Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 10 - MTP-LCD-FRC- July 28/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* #2 - Discussion

ironcat wrote:

whit90 wrote:

ironcat wrote:From my personal experience in the recruiting business, and to quote Jack Nicholson, people "can't handle the truth", and when they are told anything critical or uncomplimentary about themselves as the reason for their rejection, they don't take it well and usually try to counter/defend themselves.  This is why the famous "It's not you, it's me" excuse was invented.  I agree that Andi should have said when she dumped Nick that she was in love with Josh, but I have a suspicion that the producers don't want the lead to say that before the FRC.  But my impression of Nick is that wouldn't have been enough and he would have argued with her.  And like I said before, considering the structure of this show, how could he not have just inferred from the circumstances that she must prefer Josh to him if she is sending him home?  Also, from the note he wrote, it appears that knowing that she was in love and engaged to Josh didn't stop him from making another "pitch" to her, trying to get her to change her mind (by questioning her judgment and implying she was a coward, no less).

What I do not understand is why the JODi fans just can not be happy for their couple instead of bashing Nick every chance they can. He has moved on and is doing well he has been nothing than a gentleman on all the interviews he has done. People have changed their mind about him and see him as a very sincere man.  He wanted closure and he got that with the help of Andi's cold heart.

I really don't think my post is "bashing" him, certainly not compared to some of the stuff I've read about Andi and her alleged personality disorder here, some of it I imagine from Nick fans.  Is that the rule that only the "winner" is allowed to be insulted?   

Loved your post. You make a good point, but unfortunately this is what happens every season. Sides are taken by most and it is hard, even though some try, to stay as fair and objective as possible.

[quote="Luvvy"]Did not enjoy so much Nick tonight. I DO think he was led on by Andi. Yes, he was. No doubt about it. That being said, I think the engaged couple was cheated out of time. And I think Nick was an a-hole for calling her out about it.

As for what Andi did with Nick I do not approve. I don't see how you can get engaged to someone after sleeping with someone else not too long ago. So, yea. I can't overlook it. I can acknowledge that there's a double standard.

That being said, I believe that she did love Josh from the beginning and everything else she did was to talk herself out of the fact that he was right in front of her.It is clear from her mannerisms and body language and everything else that she's totally in love with Josh. He is over the moon with her. I think they can make it.

Just wish we got to see more of them.

Favorite part of the proposal was when Josh said at the proposal he knew no one can make her smile the way he does and he's right. It was obvious all season! JMO


      BUT will Josh and his family will get over the slut shamed of Josh fiancée?

Acrunch wrote:Ironcat, I just want to say that I completely agree with you on every point you've made on the subject.  The fact that she chose Josh and is engaged to him should have given Nick all the answers he needed.  What is the mystery here?  Sex or no sex, in the end, just as she said, her relationship with Josh was more and he was the one she wanted to pursue a future with.  IMO, Nick's problem is that his ego was bruised.  Anything other than Andi becoming a puddle in his presence and changing her mind would have ended the same...with Nick spilling their private business on air and trying to embarrass Andi and Josh.  I don't for a second believe he was as "shocked" as everybody that it just "slipped out" and that he didn't deliberately do that.  The smile, the smirk while being interviewd on the subject removed the last bit of doubt I may have had.   And if Andi was cold and her demeanor bothered him, maybe it's because of HIS behavior since she made her choice...behavior that included insulting Josh and having no respect for the fact that she is engaged.

I agree. I just watched ATFR again, IMO, he was VERY calculated-- shakiness, tears..etc. to get sympathy first then...OOPS !!!! , I think he's a very good actor, and what he did was for revenge, pure and simple. Nick is not a gentleman IMO.

Speaking from myself Ironcat I appreciate your posts, opinion and insight, and enjoy reading your thoughts on the matter.

