Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #6

[stuckinsc]

Lindsay didn't need to go after Sean for closure. He stated it to her when he let her go - that he cared for her, but he felt more deeply for someone else. Nick needed to hear this vs. you never meant anything to me.

Right, but don't you think Sean telling her he loved her (no matter what he really meant by saying that) could have been possibly confusing to Lindsay? I would certainly think so. I wouldn't even know how to process that if I were in her shoes.

Andi gave that to him at the ATFR. She never said he meant nothing to her. She actually reiterated that she cared for him and that if she were to do the whole thing over, she would still have the great relationship with Nick that she did. She told him she liked him and that everything she said about him on the show was true, such as him making her feel like a woman, but in the end she fell in love with Josh and their relationship was stronger. She even admitted her mistake and said she probably should have told him that months ago. He got the closure that all F2 look for, and he didn't like what she said, so he retaliated against her.

Let's face it, dumping Nick, picking someone else and deciding to get engaged to that person, and then turning Nick down the first time should have given him more than enough of a realization that she didn't want to be with him. If that wasn't enough, he should have realized it completely the second time he tried to speak with her after filming had ended.  

Deviating from the sex topic, I think it's so interesting that Nick said he watched the entire show, which I assume means her relationships with the other men too, including Josh, and still didn't "get it." Even Andi said she hoped watching the show would help give him closure if he saw her relationship with Josh but apparently that wasn't the case.

But, the first time they showed her relationship with Josh without huge doubt was maybe Brussels, in the night portion when she finally got her FILY, HTDs got much better, but according most I have heard here, she didn't truly know it was Josh until F3 FDs, so that would be before the MTA was even taped.  Not her fault, but the edit showed her doubting Josh until the FS.

I have also said if Josh had watched the whole season, he might have understood Nick's confusion a little more too.

[unknown82]

The example with Lindsay is to show that someone like Nick who didn't get much closure, but she didn't go after Sean once the show was over. She had enough respect for both Sean and Catherine to respect their relationship.

Lindsay didn't need to go after Sean for closure. He stated it to her when he let her go - that he cared for her, but he felt more deeply for someone else. Nick needed to hear this vs. you never meant anything to me.

     Oh, ya ... and Sean never slept with Lindsey ..... And not every F2 is going to handle rejection the same way. Nick is handling it his own way just the way Andi decided to handle rejecting Nick her own way, IMHO.

[Ash2214]

Right, but don't you think Sean telling her he loved her (no matter what he really meant by saying that) could have been possibly confusing to Lindsay? I would certainly think so. I wouldn't even know how to process that if I were in her shoes.

Andi gave that to him at the ATFR. She never said he meant nothing to her. She actually reiterated that she cared for him and that if she were to do the whole thing over, she would still have the great relationship with Nick that she did. She told him she liked him and that everything she said about him on the show was true, such as him making her feel like a woman, but in the end she fell in love with Josh and their relationship was stronger. She even admitted her mistake and said she probably should have told him that months ago. He got the closure that all F2 look for, and he didn't like what she said, so he retaliated against her.

Let's face it, dumping Nick, picking someone else and deciding to get engaged to that person, and then turning Nick down the first time should have given him more than enough of a realization that she didn't want to be with him. If that wasn't enough, he should have realized it completely the second time he tried to speak with her after filming had ended.  

Deviating from the sex topic, I think it's so interesting that Nick said he watched the entire show, which I assume means her relationships with the other men too, including Josh, and still didn't "get it." Even Andi said she hoped watching the show would help give him closure if he saw her relationship with Josh but apparently that wasn't the case.

But, the first time they showed her relationship with Josh without huge doubt was maybe Brussels, in the night portion when she finally got her FILY, HTDs got much better, but according most I have heard here, she didn't truly know it was Josh until F3 FDs, so that would be before the MTA was even taped.  Not her fault, but the edit showed her doubting Josh until the FS.

