Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion

I think this was the only final couple ever to not get the chance to watch a replay of their proposal. You think they'd want to push the romance. No gift either. Is that gone these days?

luvlady345 wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:I guess, I would like to know here, why do you think TPTB edited Josh and Andi they way they did?  Josh is a great guy and very smart, but he was edited as the dumb jock.  Andi was edited as having a physical connection with him, but he was just like all her other cheating jock exes.

I am not saying either are true. But edit wise, since I didn't really have Josh or Nick fan glasses on, as I liked them both.  I saw a nicer, gentler Andi with Nick and an Andi who spent most of her time putting Josh through the ringer for something he never ever did.

I don't believe that is all there was to show of Josh and Andi, so why did TPTB do this?

I personally think they wanted either Josh or Eric as the next lead.  My opinion was Andi was told to keep both to F6 if not HTDs, not a problem with Josh at all, but not so easy with Eric.  I think they were mad at her for over reacting during the conversation with Eric and making it necessary for him to leave and at the same time growing closer and closer to picking Josh, so they were going to be left without either of the leads they wanted.

Anyway this is my theory and I am just interested what others think.

I think it's just the edit that TPTB use just take a look at all the other ETTE when the lead falls for the hot guy and the one they have the most chemistry with remember Roberto and Ian both were the chemistry guys the edit did everything in their power to make them look not so desirable to the general public, remember?  With the ETTE from what I have observed one of the F2 gets the chemistry edit, too good too be true edit or will not commit edit that's a telltale sign that he is F1.....

Wait, what did they do to make Roberto seem not so desirable to the general public? I always thought he got a good edit; it was just that everyone paled in comparison to Chris L.

Des and chris did not get a gift. Chris gave one to Des, a framed poem. Did Juan and Nikki? Don't think so. I bet there are more...

They haven't given the final couple a gift for several seasons. I think JP & Ashley might have been the last ones to get one. SeanCat didn't get one, unless you count the all-expense paid wedding, then yeah they got a gift.

chasingpavements wrote:

luvlady345 wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:I guess, I would like to know here, why do you think TPTB edited Josh and Andi they way they did?  Josh is a great guy and very smart, but he was edited as the dumb jock.  Andi was edited as having a physical connection with him, but he was just like all her other cheating jock exes.

I am not saying either are true. But edit wise, since I didn't really have Josh or Nick fan glasses on, as I liked them both.  I saw a nicer, gentler Andi with Nick and an Andi who spent most of her time putting Josh through the ringer for something he never ever did.

I don't believe that is all there was to show of Josh and Andi, so why did TPTB do this?

I personally think they wanted either Josh or Eric as the next lead.  My opinion was Andi was told to keep both to F6 if not HTDs, not a problem with Josh at all, but not so easy with Eric.  I think they were mad at her for over reacting during the conversation with Eric and making it necessary for him to leave and at the same time growing closer and closer to picking Josh, so they were going to be left without either of the leads they wanted.

Anyway this is my theory and I am just interested what others think.

I think it's just the edit that TPTB use just take a look at all the other ETTE when the lead falls for the hot guy and the one they have the most chemistry with remember Roberto and Ian both were the chemistry guys the edit did everything in their power to make them look not so desirable to the general public, remember?  With the ETTE from what I have observed one of the F2 gets the chemistry edit, too good too be true edit or will not commit edit that's a telltale sign that he is F1.....

Wait, what did they do to make Roberto seem not so desirable to the general public? I always thought he got a good edit; it was just that everyone paled in comparison to Chris L.

Roberto, was that too good to be true/hot guy an in Ali's mind no way he could be in love with her... The same with Josh, too good to be true/hot guy/player and some viewers will see start to question these guys as the true F1 that's why Chris Lambert and Nick had some viewers adamant that they were F1...

They can't always use the same edit pattern because it depends on the individual personalities/backgrounds and the dynamics of the lead's relationships with each of the F2, which are all unique and differ from season to season.  Usually what they try to do, IMO, is set up a dichotomy/contrast between whoever the F2 people are, some seasons it works better than others.  They also never know for sure how an audience will react to a certain contestant, and will often tweak the edit a bit once they get that input.

