Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 10 - MTP-LCD-FRC- July 28/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* #2 - Discussion

ironcat wrote:From my personal experience in the recruiting business, and to quote Jack Nicholson, people "can't handle the truth", and when they are told anything critical or uncomplimentary about themselves as the reason for their rejection, they don't take it well and usually try to counter/defend themselves.  This is why the famous "It's not you, it's me" excuse was invented.  I agree that Andi should have said when she dumped Nick that she was in love with Josh, but I have a suspicion that the producers don't want the lead to say that before the FRC.  But my impression of Nick is that wouldn't have been enough and he would have argued with her.  And like I said before, considering the structure of this show, how could he not have just inferred from the circumstances that she must prefer Josh to him if she is sending him home?  Also, from the note he wrote, it appears that knowing that she was in love and engaged to Josh didn't stop him from making another "pitch" to her, trying to get her to change her mind (by questioning her judgment and implying she was a coward, no less).

Ironcat, excellent. You are spot on tonight.   

Ironcat, I just want to say that I completely agree with you on every point you've made on the subject. The fact that she chose Josh and is engaged to him should have given Nick all the answers he needed. What is the mystery here? Sex or no sex, in the end, just as she said, her relationship with Josh was more and he was the one she wanted to pursue a future with. IMO, Nick's problem is that his ego was bruised. Anything other than Andi becoming a puddle in his presence and changing her mind would have ended the same...with Nick spilling their private business on air and trying to embarrass Andi and Josh. I don't for a second believe he was as "shocked" as everybody that it just "slipped out" and that he didn't deliberately do that. The smile, the smirk while being interviewd on the subject removed the last bit of doubt I may have had. And if Andi was cold and her demeanor bothered him, maybe it's because of HIS behavior since she made her choice...behavior that included insulting Josh and having no respect for the fact that she is engaged.

Steel2009 wrote:One thing I will agree with Nick on,  is she took it too far!  It was a mistake and I'm sure she realizes that now.

We will never know the reason or what was going thru her head. All we can do is guess:  

-She was scared of her relationship with Josh  
-Nick's FS date was first (josh had not told her he loved her yet  Nick said ILY  FIRST during FS date),
- She was always seriously considering Nick over josh because of her over analyzing and being scared.
-TBTP encouraged her to "test" her relationship with Josh ...(got this impression from reading this article)

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Bachelorette-Harrison-Andi-Josh-1085065.aspx

I spent some time with Andi and Josh today and they're ...
Chris Harrison: All over each other!
Yes! Has it been like that since they got engaged?
Harrison: Honestly it's been like that since the middle of the show. The first time I really noticed it was Italy. From then on I remember them being inseparable and him being her No. 1.
So do you think she knew all along?
Harrison: She did a good job of keeping her mind open and going through this and that was the toughest thing. It's important and it works if you continue to let it. If you shut down and get tunnel vision, well, if that person doesn't turn out to be who you thought then the relationship is over and you've squandered a wonderful opportunity. So the toughest thing is to convince Andi you can look beyond Josh and it's OK. It doesn't mean you won't pick them, but put everything to the test. Not only does it keep your mind open to other things, but it continues to test what you have with Josh. It gives you a litmus test.  

At end of the day, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth but it sounds like Andi and Josh are happy and are trying to move on.  BamaGirl said it best:  

bamagal wrote:
Folks, we are "beating a dead horse" !  If the couple involved have moved on from this, perhaps it is time that we also refocus on the two people and their love story.  Dissecting Andi's actions, and questioning her morality only give Nick the reaction that he wanted.  I will always believe that this revelation was a calculated PR plan from the inception -- to undermine the happiness and take the spotlight off Josh and Andi.  It was not an act of love -- it was an act of revenge!

Steel, I appreciate your well thought out post. I have been a Nick fan and a Josh fan all season, and not an Andi fan. I don't care if she had sex with Nick, it meant more to him than her and maybe she should have considered this. I have also stated that I think he said what he did out of hurt and wanting closure she wouldn't give him, but I wish he hadn't done it.

When I watched her letting him go what stood out to me was that Nick asked if it was Josh she didn't answer. Maybe she did later, but if she had simply told him then, what we had was great but in the end what I have with Josh is just more, it might have made a difference. I think she left it unclear to him and I think producers as punishment for the video (which he had no control over) led him to believe she might have changed her mind. That left it open, so instead of just getting over it he held out hope. I don't blame her for not wanting to meet him, but if she had given him a quick meeting with a little compassion instead of a cold approach and again just said, I did care for you, but with Josh it was more, he may have been okay.