I was one who thought Andi seemed very cold to Nick when she first came out, the actress Andi came out IMO not real Andi. I do think her response to Nick after what he said was well handled and as classy as she could have responded in that situation. The thing that really bugged me with what she said last night was when she kind of back hand complimented herself for not allowing him to pick out a ring, and then when he said he was grateful she kind of fired back at him. It was like what she did by not allowing him to do that made up for anything else he might be feeling. Granted she was PO'd at him which I totally get. I also HATED how she broke up with him saying "I wanted to have a chat" and seemed a little too chipper. I get she knew she was getting engaged to the man of her dreams, but she did not seem sympathatic at all. I also don't think (based on what we saw) she gave him anything that would be enough for closure, she almost blamed it on him for his over-analytical nature from the night before, making it seem like that was what made the difference.

On another note, I am not completely naive to think that Nick has never had sex with someone where it didn't mean anything more than just sex, maybe I am wrong and he takes it very seriously. I think he was more upset with the fact that she knew what sex BETWEEN them meant to him, that between them to him it wasn't just sex, but she did it anyway. He was upset not with the action itself but I believe the level of the intimacy and then being told what you thought was super special wasn't really. That her out was "I didn't say I love you", that is inexcusable, IMO, your actions knowing what they meant to him either meant you felt the same or thought you might or you simply didn't care about their feelings.

I don't think he should have said it on national TV, but I do not think it came from a place of malice or ill-intent. He acted emotionally and it was clearly something that very much bothered him as he mentioned it when she dumped him (I think you took it too far, or that time in the ocean) and then again at the ATFR (the part of replaying things you don't see over and over in your mind)

I think that Andi did wrong, Nick did wrong. I hope they both learn and grow from this.

stuckinsc wrote:

ironcat wrote:What exactly would have provided closure for Nick?  Andi told him that her feelings for Josh were stronger.  He wanted to hear that she loved him and she didn't.  

She did this after he asked the heated question not before.  In my opinion, had she simply told him that she cared for him, but she loved Josh more, it would have helped a lot.  She should have tried this before he asked the question and she might not have been asked the question.

I think that if Andi had told Nick the morning of the FRC that what they had was real but in her heart she knew that she had deeper feelings for Josh, that would have helped. Instead she went in with what was wrong with their relationship and that, IMO, leaves the door open for "maybe I can fix those things" as opposed to "She loves someone else".

Andi has said that she thought that Nick would understand how powerful her relationship with Josh was as he watched the episodes and that he would find his closure that way but I think Nick watched the episode play out and just saw more confirmation that she was giving him all the right signs and it wasn't just in his head.

I think we are awfully hard on these three people and we forget that they are lab rats in a social experiment run by TPTB whose sole goal is to test how to get the most drama out of them. When it fails, we complain that the season was boring and when it succeeds, we rail at the participants rather than the Lab Masters.

sbolduc wrote:Speaking from myself Ironcat I appreciate your posts, opinion and insight, and enjoy reading your thoughts on the matter.

I was one who thought Andi seemed very cold to Nick when she first came out, the actress Andi came out IMO not real Andi. I do think her response to Nick after what he said was well handled and as classy as she could have responded in that situation. The thing that really bugged me with what she said last night was when she kind of back hand complimented herself for not allowing him to pick out a ring, and then when he said he was grateful she kind of fired back at him. It was like what she did by not allowing him to do that made up for anything else he might be feeling. Granted she was PO'd at him which I totally get. I also HATED how she broke up with him saying "I wanted to have a chat" and seemed a little too chipper. I get she knew she was getting engaged to the man of her dreams, but she did not seem sympathatic at all. I also don't think (based on what we saw) she gave him anything that would be enough for closure, she almost blamed it on him for his over-analytical nature from the night before, making it seem like that was what made the difference.

On another note, I am not completely naive to think that Nick has never had sex with someone where it didn't mean anything more than just sex, maybe I am wrong and he takes it very seriously. I think he was more upset with the fact that she knew what sex BETWEEN them meant to him, that between them to him it wasn't just sex, but she did it anyway. He was upset not with the action itself but I believe the level of the intimacy and then being told what you thought was super special wasn't really. That her out was "I didn't say I love you", that is inexcusable, IMO, your actions knowing what they meant to him either meant you felt the same or thought you might or you simply didn't care about their feelings.