That said, there definitely were some similarities between Roberto and Josh, as far as edit.  Roberto didn't get a bad edit IMO, but then neither did Josh, IMO.  The only thing was that in both cases, they were pretty one dimensional, and the whole "issue" with the lead was that they were "too good to be true".  But because Andi also had cheating/trust issues which were a highlighted theme, Josh suffered by association as this "allegation" got dumped on him despite any lack of evidence.  They didn't delve into that angle at all with Ali/Roberto.  Another big difference between the two seasons which changed the overall dynamic was the rabid popularity of Chris L (In Andi's season the guy who got the almost inexplicable rabid fan reaction was eliminated at F11), which just made Roberto look less interesting by comparison.  And to take the parallel one step further, the purported "villain" in Andi's season stayed until F2 while in Ali's season, he left at F3.

But all those differences resulted in the "parallel" between the two seasons being far from an "exact" duplicate.

ironcat wrote:They can't always use the same edit pattern because it depends on the individual personalities/backgrounds and the dynamics of the lead's relationships with each of the F2, which are all unique and differ from season to season.  Usually what they try to do, IMO, is set up a dichotomy/contrast between whoever the F2 people are, some seasons it works better than others.  They also never know for sure how an audience will react to a certain contestant, and will often tweak the edit a bit once they get that input.

That said, there definitely were some similarities between Roberto and Josh, as far as edit.  Roberto didn't get a bad edit IMO, but then neither did Josh, IMO.  The only thing was that in both cases, they were pretty one dimensional, and the whole "issue" with the lead was that they were "too good to be true".  But because Andi also had cheating/trust issues which were a highlighted theme, Josh suffered by association as this "allegation" got dumped on him despite any lack of evidence.  They didn't delve into that angle at all with Ali/Roberto.  Another big difference between the two seasons which changed the overall dynamic was the rabid popularity of Chris L (In Andi's season the guy who got the almost inexplicable rabid fan reaction was eliminated at F11), which just made Roberto look less interesting by comparison.  And to take the parallel one step further, the purported "villain" in Andi's season stayed until F2 while in Ali's season, he left at F3.

But all those differences resulted in the "parallel" between the two seasons being far from an "exact" duplicate.

Well also Andi's f1 was the real f1, Ali's f1 was f3 imo so that created another difference in how it was all shown. The main conflict was with Frank, would he stay, be there for her, etc., OTOH, here, the main conflict was with Josh because he was the f1 the entire time.

Alanna wrote:

ironcat wrote:They can't always use the same edit pattern because it depends on the individual personalities/backgrounds and the dynamics of the lead's relationships with each of the F2, which are all unique and differ from season to season.  Usually what they try to do, IMO, is set up a dichotomy/contrast between whoever the F2 people are, some seasons it works better than others.  They also never know for sure how an audience will react to a certain contestant, and will often tweak the edit a bit once they get that input.

That said, there definitely were some similarities between Roberto and Josh, as far as edit.  Roberto didn't get a bad edit IMO, but then neither did Josh, IMO.  The only thing was that in both cases, they were pretty one dimensional, and the whole "issue" with the lead was that they were "too good to be true".  But because Andi also had cheating/trust issues which were a highlighted theme, Josh suffered by association as this "allegation" got dumped on him despite any lack of evidence.  They didn't delve into that angle at all with Ali/Roberto.  Another big difference between the two seasons which changed the overall dynamic was the rabid popularity of Chris L (In Andi's season the guy who got the almost inexplicable rabid fan reaction was eliminated at F11), which just made Roberto look less interesting by comparison.  And to take the parallel one step further, the purported "villain" in Andi's season stayed until F2 while in Ali's season, he left at F3.

But all those differences resulted in the "parallel" between the two seasons being far from an "exact" duplicate.

Well also Andi's f1 was the real f1, Ali's f1 was f3 imo so that created another difference in how it was all shown. The main conflict was with Frank, would he stay, be there for her, etc., OTOH, here, the main conflict was with Josh because he was the f1 the entire time.

And IF Ali would have ended up picking Frank, I suspect that the edit of each of her F3 would have been tweaked somewhat. The producers, having the advantage of knowing the outcome before they craft the edit, always look to create an interesting and cohesive story/conflict that logically develops/unravels over the course of the season.

Getting back to this season, I think people's opinion of Josh's (or anybody's) edit is always influenced/biased by whether they like or are rooting for that person or someone else. "We all see what we want to see"- truer words were never spoken.  

I know for me, I really like Josh and was a big fan before the season. Before the episode, I was actually all for Josh and Andi. It took watching her interact with him for me to jump off that train. So it wasn't a predisposition again Josh that colored my opinion, it was the actions of Andi (albeit the edited actions of Andi) that turned me off for the couple. Alanna and I spent one episode talking about how cranky she was being to him. I think a lot of Jodi fans found it charming, it just made me feel like Josh deserved much better. I no longer feel that way, Josh is happy with Andi, and I wish the best for them. I am just not interested enough to actively follow or post in the fan thread.