I wish Josh and Andi stay together. I don't appreciate Josh's unwillingness to show a little compassion to Nick's broken heart. Both Josh and Nick said not nice things about each other, neither was innocent on that account. Nick made a mistake. I have seen Josh tweet a lot of inspirational and Christian theme tweets, so I would have liked some compassion from Josh as well as Andi. He didn't have to say it was okay that Nick did it, but he doesn't have to stoop to Nick's level. If Josh and Andi both lack compassion then they may be a perfect fit. I wanted better for Josh, but maybe she really is the perfect woman for him.

All the Jodi fans were right all season, so enjoy your time. I just wish that a little compassion for the one who lost and also was forced to play along with TPTB because someone else recorded his private thoughts without his permission. Josh won the woman, why does he need to say awful things about the man who lost?

ironcat wrote:From my personal experience in the recruiting business, and to quote Jack Nicholson, people "can't handle the truth", and when they are told anything critical or uncomplimentary about themselves as the reason for their rejection, they don't take it well and usually try to counter/defend themselves.  This is why the famous "It's not you, it's me" excuse was invented.  I agree that Andi should have said when she dumped Nick that she was in love with Josh, but I have a suspicion that the producers don't want the lead to say that before the FRC.  But my impression of Nick is that wouldn't have been enough and he would have argued with her.  And like I said before, considering the structure of this show, how could he not have just inferred from the circumstances that she must prefer Josh to him if she is sending him home?  Also, from the note he wrote, it appears that knowing that she was in love and engaged to Josh didn't stop him from making another "pitch" to her, trying to get her to change her mind (by questioning her judgment and implying she was a coward, no less).

What I do not understand is why the JODi fans just can not be happy for their couple instead of bashing Nick every chance they can. He has moved on and is doing well he has been nothing than a gentleman on all the interviews he has done. People have changed their mind about him and see him as a very sincere man. He wanted closure and he got that with the help of Andi's cold heart.

Stuckinsc, because he embarrassed his fiance on national TV in front of his family, her family and their friends.  They are moving on now and there is no love lost between them.  Sad really.  I am sure they will forgive but never forget.

Ironic that Nick has stated he hopes they can be friends.  Never going to happen and I am sure this is sinking in now.  

ironcat wrote:I wasn't a fan of Andi's ranting against JPG, thought it was ridiculous and still think it was mostly instigated/encouraged by the producers as part of her Bachelorette audition.  But I also don't think it defined her as a person, anymore than I think Nick "kissing and telling" defines him as a person.  Neither one is a monster, neither one is a saint either.

I see Andi as a flawed individual who still has some growing and learning to do.  I don't see her as a horrible witch who will never sustain a loving relationship because of her flaws.  Whether she and Josh work out I don't know, but if they don't I suspect it won't be because she can be a diva and a brat.  He seems to like that about her, some men do.  Clearly, Nick would be too sensitive and intense to deal with her, and hopefully he realizes this now.

I have no problem with people having flaws. I have tons myself, but I try to grow and learn. That is what I fail to see in Andi. I hope she will start to do that. No one is perfect, but we can always try to be better and learning to show empathy and compassion is a great place to start.

whit90 wrote:

ironcat wrote:From my personal experience in the recruiting business, and to quote Jack Nicholson, people "can't handle the truth", and when they are told anything critical or uncomplimentary about themselves as the reason for their rejection, they don't take it well and usually try to counter/defend themselves.  This is why the famous "It's not you, it's me" excuse was invented.  I agree that Andi should have said when she dumped Nick that she was in love with Josh, but I have a suspicion that the producers don't want the lead to say that before the FRC.  But my impression of Nick is that wouldn't have been enough and he would have argued with her.  And like I said before, considering the structure of this show, how could he not have just inferred from the circumstances that she must prefer Josh to him if she is sending him home?  Also, from the note he wrote, it appears that knowing that she was in love and engaged to Josh didn't stop him from making another "pitch" to her, trying to get her to change her mind (by questioning her judgment and implying she was a coward, no less).

What I do not understand is why the JODi fans just can not be happy for their couple instead of bashing Nick every chance they can. He has moved on and is doing well he has been nothing than a gentleman on all the interviews he has done. People have changed their mind about him and see him as a very sincere man.  He wanted closure and he got that with the help of Andi's cold heart.

