Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #6

[Catdwoman50]

If Nick didn't mention that they slept together on national television, no one would be referring to Andi with some of these awful terms. There's a cause and an effect to everything. Andi and Nick chose to have sex, but it was a private matter. Nick chose to take it public and therefore a lot of hate got thrown onto Andi because of a decision Nick made and I guess you could say Andi too, but regardless, Nick shares some of the blame to the fallout that happened because of his choices.

Well, it could also be said that if Andi had decided to wait until she knew who she wanted to be with to have sex and Sean and Charlie and Byron all did then Nick would not have been able to say anything either.

Both had a hand in this.  Both made a poor choice.  But the blame is completely on Nick?  Andi chose to have sex then not show any compassion to the person she had sex with.  Did he give her reason to be upset?  Yes. Did she give him reason to feel upset and led on?  Yes.  Both are to blame for this.  It isn't all Nick's fault and it isn't all Andi's.  They both contributed to this mess.

I do agree with this, but like I've stated continuously, it would not have gone public if Nick didn't say they had sex.

I disagree, there are several actions Andi could have taken for this to not come to light: 1) not sleep with Nick, 2) talked to him prior to ATFR, or 3) acknowledge her feelings for him but more for Josh during AFTR, or a different POV on sex, or 4) be patronizing Andi (act one more time and pretend to have compassion) iMO

[Ash2214]

Really? The minute Andi accepted $$$ to become the Bachelorette, date multiple guys on television and fool viewers (not to mention her suitors) into thinking that she was falling in love with more than one man, is the minute that her every action became very public.

Why is it okay to comment and have snarky opinions on every little thing about this show but not okay to comment and have opinions about what went on in the FD?

And, keep in mind that ANDI WENT THERE FIRST. She made it very public what happened with her and Juan Pablo during the Fantasy Suite date. She told all the world what an a$$hole and jerk he was. You can't have it both ways!

Andi and Nick had sex in a private suite. No one else was around. No cameras. No crew. They could do whatever the heck they wanted to (clearly they did). What they did was in private. Sex should be a private thing. The deed was done in private. Do you happen to know if anyone was watching them or was in the room with them? If not, the act was done in private, but at the end of the day, Nick made it public.

Don't forget Andi told everyone on national tv that JPG talked about having sex with Clare in the fantasy suite.  She did to Clare what you all are hating Nick for doing to her.

I don't recall Andi saying that? If I remember correctly, Andi stated that Juan Pablo already had his fantasy date with Clare. She didn't flat out say that Clare had sex with Juan Pablo.

[Ash2214]

No it was understood she was third down the totem pole.  Not the same.

Lindsay sure as heck didn't get any sort of closure, especially as he was breaking up with her. No matter what people thought he meant, Sean told her he loved her. She didn't try to get in touch with him after the show.

Still not the same.  First off sean didn't sleep with her.  Second breakups are personal, Nick's reaction should not have to be similar to Lindsay's in order for it to be acceptable.

Sean might not have slept with her, but he did tell her he loved her. Andi and Nick have both stated that Andi never told Nick she loved him. For some people, sex is just sex. For others, it is about the love. Everyone has a different view on this and rightfully so, but trying to contact a woman who broke up with you and chose to get engaged with someone else is just a bit ridiculous. I can see trying to contact her once maybe, but the first time she said she didn't want to speak with him, he should have let it go.

The example with Lindsay is to show that someone like Nick who didn't get much closure, but she didn't go after Sean once the show was over. She had enough respect for both Sean and Catherine to respect their relationship.

[GuardianAngel]

Because he thought he was F1!!!!!!!!!!!

How could he think that when he was still having serious doubts up until the last day?  He clearly stated in his PI that he was not going to propose until he knew how she felt and that Josh was out of the picture.

So when did Andi lie? When she said, I never loved you to Nick? When she said to Josh you were always the one? Or when she said she was conflicted until FS in one of her interviews? It's just confusing to some of us who can't excuse her anymore.

