Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #6

[Catdwoman50]

Just wanted to say I have been catching up on all these posts (THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM), and I thought it would be a quiet day.

I think that everyone, on both sides has extremely compelling, intelligent and supported arguments, and to be honest this whole discussion to me is extremely refreshing. Usually watching a show like this requires little thought process or second thinking, it very rarely (if ever) challenges me on the way I view things or people.

I know people are not happy with the fact that Nick called out Andi, and I totally get that, not here to argue with that. However, I do appreciate the conversations and discussions it has prompted us all to have. A lot of times on this board (myself included) we passionately argue and question over very small insignificant events or moments or characters on this silly show, that really in the grand scheme of anything mean absolutely nothing.

This question however, is of a different kind, its pretty monumental in terms of the progress of this show. To me this is the first time this show (largely due to the posters on this board and other blogs I have read) has challenged my thoughts on this subject, and to be honest it is extremely refreshing. This is not a black and white issue, I do not believe there is a right side to this. Even reading some posters opinions, I have the same opinions as you on all sides, but we fall on different sides of the fence because one side of our argument is out-weighing the other side.

I stopped associating this issue to Andi/Nick/Josh shortly after the ATFR, this blog or any of the other interviews in regards to this issue have not changed or even slightly altered my opinion of any of them. Because, you know what, I don't know them, and I am not going to pretend I do, so I do not believe I am in a position to judge any of them.

But what this one question has done is it has raised questions on sex in our culture, it questions the difference between being a physical act and an expression of love, it questions both male and female stereotypes, the definition of s!ut slaming and the harm is it to our society and it challenges the taboo of sex within the confines of network television.

Thank you. I need to get back on this platform and mindset.

[Guest]

I read Nick's behavior on the ATFR (2 months after being dumped) as quietly calculated, playing a part and determined to get his own back on Andi for hurting him.  I think he had already told TPTB that he wanted to call her out on TV for the intimacy thing.  He seemed to be working himself up to say it (and only did so once she said cared for Josh more) and was asked repeatedly by Chris [if] he had something he wanted to say.  No respect coming his way from me.  I think that guys' impressions of him during the show were spot on:  Calculating and game playing.  JMO.

I read Nick the same way. He hesitated too long to get out the words he said for me to really buy into the explanation that he just blurted it out. I believe he thought about it ahead of time and took enough time to have thought about it at the moment.

I also believe that the producers deserve the lion's share of the blame here; they will stop at nothing to get dramatic endings and if Nick had ever indicated to them that he might ask that question of Andi he got nothing but encouragement from the producers to actually do so and CH looks suspiciously like an instigator here.

None of which excuses nor is justification for ungentlemanly behavior, IMHO.

i totally think nick was playing a role at the ATFR. i have a hard time believing he was really broken up over andi for 2 1/2 months after knowing her for such a short time. he messed up with the plane video and had to pay for it with carrying on the charade of the ex pining for andi and trying to get in touch with her. i will give him the benefit of the doubt and believe him that he didn't plan on letting slip what he did about the FS. i think it was a terrible thing to do but i think it was an error of judgment in the moment rather than something calculated. i also don't think CH had anything to do with it and nick said as much. when they panned to CH right before they cut to commercial he looked quite uncomfortable and totally caught off guard to me. he didn't even address it in his blog which again tells me he just didn't even want to go there. nick was hurt and angry and he lashed out, but i think they are all moving on as best as they can. andi and josh seem over the moon happy together. no one is perfect and they all could have handled things better. jmo.

eta: just saw nick's post on sean's blog. it doesn't change much in my view. anyone who goes on this show takes a huge risk and signs away their rights and can be humiliated on national tv. i sure wouldn't do that personally. no one on this show is in love–they are in infatuation and lust–but some play along with the fiction of the show. that is why we call it "bubble love" because we know it isn't real. the relationships start after the show ends. a few of the couples do find real love when it is over but i think it's in spite of the show and not because of it.