I don't think he should have said it on national TV, but I do not think it came from a place of malice or ill-intent. He acted emotionally and it was clearly something that very much bothered him as he mentioned it when she dumped him (I think you took it too far, or that time in the ocean) and then again at the ATFR (the part of replaying things you don't see over and over in your mind)

I think that Andi did wrong, Nick did wrong. I hope they both learn and grow from this.

Thanks for writing this, it's a very balanced point of view.

One last thing I wanted to add, I have no problem with Andi or any women for that matter sleeping with multiple men, I do not think less of a women or man for that matter, that is their own perogative.

I do have an issue when you do that with someone knowing how much it means to them and you are not feeling the same about the act, but project that you are feeling the same.

So yes, Andi, you are a grown woman and you are right you can do whatever you want to do, its your body. I absolutely hate what people are calling you because you don't deserve that, you don't deserve to be called a s*ut, thats not what you are. You are just lacking some understanding and empathy if you did know what that meant to Nick, it not meaning the same, and did it anyway.

sbolduc wrote:One last thing I wanted to add, I have no problem with Andi or any women for that matter sleeping with multiple men, I do not think less of a women or man for that matter, that is their own perogative.

I do have an issue when you do that with someone knowing how much it means to them and you are not feeling the same about the act, but project that you are feeling the same.

So yes, Andi, you are a grown woman and you are right you can do whatever you want to do, its your body. I absolutely hate what people are calling you because you don't deserve that, you don't deserve to be called a s*ut, thats not what you are. You are just lacking some understanding and empathy if you did know what that meant to Nick, it not meaning the same, and did it anyway.

  

richmondrose wrote:

sbolduc wrote:One last thing I wanted to add, I have no problem with Andi or any women for that matter sleeping with multiple men, I do not think less of a women or man for that matter, that is their own perogative.

I do have an issue when you do that with someone knowing how much it means to them and you are not feeling the same about the act, but project that you are feeling the same.

So yes, Andi, you are a grown woman and you are right you can do whatever you want to do, its your body. I absolutely hate what people are calling you because you don't deserve that, you don't deserve to be called a s*ut, thats not what you are. You are just lacking some understanding and empathy if you did know what that meant to Nick, it not meaning the same, and did it anyway.

  

Agree. With every word. ^
As far as I'm concerned she could have had sex with every one of the 25 guys. That's up to her. As she said: "she is a grown woman". Unfortunately, not a very empathetic, mature one.
Me and I is wrong. She had a chance to learn after Eric---that was just lip service. She hasn't learned anything other than what serves her and when it serves her.
I hope she treats Josh well, if not, I'm sure Momma will read her the riot act.
And Nick--imo, of course, he was wrong. It may have been said in the heat of the moment, I suspect that. But still there is no excuse.
IDK--After all of this, Emily is looking pretty darn good.

sbolduc wrote:Speaking from myself Ironcat I appreciate your posts, opinion and insight, and enjoy reading your thoughts on the matter.

I was one who thought Andi seemed very cold to Nick when she first came out, the actress Andi came out IMO not real Andi. I do think her response to Nick after what he said was well handled and as classy as she could have responded in that situation. The thing that really bugged me with what she said last night was when she kind of back hand complimented herself for not allowing him to pick out a ring, and then when he said he was grateful she kind of fired back at him. It was like what she did by not allowing him to do that made up for anything else he might be feeling. Granted she was PO'd at him which I totally get. I also HATED how she broke up with him saying "I wanted to have a chat" and seemed a little too chipper. I get she knew she was getting engaged to the man of her dreams, but she did not seem sympathatic at all. I also don't think (based on what we saw) she gave him anything that would be enough for closure, she almost blamed it on him for his over-analytical nature from the night before, making it seem like that was what made the difference.