I do not think Andi would have kept Eric until F4 or F6 on her own. While they had a great first date and Eric was in my opinion a total package, she seemed to grow less comfortable with him. Episode three when she interrupted her time with Eric to read Nick's note with the flowers. I compare this to how Emily or was it Ashley treated the letter from the guy who interrupted time with someone else to hand it to her. The lead that time said thank you, but tried to delay the interruption until the other person forced the issue. Andi was delivered flowers and could not wait to read the card/letter. It was rude to Eric to do so. It would not have hurt Andi at all to wait until after her time with Eric, but she either was too excited to wait or didn't care enough for Eric to wait. I do think if all things were equal, Andi would probably have let Eric go that week. Her interactions with him in week 4 showed that her personal interest in him was waning, not as a human, but as a possible boyfriend/fiance. I don't think if allowed to send home the guys she knew didn't have a chance as her F1, that Eric would have make it past episode 3. She didn't have that choice and I think that is what Eric sensed. I don't blame her, as I don't think Andi is all that good of an actress, and the stress of leading on a man who was intelligent, but wasn't necessarily buying into the bubble was probably hard for her.

Anyway, it is just my opinion, but I don't TPTB did Andi or Josh any favors with the edit. I would have liked to see more of the fun, smart and silly Josh that we weren't allowed to see. I also know their was more to the love story between them, but honestly to me, I only started to see glimpses of it in Brussels when she let her ADA mask slip for a while, I did see it from HTDs on, but even then it was peppered with her doubt and lack of trust. I bet a lot of leads feel this, but with Andi they chose to emphasize it much more than in the past, except for maybe Ian. But then as much as I loved Ian, I didn't think Ian was ready for marriage. A longterm girlfriend, yes, but marriage? Nope. Not a knock on Ian at all.

Alanna wrote:

ironcat wrote:They can't always use the same edit pattern because it depends on the individual personalities/backgrounds and the dynamics of the lead's relationships with each of the F2, which are all unique and differ from season to season.  Usually what they try to do, IMO, is set up a dichotomy/contrast between whoever the F2 people are, some seasons it works better than others.  They also never know for sure how an audience will react to a certain contestant, and will often tweak the edit a bit once they get that input.

That said, there definitely were some similarities between Roberto and Josh, as far as edit.  Roberto didn't get a bad edit IMO, but then neither did Josh, IMO.  The only thing was that in both cases, they were pretty one dimensional, and the whole "issue" with the lead was that they were "too good to be true".  But because Andi also had cheating/trust issues which were a highlighted theme, Josh suffered by association as this "allegation" got dumped on him despite any lack of evidence.  They didn't delve into that angle at all with Ali/Roberto.  Another big difference between the two seasons which changed the overall dynamic was the rabid popularity of Chris L (In Andi's season the guy who got the almost inexplicable rabid fan reaction was eliminated at F11), which just made Roberto look less interesting by comparison.  And to take the parallel one step further, the purported "villain" in Andi's season stayed until F2 while in Ali's season, he left at F3.

But all those differences resulted in the "parallel" between the two seasons being far from an "exact" duplicate.

Well also Andi's f1 was the real f1, Ali's f1 was f3 imo so that created another difference in how it was all shown. The main conflict was with Frank, would he stay, be there for her, etc., OTOH, here, the main conflict was with Josh because he was the f1 the entire time.

Yes I agree, Josh was always andi's FINAL 1. IMO. She only fell in love with Josh and no one else. She told Nick and all of America at the ATFR when chris H. asked her the question. Chris H. already knew the answer. Love her latest tweet btw. She is obsessed with Josh, and he with her.  :cutesmile!: 

stuckinsc wrote:I know for me, I really like Josh and was a big fan before the season.  Before the episode, I was actually all for Josh and Andi.  It took watching her interact with him for me to jump off that train.  So it wasn't a predisposition again Josh that colored my opinion, it was the actions of Andi (albeit the edited actions of Andi) that turned me off for the couple.  Alanna and I spent one episode talking about how cranky she was being to him.  I think a lot of Jodi fans found it charming, it just made me feel like Josh deserved much better.  I no longer feel that way, Josh is happy with Andi, and I wish the best for them.  I am just not interested enough to actively follow or post in the fan thread.