[happygolucky]

 gabriele ... I like your thoughts ...
even tho' I do believe that Nick has been genuine, real and true ... I also don't believe he was still broken up over Andi. But I do believe in his heartbreak ... when it happened ... and in his hurt feelings ... when he had to relive it all over again.
I believe his real heartbreak wasn't so much about Andi not choosing him, but all about the thought that he found a girl who he felt a great connection with [like he hasn't experienced before, so he thought that must be IT ... a girl to marry] and then realizing that it wasn't all real, that she didn't feel it [to the contrary of what she was saying in her PIs, ITMs, to him].
That was heartbreaking. To know that you've been played ...

So yeah, Kudos to Andi ... I applaud her for the game throughout the season ... and for being a great bachelorette, who got so many guys falling ...

but the end shows ... that she isn't that good of a player [I guess that much they have in common with Nick] ... because when the game is over ... a good player has to lay down the cards and at least acknowledge the hurt of their opponent [for the game, not all the rest that followed after] And if they don't feel sorry, don't ... no need to ... but I would care less about their gloating.

[Lucas15]

Let's face it, dumping Nick, picking someone else and deciding to get engaged to that person, and then turning Nick down the first time should have given him more than enough of a realization that she didn't want to be with him. If that wasn't enough, he should have realized it completely the second time he tried to speak with her after filming had ended.  

Deviating from the sex topic, I think it's so interesting that Nick said he watched the entire show, which I assume means her relationships with the other men too, including Josh, and still didn't "get it." Even Andi said she hoped watching the show would help give him closure if he saw her relationship with Josh but apparently that wasn't the case.

But, the first time they showed her relationship with Josh without huge doubt was maybe Brussels, in the night portion when she finally got her FILY, HTDs got much better, but according most I have heard here, she didn't truly know it was Josh until F3 FDs, so that would be before the MTA was even taped.  Not her fault, but the edit showed her doubting Josh until the FS.

I would agree that Nick should have gotten the message when "Andi wouldn't meet with him" regardless of how many times that happened. But I put the quotes around "Andi wouldn't meet with him" for a good reason. Nick never had direct contact with Andi - only through the show because the contract they both signed forbids contact unless the show requests it. By the time Nick wanted to contact Andi I think he had gotten a crash course in Contract Law 101 (over his breach of his contract arising from the plane videos) and Andi didn't need that - she studied contract law at Wake Forest. Now I do believe the show passed Nick's request on to Andi and she said "No" and the show passed that back to Nick so he sees Andi as the one responsible and in a sense she is. But had she agreed to a meeting it would have been filmed - I believe that with a million percent certainty - and had Andi agreed to a meeting it would have served to encourage Nick in his belief that she had made a mistake and was going to change her mind and that would have been a major case of leading him on. I think Andi made the best decision she could in a situation without any really good options: don't meet, don't provide false encouragement, wait until the ATFR when a meeting was certain anyway and hope that Nick would better understand (after watching the entire show) why she did what she did.

That's a very plausible hope but in this case it simply didn't pan out, probably for a couple of reasons:

One is that she show was edited (as it always is) to create doubt up to the very end and presents a plausible choice between two finalists. I don't have to go back very deep into the posts here to see that a number of people saw a love story between Nick and Andi and others saw it between Josh and Andi so the editors this season did their job well. It was only the very last week of episodes and previews where more and more posters here began to see things that made them begin to realize that Andi had really picked Josh not Nick. Nick would not have even been able to watch those episodes until the live ATFR. If we were fooled by what we saw isn't it logical that Nick was fooled by what he saw?

Secondly all of us have a "filter" between what we watch and what we "see". As Nick would watch the show he would see things that he wanted to see and filter things that didn't fit into what he believed. The same would be true for Josh as Josh would watch, and also for Andi as she would watch. The more we believe in something the stronger our filters are to ignore what doesn't support what we believe and only "see" what confirms our beliefs. Even if the edit had clearly pointed to Josh it's doubtful that Nick would have actually seen it that way because he was so convinced it was him and he never left room in his own mind for a doubt.