The Jodi fans are extremely happy and we are celebrating their love in their thread. Just responding to comments and defending "our" couple. Not everyone out there has changed their mind..... imo and I can respectfully disagree about him wanting closure and why he did what he did. Does not matter now, Andi and Josh have moved on, and soon the public and the board will too.

whit90 wrote:

ironcat wrote:From my personal experience in the recruiting business, and to quote Jack Nicholson, people "can't handle the truth", and when they are told anything critical or uncomplimentary about themselves as the reason for their rejection, they don't take it well and usually try to counter/defend themselves.  This is why the famous "It's not you, it's me" excuse was invented.  I agree that Andi should have said when she dumped Nick that she was in love with Josh, but I have a suspicion that the producers don't want the lead to say that before the FRC.  But my impression of Nick is that wouldn't have been enough and he would have argued with her.  And like I said before, considering the structure of this show, how could he not have just inferred from the circumstances that she must prefer Josh to him if she is sending him home?  Also, from the note he wrote, it appears that knowing that she was in love and engaged to Josh didn't stop him from making another "pitch" to her, trying to get her to change her mind (by questioning her judgment and implying she was a coward, no less).

What I do not understand is why the JODi fans just can not be happy for their couple instead of bashing Nick every chance they can. He has moved on and is doing well he has been nothing than a gentleman on all the interviews he has done. People have changed their mind about him and see him as a very sincere man.  He wanted closure and he got that with the help of Andi's cold heart.

I really don't think my post is "bashing" him, certainly not compared to some of the stuff I've read about Andi and her alleged personality disorder here, some of it I imagine from Nick fans. Is that the rule that only the "winner" is allowed to be insulted?   

kellkell wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:You know, watching the interaction between Nick and Andi from the ATFR back, I don't understand how people can say Andi was harsh to him. She was quiet and stern when he couldn't process his words or form his thoughts, but when Chris Harrison asked her if she was ever in love with Nick, I thought she gave an excellent answer and opened up.

While she said she was not ever in love with him and that she was careful not to say that to him, she went on to say that she had a great relationship with Nick. If she were do to it all over again she stated she absolutely knew she would still have that great relationship with Nick. There was nothing wrong with their relationship and then she says as difficult and as harsh as it is to say, at the end of the day, how do you compete with a greater relationship or a greater love? She even goes on to say that she probably made a mistake and she should have just told him that months ago (I'm guessing the first time he tried to contact her or when she broke up with him). I love how she just simply said at the end of the day, that's all it comes down to. One relationship was greater than the other and she reiterates on more than one occasion that there was nothing Nick did wrong and there was nothing wrong with their relationship.

In my opinion and for me, it's as simple as Nick didn't like what he heard. He was expecting her to say something else, although for an engaged woman apparently in love, she gave the perfect answer, and he said some things that he shouldn't have. But like someone stated a few posts above me, people make mistakes. It's funny how Andi essentially admitted to one during her speech to Nick, but I guess that went a bit unnoticed.

I'm not an Andi fan, but you absolutely nailed it.  She wasn't disrespectful towards Nick during ATFR.  She admitted to him that they had a great connection, and as he should already understand due to the fact that it was a show where she must choose only one, it just so happens she had a greater connection with someone else.  Period.  End of story.  

Now maybe Andi should have said all of this to him much sooner rather than later, but who's to say (due to editing) that she didn't explain this to Nick when she first broke it off with him months ago?  Which could be a reason why she's been avoiding him all of this time, like many in her situation who have moved on from an ex.  There is nothing new under the sun.  Unfortunately, in the real world people sleep with people they don't love.  In the real world, people have even avoided an ex at all costs because they've already had the closure that they needed.  It's time for Nick to move on.  But now via an US Weekly interview, he's open to rekindling a friendship with Josh again?  Wow, maybe he deserves the stalker label after all.

I think I saw a different AFTR, I did see Andi do all of the bolded, once Nick asked if she didn't love him why did she make love to him? Before that she was giving him nothing but cold Andi who never loved him and never said it. I understand that once he asked the unfortunate question she gave him answers. I think if she had been a little more open before he asked that it could have been avoided. Do I know that for a fact? Nope, but I do know that she had little to no empathy for Nick until he asked that question.

Rolly wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:Looking back on the season, I feel that Andi used this group of guys as her own little Bachelorette party.  There were many, many clues that Andi was focused on the physical looks of her guys, was soaking up their adoration to feed her own ego, and was able to rationalize her actions by focusing on the fact that they were all there because she wanted them there and she was the center of that universe.  She said as much to Josh on the LD date, to Eric and the other guys that GD, and when drunk Craig got out of hand.  They were there to focus fully on her.