I do not think Andi would have kept Eric until F4 or F6 on her own.  While they had a great first date and Eric was in my opinion a total package, she seemed to grow less comfortable with him.  Episode three when she interrupted her time with Eric to read Nick's note with the flowers.  I compare this to how Emily or was it Ashley treated the letter from the guy who interrupted time with someone else to hand it to her.  The lead that time said thank you, but tried to delay the interruption until the other person forced the issue.  Andi was delivered flowers and could not wait to read the card/letter.  It was rude to Eric to do so.  It would not have hurt Andi at all to wait until after her time with Eric, but she either was too excited to wait or didn't care enough for Eric to wait.  I do think if all things were equal, Andi would probably have let Eric go that week.  Her interactions with him in week 4 showed that her personal interest in him was waning, not as a human, but as a possible boyfriend/fiance.  I don't think if allowed to send home the guys she knew didn't have a chance as her F1, that Eric would have make it past episode 3.  She didn't have that choice and I think that is what Eric sensed.  I don't blame her, as I don't think Andi is all that good of an actress, and the stress of leading on a man who was intelligent, but wasn't necessarily buying into the bubble was probably hard for her.

Anyway, it is just my opinion, but I don't TPTB did Andi or Josh any favors with the edit.  I would have liked to see more of the fun, smart and silly Josh that we weren't allowed to see.  I also know their was more to the love story between them, but honestly to me, I only started to see glimpses of it in Brussels when she let her ADA mask slip for a while, I did see it from HTDs on, but even then it was peppered with her doubt and lack of trust.  I bet a lot of leads feel this, but with Andi they chose to emphasize it much more than in the past, except for maybe Ian.  But then as much as I loved Ian, I didn't think Ian was ready for marriage.  A longterm girlfriend, yes, but marriage? Nope.  Not a knock on Ian at all.

With all due respect, when you're a fan of one of the guys, but not a fan of the couple, I think it does color your perception of everything as well.  And of course, what constitutes a "bad edit" is relative.  Did they make the show "The Josh Show", play up every good and noble quality he had, and highlight how wonderful he was every moment, the way they did with Chris L?  Not at all, but I still wouldn't call what he got a bad edit, compared to many others.  Some people also thought Ashley's JP got a bad edit, mostly because of the one episode where he was jealous, but in my mind, he got one of the best edits.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Regarding Eric, I agree that Andi wasn't into him, but I don't think it was only because he wasn't into her.  I just don't think they were very compatible, saw absoutely zero sparks on their date (surely the producers picked him for the first date, NOT Andi, and may have even told her she had to give him a rose because he was such a "golden boy" even though I suspect she knew after one date he wasn't "the one"), and if they hadn't gotten into the fight (and if Eric didn't make it clear to production that he wasn't buying into the manipulation and wouldn't make a good lead anyway), I think he would have possibly lasted into the F6, with producer intervention, but no further, just because Andi was really only interested AT ALL (romantically) in her top 4 IMO, so wouldn't really have cared enough about the order of the other rejects to fight over it.

ironcat wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:I know for me, I really like Josh and was a big fan before the season.  Before the episode, I was actually all for Josh and Andi.  It took watching her interact with him for me to jump off that train.  So it wasn't a predisposition again Josh that colored my opinion, it was the actions of Andi (albeit the edited actions of Andi) that turned me off for the couple.  Alanna and I spent one episode talking about how cranky she was being to him.  I think a lot of Jodi fans found it charming, it just made me feel like Josh deserved much better.  I no longer feel that way, Josh is happy with Andi, and I wish the best for them.  I am just not interested enough to actively follow or post in the fan thread.

I do not think Andi would have kept Eric until F4 or F6 on her own.  While they had a great first date and Eric was in my opinion a total package, she seemed to grow less comfortable with him.  Episode three when she interrupted her time with Eric to read Nick's note with the flowers.  I compare this to how Emily or was it Ashley treated the letter from the guy who interrupted time with someone else to hand it to her.  The lead that time said thank you, but tried to delay the interruption until the other person forced the issue.  Andi was delivered flowers and could not wait to read the card/letter.  It was rude to Eric to do so.  It would not have hurt Andi at all to wait until after her time with Eric, but she either was too excited to wait or didn't care enough for Eric to wait.  I do think if all things were equal, Andi would probably have let Eric go that week.  Her interactions with him in week 4 showed that her personal interest in him was waning, not as a human, but as a possible boyfriend/fiance.  I don't think if allowed to send home the guys she knew didn't have a chance as her F1, that Eric would have make it past episode 3.  She didn't have that choice and I think that is what Eric sensed.  I don't blame her, as I don't think Andi is all that good of an actress, and the stress of leading on a man who was intelligent, but wasn't necessarily buying into the bubble was probably hard for her.