I know I've posted this before, but Nick is a good debater and a tough guy to argue with because instead of sticking to the discussion of an issue on its merits, he changes the discussion into an attack on his opponent. He did that when Andi first broke up with him in the DR and he did the same thing again on the ATFR when he asked "the question". Nick isn't going to get closure until he stops arguing and trying to make his case through an attack and starts listening and trying to understand.

I don't believe he's there yet.

[Kashathediva]

Just wanted to say I have been catching up on all these posts (THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM), and I thought it would be a quiet day.

I think that everyone, on both sides has extremely compelling, intelligent and supported arguments, and to be honest this whole discussion to me is extremely refreshing. Usually watching a show like this requires little thought process or second thinking, it very rarely (if ever) challenges me on the way I view things or people.

I know people are not happy with the fact that Nick called out Andi, and I totally get that, not here to argue with that. However, I do appreciate the conversations and discussions it has prompted us all to have. A lot of times on this board (myself included) we passionately argue and question over very small insignificant events or moments or characters on this silly show, that really in the grand scheme of anything mean absolutely nothing.

This question however, is of a different kind, its pretty monumental in terms of the progress of this show. To me this is the first time this show (largely due to the posters on this board and other blogs I have read) has challenged my thoughts on this subject, and to be honest it is extremely refreshing. This is not a black and white issue, I do not believe there is a right side to this. Even reading some posters opinions, I have the same opinions as you on all sides, but we fall on different sides of the fence because one side of our argument is out-weighing the other side.

I stopped associating this issue to Andi/Nick/Josh shortly after the ATFR, this blog or any of the other interviews in regards to this issue have not changed or even slightly altered my opinion of any of them. Because, you know what, I don't know them, and I am not going to pretend I do, so I do not believe I am in a position to judge any of them.

But what this one question has done is it has raised questions on sex in our culture, it questions the difference between being a physical act and an expression of love, it questions both male and female stereotypes, the definition of s!ut slaming and the harm is it to our society and it challenges the taboo of sex within the confines of network television.

Very refreshing to wake up to, thanks!

As always, I bolded my favs!

And now onto a cup of coffee! BTW--I take my coffee black.

[Guest]

So when did Andi lie? When she said, I never loved you to Nick? When she said to Josh you were always the one? Or when she said she was conflicted until FS in one of her interviews? It's just confusing to some of us who can't excuse her anymore.

What's confusing about it? She explained her words. She knew from the moment she met Josh there was something there, but she was scared and worried that it was too good to be true. She said she knew for certain it was Josh after the FS. In another interview she said looking back on the feeling she had for him the moment he stepped out of the limo was essentially like love at first sight or knowing he would be the one, but she was just too blind or scared to allow her to feel that and she didn't come to terms with those feelings until the FS. According to her and Nick too, Andi never said she loved Nick.

What's confusing to me is, she very well knew it was Josh. He told her and showed her many ways that he wanted her. She knew who he was going into this. I would be surprised if she didn't google him after she saw him at the club.

Even if she wasn't sure until his FS, what's the reasoning for being intimate with Nick? Just in case Josh bolts, I'm going to have sex with Nick? Just in case Josh isn't who he says he is I'm going to have sex with Nick. I'm not in love with him but I'll have sex with him. This doesn't make sense to me. She says post show, she wouldn't be engaged if Josh wasn't on the show, which clearly proves she knew Nick wasn't the F1. He clearly told her how he felt, and what this meant to him, she knew without a doubt, he was not the F1 and choose to do the deed.

To be intimate, knowing all along Nick was not the F1, and showing no respect for Josh who she still had to have a FD with is confusing to me.

I'm glad Sean gave him the opportunity to post his thoughts on men's feelings, that's what this is all about. The understanding that not only men take advantage of women, but women take advantage of men as well.

