to have compassion for others isn't. I just don't like the Andi I see, and I hope that changes. As for MM and Stephanie, in the time that Aaron was at UGA, they both did community service things with the school and MM herself organized that finale viewing party for charity. She didn't have to make it for charity, she chose to. So yes, I see more compassion from the Murray women then Andi.

You don't have to be a pushover to be compassionate. I have been told I have a lot of compassion, but I am also very strong. My medical students joke that I am even a little scary.

You don't have to be weak to be compassionate. Mother Theresa was a wonderfully strong and compassionate woman.

I hate the idea that to be strong you have to be a b****. So no, I don't celebrate Andi. I am open to hoping she will change, but for now I see her as the same self involved bratty diva (her words) that she is. When she decides to work again or use all her free time to do something for someone besides herself, I might start to be impressed. As long as she stays MeAndI, then nope not impressed.

Again, I have great hope that being around Josh and his family will help with that.

Maggenzm wrote:

Lucas15 wrote:

Maggenzm wrote:I am glad she doesn't care what people think about her. she is happy with her man, got family and friends that love her, and that's all that matters really.

I think Andi has learned this timeless lesson:

Abe Lincoln wrote:You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

luvlady345 wrote:I guess the reason why I am drawn to Andi because out of all the ETTES I identify most with her I am soft and warm when I need to be and take no prisoner when the need arises.....

If you want to see the warm and soft side of Andi just re-watch the breakup scene with Chris S (which I did yesterday). That side of Andi combined with Chris' gentle and nurturing nature made for some of the best TV I've ever seen out of this show - and it was a break-up scene.

Great post Lucas. She cried again when letting Cody go, and again on her PI on Dylan story. That 's Andi's heart.

As someone who has lost a sibling to suicide from overdose, I actually found her response to Dylan's story one of the least compassionate responses to something like that I have ever seen. She ranks above the person who told me that my sister was going to hell, but that might be it. A few tears isn't compassion. Compassion is actually trying to help the other person or understand them.

Watching her with Dylan having gone through something like that myself actually contributed to my dislike of Andi even more.

Seems we all bring our own perspective and life experiences to the debate - starting with how each of us defines strength in a woman and going from there. Certainly leads to such a diversity of opinion and that is probably the best place to leave it!

In the meantime, Josh and Andi get to enjoy their engagement and seem to be forming a good team. I'm looking forward to seeing this couple move towards marriage and the family that they both so clearly desire.

I hope Andi stays just the way she is, she has family, friends and Josh seems her life is just fine w/o a few detractors hoping she will change, for what? So that some nameless face can like them, when we don't even know the real person. I dunno, I dislike Nick I personally don't care if he change or not I don't have to live with Nick or be around him...

luvlady345 wrote:I hope Andi stays just the way she is, she has family, friends and Josh seems her life  is just fine w/o a few detractors hoping she will change, for what? So that some nameless face can like them, when we don't even know the real person. I dunno, I dislike Nick I personally don't care if he change or not I don't have  to live with Nick or be around him...

I think just by having Josh, she's already different because he has brought out her affectionate, girly side and makes her feel happy and loved. I mean, one of our first sm clues was all the #blessed-s after she returned home. That is new! I attribute a lot of her b!tchiness to snark, which I think is a part of her thanks to her dad who has the same type of humor, and the other part to being really hurt by men before. That second part I think is now all soothed and healed so she's different- infinitely happier, calmer and nicer IMO. From what we have seen, Josh is so kind and loving to her (and everyone) and I think it's bringing out her best qualities too.

Catdwoman50 wrote:

sdmom wrote:

Wonderful post!!!  
Love your eloquent list.
I was just thinking what is a STRONG woman? I think it's different from a woman with strong personality. I think a strong woman can be vulnerable, will make mistakes from time to time, but is brave enough to admit, and will grow from them. I think of my own mom: many people may think she's a "doormat" to my dad's strong personality, because she's submissive to him and hardly argued with him. However, in her fight against cancer, she's never shed a tear and even comforted us "it's going to be OK".  She's shown me the courage of never giving up and the love for her family when facing  adversity. To me, that's a strong woman.
I didn't watch Andi from JPG's season, but CMIIW, didn't she make fun of his accent?? To me, that's not kind or compassionate.

I agree, but we also should allow for women to make mistakes along the way.  But yes, that would be an example of inappropriate or even juvenile behavior because it can be construed as bullying.  But, again, it's up for debate.

If its a "bachelor" who made fun of a latina contestant's accent  he will be hated on for life.   Also,  if its a "Bachelor" who treated an F2 like she has a disease after bedding her in  the fantasy suite knowing that he will not choose her, women will be up in arms against him.  Andi Dorfman got away with a lot.  

I hope as  women we would never equate being strong to being 'condescending' and a 'jerk'.   (Glad Erick stood up to her and call her out on being inauthentic)

* Josh is obviously henpecked.   He is used being in the background while a more 'important' sibling takes all the glory.  He is perfect for Meandi.

Yeah that ^.   

, smh I love it, so much shade being thrown on Andi and now henpecked Josh just because she didn't choose gremlin Nick and wasn't soft/warm enough for his bruised ego.

Im not even a fan of Nick.  Just pointing out Andi's hypocrisy and being an all around jerk.

People hate on Nick for being a tattle tale.  Well Andi was the original  tattle tale for telling everyone Clare slept with Juan Pablo.  It's not even her business.

People are hating on that guy for calling Marquel "blackie"   and yet there's Andi who can get away with "Eeeez Okay"  "Eeez Okay".... if Juan Pablo is Chinese, she would probably go "ching chong ching"  and its still gonna be okay for her fans.

I just want to know if any of you will be okay,  if the Bachelor  admits to sleeping with another woman in one of those very classy fantasy suites, other than the intended F1?   If Yawn slept with Lindsay and Lindsay asked Yawn "If you didn't love me why did you make you love to me??"   Lindsay will not be called a GREMLIN, she will be  women's poster child for feminism.  

Women say they believe in equality but what they want really is to have their cake and eat it too.