When she used the response to the eliminated men that she wished JPG had eliminated her as soon as he knew she wasn't the one, she contradicted herself.  Then why did she not do the same?  Simple, because she had a show to produce.  She was so angry with JPG after their FS.  I still do not understand why.  Not taking into account anything he did or said to other women or post show, what did JPG do to Andi that was so wrong?  If we are to assume that they did not sleep together, then his sin was in wasting one day of her time.  If she did not enjoy his company, she was free to not accept his rose if he offered her one at the next rose ceremony.  If she did have sex with JPG and then had buyers remorse, who is to blame there, and most imporantly, isn't it the same thing she did to Nick.  It was like a twisted way of paying it forward on this show.  She was used so she felt justified in using Nick?

Everytime we discuss sex it it a tricky thing because of differences in opinion.  Mature minds can admit that different people think differently about sex.  But, if you are going to live by a certain set of morals, then you should be able to defend those morals.  In otherwords, if Andi was a believer in friends with benefits, then she shouls have been able to articulate why she believes in it.  The problem is that when you partake in an activity with 2 participants, they both have to be on the same page.  If they are, no misunderstandings.  If they aren't, confusion and hurt.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out.  But it does take the ability to empathize and think of others needs before your own.  After watching this season, I am fairly certain that Andi is not capable of that.

I see her relationship with Josh as lust.  I don't believe she will have the ability to make it last longterm.  She might get married to Josh, but I bet it will not be an easy road for Josh.  Some guys are willing to put up with a lot of crap in order to keep a woman.  Maybe Josh is one if those who is so blinded by the idea of love that he will be able to stick it out.  I just don't think she is going to make it easy.  

I didn't like Andi on JPG.  Felt she tried her hardest to shame him on the show and afterwards.  She is best friends with that horribly insensitive Kelly.  She is a self proclaimed diva and brat.  I did give her the benefit of the doubt this season, even said she was doing a decent job as the lead.  I now recind that compliment.  My opinion of her remains that I would never be friends with someone like her in real life.   think she has a lot of maturing left to do, but if the people around her continue to protect her and shield her from her own consequences she will never grow as a person.  Obviously a situation like ATFR rallies her troops around her, and that is to be expected. But going forward I hope that those closest to her sit down and have a heart to heart with her about her actions and that they stand up to her self righteousness. Jmo

Good post--or to me it is!   
This is how I see ME and I. I don't think in all the history of the 'Ette I have disliked an 'Ette more. At least I have been consistent and felt this way since day 1 and I didn't even see her on JPG's season.

ITA with both of these posts!!!  

I am me three on this. I tried to like MeAndI, but she didn't give us anything to work with. I am happy that JPG is getting a little credit. She was not nice to him on the show or after, a little taste of that medicine is appropriate.

She is reaping what she sowed.

ironcat wrote:

whit90 wrote:

ironcat wrote:From my personal experience in the recruiting business, and to quote Jack Nicholson, people "can't handle the truth", and when they are told anything critical or uncomplimentary about themselves as the reason for their rejection, they don't take it well and usually try to counter/defend themselves.  This is why the famous "It's not you, it's me" excuse was invented.  I agree that Andi should have said when she dumped Nick that she was in love with Josh, but I have a suspicion that the producers don't want the lead to say that before the FRC.  But my impression of Nick is that wouldn't have been enough and he would have argued with her.  And like I said before, considering the structure of this show, how could he not have just inferred from the circumstances that she must prefer Josh to him if she is sending him home?  Also, from the note he wrote, it appears that knowing that she was in love and engaged to Josh didn't stop him from making another "pitch" to her, trying to get her to change her mind (by questioning her judgment and implying she was a coward, no less).

What I do not understand is why the JODi fans just can not be happy for their couple instead of bashing Nick every chance they can. He has moved on and is doing well he has been nothing than a gentleman on all the interviews he has done. People have changed their mind about him and see him as a very sincere man.  He wanted closure and he got that with the help of Andi's cold heart.

I really don't think my post is "bashing" him, certainly not compared to some of the stuff I've read about Andi and her alleged personality disorder here, some of it I imagine from Nick fans.  Is that the rule that only the "winner" is allowed to be insulted?   

I monitor most threads/posts and can objectively say there has been equal opportunity bashing---no bars held for almost anyone in the franchise! And this is fine as long as it is not a fan thread of the bashee! It's also good to stay on topic when at all possible.  

ironcat wrote:What exactly would have provided closure for Nick?  Andi told him that her feelings for Josh were stronger.  He wanted to hear that she loved him and she didn't.  

She did this after he asked the heated question not before. In my opinion, had she simply told him that she cared for him, but she loved Josh more, it would have helped a lot. She should have tried this before he asked the question and she might not have been asked the question.