What's confusing about it? She explained her words. She knew from the moment she met Josh there was something there, but she was scared and worried that it was too good to be true. She said she knew for certain it was Josh after the FS. In another interview she said looking back on the feeling she had for him the moment he stepped out of the limo was essentially like love at first sight or knowing he would be the one, but she was just too blind or scared to allow her to feel that and she didn't come to terms with those feelings until the FS. According to her and Nick too, Andi never said she loved Nick.

What's confusing to me is, she very well knew it was Josh. He told her and showed her many ways that he wanted her. She knew who he was going into this. I would be surprised if she didn't google him after she saw him at the club.

Even if she wasn't sure until his FS, what's the reasoning for being intimate with Nick? Just in case Josh bolts, I'm going to have sex with Nick? Just in case Josh isn't who he says he is I'm going to have sex with Nick. I'm not in love with him but I'll have sex with him. This doesn't make sense to me. She says post show, she wouldn't be engaged if Josh wasn't on the show, which clearly proves she knew Nick wasn't the F1. He clearly told her how he felt, and what this meant to him, she knew without a doubt, he was not the F1 and choose to do the deed.

To be intimate, knowing all along Nick was not the F1, and showing no respect for Josh who she still had to have a FD with is confusing to me.

I'm glad Sean gave him the opportunity to post his thoughts on men's feelings, that's what this is all about. The understanding that not only men take advantage of women, but women take advantage of men as well.

[stuckinsc]

Andi and Nick had sex in a private suite. No one else was around. No cameras. No crew. They could do whatever the heck they wanted to (clearly they did). What they did was in private. Sex should be a private thing. The deed was done in private. Do you happen to know if anyone was watching them or was in the room with them? If not, the act was done in private, but at the end of the day, Nick made it public.

Don't forget Andi told everyone on national tv that JPG talked about having sex with Clare in the fantasy suite.  She did to Clare what you all are hating Nick for doing to her.

I don't recall Andi saying that? If I remember correctly, Andi stated that Juan Pablo already had his fantasy date with Clare. She didn't flat out say that Clare had sex with Juan Pablo.

She said that JPG told her about being intimate with Clare.

You and I just disagree. Nick and Andi both made mistakes. I don't love that Nick said what he did, but he brought up a reasonable point in general. You shouldn't have sex with someone you know has more feelings for you than you do for them. As I also already posted, I have actually had this discussion with another person who did this, just not on national tv, and told that guy that he was wrong.

If you know someone feels more for you than you do for them, then wait for sex. Andi did know that Nick loved her. She has said she did not love him. The feelings were not equal.

That to me is the point of Nick's blog and most of his post show commentary.

Again, I like that we discuss this. Because if you are willing to have sex then you should be mature and willing to deal with the feelings of your partner. I would expect this from a man or a woman.

To me both were wrong. Nick is no more wrong than Andi.

[MVMom39forever]

I spent more time than intended on this forum today but Nick's essay is certainly an important conversation starter. As the mother of a teenage boy who plays football and a very sweet teen girl, I literally feel sickened ever time I read yet another article about young male athletes or men taking advantage of women or forcing themselves upon drunk women without their consent. I wonder aloud what's wrong with these boys? Who is raising them? What's happening in society to make them think that it's okay?

That's why it is SO refreshing to read Nick's perspective and to drive home how important it is that both sides communicate, both sides respect the other person's position and ensure that both consenting parties are on same page. This is just the type of message that I want BOTH my children to hear. If TPTB are going to imply sex happens on FD, they should also be upfront about the consequences.

Excerpt from Nick's blog on Sean's site and on TIME ...

Whatever your beliefs about sex, we live in a very sexual world. To me what’s most important is that the two people involved have a clear understanding of what sex means to the other person. If the emotional attachment to sex isn’t equal, sex can be hurtful. Consequently, it should be treated with the greatest amount of respect.

Yes, both men and women need to respect it.

Sometimes people laugh off any emotional damage that sex can do to guys. The boys-will-be-boys mentality suggests the majority of men are really just looking to add another “notch on their belt.” Because of this unfair – inaccurate – stereotype, it’s often considered unmanly for a man to speak about the emotional repercussions of sex. But I’m here to attest that men fall in love just as hard as women do and that sex can be just as powerful to a man as it is to a woman.

Sex, when enjoyed in the right context, is a wonderful way to solidify a relationship. But when expectations aren’t the same for both partners, it can be devastating.