I have also said if Josh had watched the whole season, he might have understood Nick's confusion a little more too.

Still, from night one out of the limo there was obvious chemistry. Their first one-on-one was pretty telling too. The Brussels date was before hometowns. Regardless of Andi's doubts, Nick had to see the connection there. This is not to take away from the relationship that she shared with Nick either, but I think some people just find it difficult to understand how although Andi shared great connections with both guys, why couldn't Nick just think that possibly, while she cared for both of them, her relationship and love for Josh was just more than hers with Nick especially considering he has said he has watched the show before.

[Guest]

Ash, I defended Andi during the season and didn't have a favorite contestant (well, ok, I confess, I think Brian is hawwttt), but I was really taken aback by Andi's attitude and her fumbling behavior as she let Nick go. It seemed as though she hadn't thought through what she wanted to say or how he might react which struck me as odd for a supposedly intelligent woman. My opinion of her went downhill from there.

I'm not going to defend Nick or make a case against Andi because I just don't care enough about their sins or grievances.

[Alanna]

Deviating from the sex topic, I think it's so interesting that Nick said he watched the entire show, which I assume means her relationships with the other men too, including Josh, and still didn't "get it." Even Andi said she hoped watching the show would help give him closure if he saw her relationship with Josh but apparently that wasn't the case.

But, the first time they showed her relationship with Josh without huge doubt was maybe Brussels, in the night portion when she finally got her FILY, HTDs got much better, but according most I have heard here, she didn't truly know it was Josh until F3 FDs, so that would be before the MTA was even taped.  Not her fault, but the edit showed her doubting Josh until the FS.

I have also said if Josh had watched the whole season, he might have understood Nick's confusion a little more too.

Still, from night one out of the limo there was obvious chemistry. Their first one-on-one was pretty telling too. The Brussels date was before hometowns. Regardless of Andi's doubts, Nick had to see the connection there. This is not to take away from the relationship that she shared with Nick either, but I think some people just find it difficult to understand how although Andi shared great connections with both guys, why couldn't Nick just think that possibly, while she cared for both of them, her relationship and love for Josh was just more than hers with Nick especially considering he has said he has watched the show before.

Right. Exactly. Nick acts like he just doesn't get it, still, months after it's all over but it was so obvious IMO. The week Nick said ifly was the week she fought with Josh and instead of focusing on Nick, she was miserable and declaring there is no love left in this world for her or whatever, doesn't that tip Nick off watching post-show? And it was what, week 6? IDK. Maybe he's subconsciously trying not to get it because it's easier to just go through the whole dialogue that Cari posted.

[Cari]

This is the general discussion thread. Isn't a free for all for the said named discussion thread? We can call him an idiot or what have ya? Anybody can bash and hate on him on this thread, right?

However, it is also a free for all: anybody has the right to defend NickIt is free for all for Andi and Josh, too. They can be called cold hearted b*tch,  Josh dumb. Anybody has that right to call them names perhaps in the process of defending Nick.

Likewise, it wouldn't be a surprise, too. If someone comes to the defense when Andi (or Josh by extension) is hated on or bashed.  If anybody calls Nick stalker or serial killer on this thread as a result, it anybody's right to defend Andi. And the vicious cycle goes on. Nick will be defended. Andi bashed. Andi defended. Nick bashed. Hence, my uber lengthy sleepy "Nick letter" is mocking (criticizing his blog post) Nick and in the process defending Andi.

Eta:

I dint know Nick and family is going thru a tough time. My timing sucks.   

[Ash2214]

Ash, I defended Andi during the season and didn't have a favorite contestant (well, ok, I confess, I think Brian is hawwttt), but I was really taken aback by Andi's attitude and her fumbling behavior as she let Nick go. It seemed as though she hadn't thought through what she wanted to say or how he might react which struck me as odd for a supposedly intelligent woman. My opinion of her went downhill from there.

I'm not going to defend Nick or make a case against Andi because I just don't care enough about their sins or grievances.