On another note, I am not completely naive to think that Nick has never had sex with someone where it didn't mean anything more than just sex, maybe I am wrong and he takes it very seriously. I think he was more upset with the fact that she knew what sex BETWEEN them meant to him, that between them to him it wasn't just sex, but she did it anyway. He was upset not with the action itself but I believe the level of the intimacy and then being told what you thought was super special wasn't really. That her out was "I didn't say I love you", that is inexcusable, IMO, your actions knowing what they meant to him either meant you felt the same or thought you might or you simply didn't care about their feelings.

I don't think he should have said it on national TV, but I do not think it came from a place of malice or ill-intent. He acted emotionally and it was clearly something that very much bothered him as he mentioned it when she dumped him (I think you took it too far, or that time in the ocean) and then again at the ATFR (the part of replaying things you don't see over and over in your mind)

I think that Andi did wrong, Nick did wrong. I hope they both learn and grow from this.

I actually agree with much of your post.   

I absolutely think Andi could have handled sending Nick home better, even though I suspect that the leads are instructed not to verbally say that they are in love with the other guy at that time, because the producers want to save that moment for the FRC. It's the only reason I can think of why Andi didn't take that very obvious "easy way out" and neither did Emily with Arie. Even so, she could have come up with a more eloquent and compassionate sendoff for him, but I suspect she was embarrassed and felt guilty to some degree specifically because she knew she had led him on too much (probably regretted the sex as well and felt uncomfortable, and just wanted the moment to be over ASAP). I don't think that brands her as as horrible and irredeemable a person as some here do, but she did fumble under the pressure, as some leads have before her. Like the song says, "breaking up is hard to do" and a lot of people are bad at it.

I do think that much of why she didn't respond to Nick's continued requests for post show interaction was because of the bad blood that was starting to build almost immediately between him and her/Josh, both from the plane video, and I gather that Josh didn't really like Nick all that much anyway. Plus once Nick started making "those comments" on the show, whatever guilt or compassion she might have had for him immediately post filming disappeared (Kelly's tweets kind of support this). And the letter he wrote her I suspect offended her, because, even knowing that she was with Josh, he basically questioned her choice, and intimated that she made it out of fear and was too cowardly to take a chance (the right one) with him. I'd be offended by it too under the circumstances.

So the result was that instead of being kind to him on stage at the ATFR, she was coldly polite and civil, but seemed adamant about not getting into any sort of emotional discussion about her feelings. Which was the absolute wrong way to handle Nick who wanted to be placated. So he dropped the bombshell and then she had no choice.

Considering the perfect storm that resulted, I have to wonder how much the producers worked behind the scenes to manipulate the situation so that something like this would happen. It wouldn't surprise me if they storyboarded this once they saw how things were going.

It's like I said for most of the season--the filming was 2/3 of the storyboard. From the filming of the FRC to the live ATFR was the final 1/3 of the story.
Now it's over. Everyone back to their lives.

vivi2 wrote:

Acrunch wrote:Ironcat, I just want to say that I completely agree with you on every point you've made on the subject.  The fact that she chose Josh and is engaged to him should have given Nick all the answers he needed.  What is the mystery here?  Sex or no sex, in the end, just as she said, her relationship with Josh was more and he was the one she wanted to pursue a future with.  IMO, Nick's problem is that his ego was bruised.  Anything other than Andi becoming a puddle in his presence and changing her mind would have ended the same...with Nick spilling their private business on air and trying to embarrass Andi and Josh.  I don't for a second believe he was as "shocked" as everybody that it just "slipped out" and that he didn't deliberately do that.  The smile, the smirk while being interviewd on the subject removed the last bit of doubt I may have had.   And if Andi was cold and her demeanor bothered him, maybe it's because of HIS behavior since she made her choice...behavior that included insulting Josh and having no respect for the fact that she is engaged.

I agree.  I just watched ATFR again, IMO, he was VERY calculated-- shakiness, tears..etc. to get sympathy first then...OOPS !!!! , I think he's a very good actor, and what he did was for revenge, pure and simple. Nick is not a gentleman IMO.

Sly he is. And hoping they can get to a point where they can be friends (or whatever) Lol ummm, bye Nick.