Let me say this: don’t shame Andi to support me. We all make mistakes, I’ve made mistakes. In a culture where sex has no bounds, it’s hard to figure out how to fit it into your life without hurting each other. That’s why it’s important to be sensitive to the emotional attachment that sex has to your potential partner and to treat it with the greatest amount of respect.



No one is going to convince me that Nick's words about communication and respect should remain private. Enjoy your evening ...



Link:
http://time.com/3089514/the-bachelorettes-nick-viall-why-i-brought-up-sex/

[Kashathediva]

So when did Andi lie? When she said, I never loved you to Nick? When she said to Josh you were always the one? Or when she said she was conflicted until FS in one of her interviews? It's just confusing to some of us who can't excuse her anymore.

What's confusing about it? She explained her words. She knew from the moment she met Josh there was something there, but she was scared and worried that it was too good to be true. She said she knew for certain it was Josh after the FS. In another interview she said looking back on the feeling she had for him the moment he stepped out of the limo was essentially like love at first sight or knowing he would be the one, but she was just too blind or scared to allow her to feel that and she didn't come to terms with those feelings until the FS. According to her and Nick too, Andi never said she loved Nick.

What's confusing to me is, she very well knew it was Josh. He told her and showed her many ways that he wanted her. She knew who he was going into this. I would be surprised if she didn't google him after she saw him at the club.

Even if she wasn't sure until his FS, what's the reasoning for being intimate with Nick? Just in case Josh bolts, I'm going to have sex with Nick? Just in case Josh isn't who he says he is I'm going to have sex with Nick. I'm not in love with him but I'll have sex with him. This doesn't make sense to me. She says post show, she wouldn't be engaged if Josh wasn't on the show, which clearly proves she knew Nick wasn't the F1. He clearly told her how he felt, and what this meant to him, she knew without a doubt, he was not the F1 and choose to do the deed.

To be intimate, knowing all along Nick was not the F1, and showing no respect for Josh who she still had to have a FD with is confusing to me.

I'm glad Sean gave him the opportunity to post his thoughts on men's feelings, that's what this is all about. The understanding that not only men take advantage of women, but women take advantage of men as well.

I love your way with words!   

[stuckinsc]

May I say that I think that some of who are so upset about this are most upset because they don't find Nick genuine. I understand and I don't think anything I say or post will change your mind. I don't agree, but I respect the right of everyone to have their own feelings and opinions.

As for sl** shaming, well to me those who feel it was this, maybe it is because you feel that if Andi did what Nick said she did and had sex with someone who she knew it meant more to than it did to her, then in that case you feel she is a sl**. And you like Andi so you don't want to feel that way. Okay, but that isn't Nick's fault.

I have no problem with Andi having sex. I do hope that if she and Josh don't work out that she learns that she should be on the same page emotionally with her sexual partners. It is a lesson that all should learn.

I don't hate Andi for what happened and I don't hate Nick either.

I do appreciate that we are having a reasonable educated discussion about what sex means.

It is so important and is something I wish that we as a society could talk about without anyone having to feel shame.

BTW, if I was single, I would totally have sex with Nick, since like Kasha I am not, I would consider the cuddle, but hubby might not like that either.    I wouldn't worry about Nick talking about it, because I would make sure that we both felt the same way about what we were doing first.

[Guest]

Well, it could also be said that if Andi had decided to wait until she knew who she wanted to be with to have sex and Sean and Charlie and Byron all did then Nick would not have been able to say anything either.

Both had a hand in this.  Both made a poor choice.  But the blame is completely on Nick?  Andi chose to have sex then not show any compassion to the person she had sex with.  Did he give her reason to be upset?  Yes. Did she give him reason to feel upset and led on?  Yes.  Both are to blame for this.  It isn't all Nick's fault and it isn't all Andi's.  They both contributed to this mess.

I do agree with this, but like I've stated continuously, it would not have gone public if Nick didn't say they had sex.