Just catching up:  

GA, I dont think she knew it was going to be Josh until after the FS w. him. .  She always knew something was there w. Josh but she was soo scared and  did everything possible for it to be Nick (including sleeping w.him).  I hate that she slept w. Nick and I'm sure she regrets it now but we saw Andi doubting over analyzing everything Josh did or say throughout the entire process.  I truly believe there were times in her head (before the FS w.NicK) when she thought Nick was going to be the F1.   It was a Josh vs. Nick race the whole time.   I think FS dates changed her perspective on both guys.

[Guest]

This is a fictitious story by Cari and her opinions only.

It is ALL your fault, Andi. Right from Juan Pab's season you've shown you are a coldhearted b*tch! You were unlike any other lead, you ALONE led on your F2. How could you?! You had meaningless sex with me when you knew all along I love you? You know how know how special sex is to me? You knew that in the FS, I would not make love to you If I knew days after you were choosing Josh who is a great guy by the way! The only reason I attempted a few times to contact you is for me to have closure. You see, I do not understand. I thought you loved me?! You made me feel very special. I knew you could not say I love you back or "I'll marry you" but how could you give me the Hometown date rose when I thought you gave me that important rose to express you love me back? How could you? You did not specifically say why you did not choose me at the morning of the FRC. I had to know whyyyyy. So I had to. I had to call Chris if I can contact you. I had to know whyyyyy. I need closure. I had to. Because have to move on. I cannot. First, i had to know whyyyy. I learned you were in Mexico with Josh who is a great guy by the way. But I'm not sure if you're happy with him because I cannot forget what we had. It was special. You made me very special. You made me feel very loved. So... I had to know whyyyy. Watching the episodes they made me a villain. My family is angry. I really did not say those things. I had to. They made me do it. It is just editing, Andi. I know in my heart you do not believe I was a villain they made me to be. Because we are so connected. We get each other. We are each other's half. I do not understand whyyyyy. So I had to go to the MTA. I had to. I want to know whyyyyyy you did not choose me. I cannot wait for the AFTR. But I do not understand why you don't want to. You told Ali I did not try to contact you. I did. I had to know whyyyy. I know Josh would not mind because he's a great guy. You read my letter. Dint you remember the special time we had when you read that letter? Yes I hoped a little. Because I'm not sure if you are happy with Josh who am sure dint mind that letter. Surely he did not because he is a great guy. He did understand, right? I am certain you understood where I was coming from. What we had was special. I felt your love. That is why I.NEED.TO.KNOW.WHYYYY. That is not creepy at all because I know you understood. You get me. I know you understood why I need closure before the AFTR. I need to know as soon as possible so I can finally move on. And yet, what happened?! Why were you so cold in the AFTR as if we had nothing special. How could you tell me you never loved me? Whyyyyy. You gave me the Hometown Date Rose which I felt is your way of saying I love you back! Whyyyyy. You should have not given me that rose. How could you? We made sweetest love in the FS. You knew how I felt? I thought you loved me? Then you say you never loved me? You made me very, very special. You gave me the freaking Hometown Date Rose! how could be so cold at the AFTR? How could you? I was surprised you were indifferent. Where is the Andi I loved?  I'm sorry for my mistake. I should have said it differently. I was so shocked I was a loss for words. And those were words unfortunately that came out. I did not mean to hurt you. Really. I want to apologize for that mistake. I was just surprised by your demeanor. No, no, I'm not blaming you. I'm surprised that's all. I thank Sean for allowing me his space as my platform to apologize. I truly did not mean to hurt you. I'm urging my supporters not bash you. I'm sure after that what I said in my blog post no one will bash you. I really mean it when I say I wish you and Josh happiness. The blog post is my way of apologizing for my mistakes. I'm sorry for the slip up, Andi. I honestly would not have said that if only you did not have sex with me if you did not share my feelings. My blog post is a way of sharing my perspective especially the next Lead to not have sex if you are not sure of what you feel. My blog post is saying you should not have done that in the FS if we are not in the same page. The blog post is an apology and an explanation. I'm sorry I did not mean to hurt you but you see the FS is for those who love each other. So I'm sorry. I have not slipped up if you were not cold at the AFTR. Cross my heart. And I was so brokenhearted because you had sex with me when it meant nothing to you. You had sex with me when you are going to be engaged with another man days after. Do not mind what others would say about you. I made it clear in my blog post. They will not bash you. Again, I am truly sorry. I really wish you and Josh well. I'm sure with the blog post I cleared my side am sure you and Josh would understand, he's a great guy and I know we would be friends again someday. Once again, Andi I am sorry. If I could turn back the hands of time. I really did not mean it. Im moving on and learned from my mistakes. I wish you and Josh happiness.