I completely understand. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and whether I agree or not, I enjoy reading them. I would assume it would be quite difficult breaking someone's heart that you know really loves you, but you don't love them. It's difficult and I'm guessing it was difficult for Andi. It's tough. What do you say? Do you say you're completely in love with someone else and you're 100% sure you want to spend your life with them and not you? That would hurt Nick. Anything she was going to say was going to hurt Nick. Or do you try to be as diplomatic and kind of stern as possible? Tricky situation.

I personally think Andi handled the ATFR perfectly. She's engaged to someone else and apparently really happy and in love. Nick has tried to get into contact with her on more than one occasion. She's not going to be all over him and be super sweet to him because that's not fair to Josh or Nick. It would certainly send mixed signals to Nick who clearly had in his mind still that there was a possibility of her changing her mind. She gave him the perfect explanation. She cared for him and all of that was real, but she fell in love with someone else and it was just more right. She admitted her mistake of just not telling him that months ago. For Andi, admitting her mistake is a big leap for her.

[GrahamGal]

It is ALL your fault, Andi. Right from Juan Pab's season you've shown you are a coldhearted b*tch! You were unlike any other lead, you ALONE led on your F2. How could you?! You had meaningless sex with me when you knew all along I love you? You know how know how special sex is to me? You knew that in the FS, I would not make love to you If I knew days after you were choosing Josh who is a great guy by the way! The only reason I attempted a few times to contact you is for me to have closure. You see, I do not understand. I thought you loved me?! You made me feel very special. I knew you could not say I love you back or "I'll marry you" but how could you give me the Hometown date rose when I thought you gave me that important rose to express you love me back? How could you? You did not specifically say why you did not choose me at the morning of the FRC. I had to know whyyyyy. So I had to. I had to call Chris if I can contact you. I had to know whyyyyy. I need closure. I had to. Because have to move on. I cannot. First, i had to know whyyyy. I learned you were in Mexico with Josh who is a great guy by the way. But I'm not sure if you're happy with him because I cannot forget what we had. It was special. You made me very special. You made me feel very loved. So... I had to know whyyyy. Watching the episodes they made me a villain. My family is angry. I really did not say those things. I had to. They made me do it. It is just editing, Andi. I know in my heart you do not believe I was a villain they made me to be. Because we are so connected. We get each other. We are each other's half. I do not understand whyyyyy. So I had to go to the MTA. I had to. I want to know whyyyyyy you did not choose me. I cannot wait for the AFTR. But I do not understand why you don't want to. You told Ali I did not try to contact you. I did. I had to know whyyyy. I know Josh would not mind because he's a great guy. You read my letter. Dint you remember the special time we had when you read that letter? Yes I hoped a little. Because I'm not sure if you are happy with Josh who am sure dint mind that letter. Surely he did not because he is a great guy. He did understand, right? I am certain you understood where I was coming from. What we had was special. I felt your love. That is why I.NEED.TO.KNOW.WHYYYY. That is not creepy at all because I know you understood. You get me. I know you understood why I need closure before the AFTR. I need to know as soon as possible so I can finally move on. And yet, what happened?! Why were you so cold in the AFTR as if we had nothing special. How could you tell me you never loved me? Whyyyyy. You gave me the Hometown Date Rose which I felt is your way of saying I love you back! Whyyyyy. You should have not given me that rose. How could you? We made sweetest love in the FS. You knew how I felt? I thought you loved me? Then you say you never loved me? You made me very, very special. You gave me the freaking Hometown Date Rose! how could be so cold at the AFTR? How could you? I was surprised you were indifferent. Where is the Andi I loved?  I'm sorry for my mistake. I should have said it differently. I was so shocked I was a loss for words. And those were words unfortunately that came out. I did not mean to hurt you. Really. I want to apologize for that mistake. I was just surprised by your demeanor. No, no, I'm not blaming you. I'm surprised that's all. I thank Sean for allowing me his space as my platform to apologize. I truly did not mean to hurt you. I'm urging my supporters not bash you. I'm sure after that what I said in my blog post no one will bash you. I really mean it when I say I wish you and Josh happiness. The blog post is my way of apologizing for my mistakes. I'm sorry for the slip up, Andi. I honestly would not have said that if only you did not have sex with me if you did not share my feelings. My blog post is a way of sharing my perspective especially the next Lead to not have sex if you are not sure of what you feel. My blog post is saying you should not have done that in the FS if we are not in the same page. The blog post is an apology and an explanation. I'm sorry I did not mean to hurt you but you see the FS is for those who love each other. So I'm sorry. I have not slipped up if you were not cold at the AFTR. Cross my heart. And I was so brokenhearted because you had sex with me when it meant nothing to you. You had sex with me when you are going to be engaged with another man days after. Do not mind what others would say about you. I made it clear in my blog post. They will not bash you. Again, I am truly sorry. I really wish you and Josh well. I'm sure with the blog post I cleared my side am sure you and Josh would understand, he's a great guy and I know we would be friends again someday. Once again, Andi I am sorry. If I could turn back the hands of time. I really did not mean it. Im moving on and learned from my mistakes. I wish you and Josh happiness.