I disagree,  there are several actions Andi could have taken for this to not come to light: 1) not sleep with Nick, 2) talked to him prior to ATFR, or 3) acknowledge her feelings for him but more for Josh during AFTR, or a different POV on sex, or 4) be patronizing Andi (act one more time and pretend to have compassion) iMO

Well now I have to respectfully disagree with the bold part. 1: They were both in on it 2: She thought that when he saw the whole season he would have a better understanding. (As most of all the other runner-ups have had) Nick contacted ABC and they would never let this talk be in private. She waited until ATFR so that he would have seen all episodes. 3/4. She did say that they had a good relationship but the one she had with Josh was greater. She said she let him go early out of respect for him. What else was she supposed to do? It was CH who asked her if she ever was in love with Nick and she answered that she never was IN love. I think she had strong feelings but they didn't lead to IN love.

Andi had heard what Nick said on the plane, what he said about "the dog Murray", what he said in that extra segment when he delivered the letter..... before she got on stage. She knew that he had tried to meet her at several occasions. I wouldn't feel relaxed in that kind of situation.

I would have wished that ABC had hired a good therapist for him instead of encouraging his behavior just for ratings. He needed help and that was ABC's responsibility not Andi's. IMO

[Mustang19]

I have to agree that if making love was something so sacred to Nick, and understanding the format of the show, he should have just refused Andi's offer.  Wonder why he didn't.:-)

Because he thought he was F1!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not really taking sides in this, I think they both did things they shouldn't have - Nick speaking of their FS time on live TV and Andi for sleeping with Nick when she knew she was choosing Josh all while knowing how Nick felt about her. I don't think Nick's statements were planned. My feeling is that yes, Nick could have said no in the FS - assuming Andi was the one initiating, but Nick did say he told her many times he was in love with her, and if I recall, he said that Andi told him "everything will be ok". How else would someone take that after they have just expressed their love? I would take it as I am going to be F1.

[vivi2]

Lindsay sure as heck didn't get any sort of closure, especially as he was breaking up with her. No matter what people thought he meant, Sean told her he loved her. She didn't try to get in touch with him after the show.

Still not the same.  First off sean didn't sleep with her.  Second breakups are personal, Nick's reaction should not have to be similar to Lindsay's in order for it to be acceptable.

Sean might not have slept with her, but he did tell her he loved her. Andi and Nick have both stated that Andi never told Nick she loved him. For some people, sex is just sex. For others, it is about the love. Everyone has a different view on this and rightfully so, but trying to contact a woman who broke up with you and chose to get engaged with someone else is just a bit ridiculous. I can see trying to contact her once maybe, but the first time she said she didn't want to speak with him, he should have let it go.

The example with Lindsay is to show that someone like Nick who didn't get much closure, but she didn't go after Sean once the show was over. She had enough respect for both Sean and Catherine to respect their relationship.

I agree. Lindsay never said anything bad about Sean, because she really loved him. You don't hurt the person you love esp. on TV. I can't say the same thing about Ashlee or Nick.

[stuckinsc]

I do agree with this, but like I've stated continuously, it would not have gone public if Nick didn't say they had sex.

I disagree,  there are several actions Andi could have taken for this to not come to light: 1) not sleep with Nick, 2) talked to him prior to ATFR, or 3) acknowledge her feelings for him but more for Josh during AFTR, or a different POV on sex, or 4) be patronizing Andi (act one more time and pretend to have compassion) iMO

Well now I have to respectfully disagree with the bold part. 1: They were both in on it  2: She thought that when he saw the whole season he would have a better understanding. (As most of all the other runner-ups have had) Nick contacted ABC and they would never let this talk be in private. She waited until ATFR so that he would have seen all episodes. 3/4. She did say that they had a good relationship but the one she had with Josh was greater. She said she let him go early out of respect for him. What else was she supposed to do? It was CH who asked her if she ever was in love with Nick and she answered that she never was IN love. I think she had strong feelings but they didn't lead to IN love.

Andi had heard what Nick said on the plane, what he said about "the dog Murray", what he said in that extra segment when he delivered the letter..... before she got on stage. She knew that he had tried to meet her at several occasions. I wouldn't feel relaxed in that kind of situation.

I would have wished that ABC had hired a good therapist for him instead of encouraging his behavior just for ratings. He needed help and that was ABC's responsibility not Andi's. IMO

Just checking, did Andi not tell Ali this was not true?

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