----

Perfectly clear. Right from the beginning it is MeAndi's fault. Right from. JuanPab's season we've seen her true colors. This would have not happened if Andi did exactly what Nick was advicing in the blog post.

Andi, whatever people think of you now is because you were inconsiderate, unkind and unforgiving. Suck it up, Meandi! And if you react with Nick's post, will only confirm what a horrible person you really are.

NOT.

This is brilliant Cari!! Great post!! 

[soccermom333]

What's confusing about it? She explained her words. She knew from the moment she met Josh there was something there, but she was scared and worried that it was too good to be true. She said she knew for certain it was Josh after the FS. In another interview she said looking back on the feeling she had for him the moment he stepped out of the limo was essentially like love at first sight or knowing he would be the one, but she was just too blind or scared to allow her to feel that and she didn't come to terms with those feelings until the FS. According to her and Nick too, Andi never said she loved Nick.

What's confusing to me is, she very well knew it was Josh. He told her and showed her many ways that he wanted her. She knew who he was going into this. I would be surprised if she didn't google him after she saw him at the club.

Even if she wasn't sure until his FS, what's the reasoning for being intimate with Nick? Just in case Josh bolts, I'm going to have sex with Nick? Just in case Josh isn't who he says he is I'm going to have sex with Nick. I'm not in love with him but I'll have sex with him. This doesn't make sense to me. She says post show, she wouldn't be engaged if Josh wasn't on the show, which clearly proves she knew Nick wasn't the F1. He clearly told her how he felt, and what this meant to him, she knew without a doubt, he was not the F1 and choose to do the deed.

To be intimate, knowing all along Nick was not the F1, and showing no respect for Josh who she still had to have a FD with is confusing to me.

I'm glad Sean gave him the opportunity to post his thoughts on men's feelings, that's what this is all about. The understanding that not only men take advantage of women, but women take advantage of men as well.

Just catching up:  

GA, I dont think she knew it was going to be Josh until after the FS w. him. .  She always knew something was there w. Josh but she was soo scared and  did everything possible for it to be Nick (including sleeping w.him).  I hate that she slept w. Nick and I'm sure she regrets it now but we saw Andi doubting over analyzing everything Josh did or say throughout the entire process.  I truly believe there were times in her head (before the FS w.NicK) when she thought Nick was going to be the F1.   It was a Josh vs. Nick race the whole time.   I think FS dates changed her perspective on both guys.

Great post steel and I agree! I think this is exactly how it went down. Fast forward to real life time and andi is 100% confident and extremely happy with her decision.     :cutesmile!: 

[GuardianAngel]

SNIPPED....

Perfectly clear. Right from the beginning it is MeAndi's fault. Right from. JuanPab's season we've seen her true colors. This would have not happened if Andi did exactly what Nick was advicing in the blog post.

Andi, whatever people think of you now is because you were inconsiderate, unkind and unforgiving. Suck it up, Meandi! And if you react with Nick's post, will only confirm what a horrible person you really are.

NOT..

YES

This is the general discussion thread. Isn't a free for all for the said named discussion thread? We can call him an idiot or what have ya? Anybody can bash and hate on him on this thread, right?

However, it is also a free for all: anybody has the right to defend NickIt is free for all for Andi and Josh, too. They can be called cold hearted b*tch,  Josh dumb. Anybody has that right to call them names perhaps in the process of defending Nick.