----

Perfectly clear. Right from the beginning it is MeAndi's fault. Right from. JuanPab's season we've seen her true colors. This would have not happened if Andi did exactly what Nick was advicing in the blog post.

Andi, whatever people think of you now is because you were inconsiderate, unkind and unforgiving. Suck it up, Meandi! And if you react with Nick's post, will only confirm what a horrible person you really are.

NOT.

     Well said!

     

PERFECT.

I don't think it's mocking other posters, it's mocking Nick. He's an entire tool shed and this is right on the money. JMO.

Bet2Win, Josh and Andi have both said that Andi tells him everything and goes to to him with everything, so take from that what you will.

Exactly! Which is allowed in this thread.

Love your post Cari.

[sbolduc]

Just wanted to say I have been catching up on all these posts (THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM), and I thought it would be a quiet day.

I think that everyone, on both sides has extremely compelling, intelligent and supported arguments, and to be honest this whole discussion to me is extremely refreshing. Usually watching a show like this requires little thought process or second thinking, it very rarely (if ever) challenges me on the way I view things or people.

I know people are not happy with the fact that Nick called out Andi, and I totally get that, not here to argue with that. However, I do appreciate the conversations and discussions it has prompted us all to have. A lot of times on this board (myself included) we passionately argue and question over very small insignificant events or moments or characters on this silly show, that really in the grand scheme of anything mean absolutely nothing.

This question however, is of a different kind, its pretty monumental in terms of the progress of this show. To me this is the first time this show (largely due to the posters on this board and other blogs I have read) has challenged my thoughts on this subject, and to be honest it is extremely refreshing. This is not a black and white issue, I do not believe there is a right side to this. Even reading some posters opinions, I have the same opinions as you on all sides, but we fall on different sides of the fence because one side of our argument is out-weighing the other side.

I stopped associating this issue to Andi/Nick/Josh shortly after the ATFR, this blog or any of the other interviews in regards to this issue have not changed or even slightly altered my opinion of any of them. Because, you know what, I don't know them, and I am not going to pretend I do, so I do not believe I am in a position to judge any of them.

But what this one question has done is it has raised questions on sex in our culture, it questions the difference between being a physical act and an expression of love, it questions both male and female stereotypes, the definition of s!ut slaming and the harm is it to our society and it challenges the taboo of sex within the confines of network television.

[soccermom333]

This is the general discussion thread. Isn't a free for all for the said named discussion thread? We can call him an idiot or what have ya? Anybody can bash and hate on him on this thread, right?

However, it is also a free for all: anybody has the right to defend NickIt is free for all for Andi and Josh, too. They can be called cold hearted b*tch,  Josh dumb. Anybody has that right to call them names perhaps in the process of defending Nick.