Anyway, it is just my opinion, but I don't TPTB did Andi or Josh any favors with the edit.  I would have liked to see more of the fun, smart and silly Josh that we weren't allowed to see.  I also know their was more to the love story between them, but honestly to me, I only started to see glimpses of it in Brussels when she let her ADA mask slip for a while, I did see it from HTDs on, but even then it was peppered with her doubt and lack of trust.  I bet a lot of leads feel this, but with Andi they chose to emphasize it much more than in the past, except for maybe Ian.  But then as much as I loved Ian, I didn't think Ian was ready for marriage.  A longterm girlfriend, yes, but marriage? Nope.  Not a knock on Ian at all.

With all due respect, when you're a fan of one of the guys, but not a fan of the couple, I think it does color your perception of everything as well.  And of course, what constitutes a "bad edit" is relative.  Did they make the show "The Josh Show", play up every good and noble quality he had, and highlight how wonderful he was every moment, the way they did with Chris L?  Not at all, but I still wouldn't call what he got a bad edit, compared to many others.  Some people also thought Ashley's JP got a bad edit, mostly because of the one episode where he was jealous, but in my mind, he got one of the best edits.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Regarding Eric, I agree that Andi wasn't into him, but I don't think it was only because he wasn't into her.  I just don't think they were very compatible, saw absoutely zero sparks on their date (surely the producers picked him for the first date, NOT Andi, and may have even told her she had to give him a rose because he was such a "golden boy" even though I suspect she knew after one date he wasn't "the one"), and if they hadn't gotten into the fight (and if Eric didn't make it clear to production that he wasn't buying into the manipulation and wouldn't make a good lead anyway), I think he would have possibly lasted into the F6, with producer intervention, but no further, just because Andi was really only interested AT ALL (romantically) in her top 4 IMO, so wouldn't really have cared enough about the order of the other rejects to fight over it.

I think you miss my point.  I was a fan of the idea of Josh and Andi, but watching her and the way she treated him turned me off.  But I am not the type of fan who wears rose colored glasses anyway.  I think to truly like anyone you must see the good and the bad.  So maybe I am not a fangirl, but I am a fan.  

I am not criticizing Andi with respect to Eric.  I think he was an interesting guy and at the end of the day they weren't going to be compatible.  I think her ignoring him to read the note with the roses was rude, but if you go back and read at the time, even her blow up with Eric.  I thought it was partially due to the stress of TPTB making her keep him, when she probably wouldn't have kept him around.  Eric wasn't going to be a go with the flow guy.  If he didn't see his relationship with Andi progressing he was going to address it, I am sure that was very stressful for Andi.

I am not an Andi fan, but I have tried to be fair most of the time about her.  I didn't hang her for the Eric incident.  And I even posted before the Finale that I felt bad for her if she had to break up with F2 multiple times.  I changed slightly after in that I could see how Andi and her manor of breaking up with Nick did not shut the door completely and I feel that TPTB pushed Nick to pursue her after the show.  My opinion only.  I think just once if Andi has said, I just love Josh more, I would have been completely on board with Nick never contacting her again.  I expected her to give Nick the closure she have Brian, Marcus, and Chris.  I didn't in what we saw see that.

Is it a constitutional right to give someone closure?  Nope, but to me it is common courtesy.   So I wasn't randomly negative to Andi.  If I saw her straight out of the limos loving and fun with Josh, I never would have wanted her with any one else.  That is how I saw Ashley with JP and I never faltered from wanting Ashley with JP at all.

Even the original post to this discussion to me was not a criticism of Andi, it was a question of why they edited Andi and Josh in the way that they did.  Because in my opinion, the edit didn't do Andi and Josh any favors either.  Again, to me this is me trying to be fair, not ragging on the couple.  If you view my posting this differently, I am sorry, it was not my intention.

I will say to all who ask how Nick on viewing the whole show couldn't see it was Josh from the beginning, I guess at least for me, it wasn't obviously Josh until maybe after his FD.  So not really that long for Nick to have seen the great love of Josh and Andi and for that I blame the edit. I also wanted to add to those who wonder how Nick couldn't see it was always Josh from watching the whole season, maybe if Josh had watched the whole season and seen Nick's interactions with Andi and watched her awkward breakup, maybe Josh might have had a little more understanding of why Nick had such a hard time.

At the end of the day, they are individuals, so I won't fault either for what they did or didn't do. I just wish to move on and not discuss Nick in respect to Josh and Andi anymore.