Likewise, it wouldn't be a surprise, too. If someone comes to the defense when Andi (or Josh by extension) is hated on or bashed.  If anybody calls Nick stalker or serial killer on this thread as a result, it anybody's right to defend Andi. And the vicious cycle goes on. Nick will be defended. Andi bashed. Andi defended. Nick bashed. Hence, my uber lengthy sleepy "Nick letter" is mocking (criticizing his blog post) Nick and in the process defending Andi.

Yes it is a general discussion thread where opinions are welcome. It is not a forum to ridicule other posters opinions which perhaps you didn't intend to but it certainly appears that way when I read it because a lot of the content consisted of opinions that were posted by other members. Perhaps that's why it sounding like mocking. I have edited it to include that it is a fictitious creation by you and your opinions only to avoid any confusion.

IA anyone can come to any one of these contestants defence respecting other's opinions. If I were to prepare the same fictitious story from Andi's point of view it wouldn't be pretty.  

[luvlady345]

I don't get it, I am not a MOD but I am confuse how anyone can feel Cari post was mocking anyone, it doesn't matter forget it......

[Cari]

This is the general discussion thread. Isn't a free for all for the said named discussion thread? We can call him an idiot or what have ya? Anybody can bash and hate on him on this thread, right?

However, it is also a free for all: anybody has the right to defend NickIt is free for all for Andi and Josh, too. They can be called cold hearted b*tch,  Josh dumb. Anybody has that right to call them names perhaps in the process of defending Nick.

Likewise, it wouldn't be a surprise, too. If someone comes to the defense when Andi (or Josh by extension) is hated on or bashed.  If anybody calls Nick stalker or serial killer on this thread as a result, it anybody's right to defend Andi. And the vicious cycle goes on. Nick will be defended. Andi bashed. Andi defended. Nick bashed. Hence, my uber lengthy sleepy "Nick letter" is mocking (criticizing his blog post) Nick and in the process defending Andi.

Yes it is a general discussion thread where opinions are welcome. It is not a forum to ridicule other posters opinions which perhaps you didn't intend to but it certainly appears that way when I read it because a lot of the content consisted of opinions that were posted by other members. Perhaps that's why it sounding like mocking. I have edited it to include that it is a fictitious creation by you and your opinions only to avoid any confusion.

IA anyone can come to any one of these contestants defence respecting other's opinions. If I were to prepare the same fictitious story from Andi's point of view it wouldn't be pretty.  

Thank you, dear Guardian Angel!   

And if you do write a ficititious story, i would not think you are mocking me even if you included all my opinion in it. Because in my perspective and how i understood what this thread is about, you are just defending your stand as against my opinion. I would not take it personally because i know what you are actually negating is my opinion. Not my person.    I've seen a going back and forth discussion where one raises an issue against Nick example, "He is a calculating spoiled brat!" then a Nick defender may say "because Andi is stone cold, narcissistic Diva!". A neverending retort. When one "argues" with me, i dont take it personally. I know he/she is not attacking me. Probably just making her point emphatically but all good. haha ive seen it many times. different camps now, same camp next season. and because y'all mods are doing a great job, i haven't seen any poster using those same phrases thrown to another! Thank God! haha

[GuardianAngel]

Thank you, dear Guardian Angel!   

And if you do write a ficititious story, i would not think you are mocking me even if you included all my opinion in it. Because in my perspective and how i understood what this thread is about, you are just defending your stand as against my opinion. I would not take it personally because i know what you are actually negating is my opinion. Not my person.    I've seen a going back and forth discussion where one raises an issue against Nick example, "He is a calculating spoiled brat!" then a Nick defender may say "because Andi is stone cold, narcissistic Diva!". A neverending retort. When one "argues" with me, i dont take it personally. I know he/she is not attacking me. Probably just making her point emphatically but all good. haha ive seen it many times. different camps now, same camp next season. and because y'all mods are doing a great job, i haven't seen any poster using those same phrases thrown to another! Thank God! haha

Awesome response!   

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