Likewise, it wouldn't be a surprise, too. If someone comes to the defense when Andi (or Josh by extension) is hated on or bashed.  If anybody calls Nick stalker or serial killer on this thread as a result, it anybody's right to defend Andi. And the vicious cycle goes on. Nick will be defended. Andi bashed. Andi defended. Nick bashed. Hence, my uber lengthy sleepy "Nick letter" is mocking (criticizing his blog post) Nick and in the process defending Andi.

Eta:

I dint know Nick and family is going thru a tough time. My timing sucks.   

It is funny how the discussion threads have become "defending" threads. But.... totally everyone's right. I still believe Nick has the right to say what he wants (I might not agree) and Andi, josh and members of this board have the right to voice their opinions.

IMO Nick is hurting and maybe is a little angry still.... right or wrong does not matter, it is just how he feels. I do believe he needs his family and friends more than ever now, and I bet they are there for him. At least I hope so. It might seem like he is dragging this on to some but we can't judge because everyone grieves in their own way. I am trying to have compassion.

What I do find baffling is he maybe spent a total of 24 hours with Andi and it has been 3 months since the finale.    Like I said, can't judge but gives me pause for sure.

At first, I was thinking he just wanted to extend his 15 minutes but now I am thinking he just felt the need to defend himself with all the negativity surrounding him and his decision to "out" Andi. I think he even might be feeling a little guilty which, as we all know, is just anger directed at yourself.  

I tend to believe that by keeping it in the public eye, or ears, that it brings even more bad feelings. I bet there are friends or family members who are telling him this and helping him to get back to "real life." I only hope.   

[GrahamGal]

I'm trying to see where that fits in a Nick discussion thread. Maybe an Andi discussion thread? I agree with Bet that it seems to be mocking other posters but guess that's subjective. That's the way it came across to me.

I'm sure I missed all the discussion and am not going back to find them so will say that I thought Nick's piece was well said and if Andi doesn't like it - too bad.

The post and the responses may clarify why some of us see hate and bashing.  Many prayers for the Vialls who are made fun of in that post, as they deal with the illness and imminent lost of their brother and uncle.

I will keep the Vialls in my prayers. Not a Nick fan, but don't wish him any ill will.

[stuckinsc]

Just wanted to say I have been catching up on all these posts (THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM), and I thought it would be a quiet day.

I think that everyone, on both sides has extremely compelling, intelligent and supported arguments, and to be honest this whole discussion to me is extremely refreshing. Usually watching a show like this requires little thought process or second thinking, it very rarely (if ever) challenges me on the way I view things or people.

I know people are not happy with the fact that Nick called out Andi, and I totally get that, not here to argue with that. However, I do appreciate the conversations and discussions it has prompted us all to have. A lot of times on this board (myself included) we passionately argue and question over very small insignificant events or moments or characters on this silly show, that really in the grand scheme of anything mean absolutely nothing.

This question however, is of a different kind, its pretty monumental in terms of the progress of this show. To me this is the first time this show (largely due to the posters on this board and other blogs I have read) has challenged my thoughts on this subject, and to be honest it is extremely refreshing. This is not a black and white issue, I do not believe there is a right side to this. Even reading some posters opinions, I have the same opinions as you on all sides, but we fall on different sides of the fence because one side of our argument is out-weighing the other side.

I stopped associating this issue to Andi/Nick/Josh shortly after the ATFR, this blog or any of the other interviews in regards to this issue have not changed or even slightly altered my opinion of any of them. Because, you know what, I don't know them, and I am not going to pretend I do, so I do not believe I am in a position to judge any of them.

But what this one question has done is it has raised questions on sex in our culture, it questions the difference between being a physical act and an expression of love, it questions both male and female stereotypes, the definition of s!ut slaming and the harm is it to our society and it challenges the taboo of sex within the confines of network television.

   

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