Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #6

[stuckinsc]

^^I think there is a great debate in the media, here, etc. about whether it is slut shaming.  IMO it's not, but I'm a pretty hardcore feminist.

The fact that Nick questions "why sleep with me" and his fans are angry at Andi for "sleeping" with him when "she has already picked Josh" insinuate/question Andi's integrity. Come on, let's not talk semantics here. It's basically calling her a slut

and yet the questioning is not slut shaming?  Hmmm...

I think your definition of a slut and mine differ. I don't think questioning if she had feelings for him or not is calling her a slut.

I personally think a woman should have sex whenever she wants and that doesn't make her a slut.

But, should you have sex with someone who cares about you and has expressed that they have more feelings for you than you do for them? I don't think so. This is true if you are a man or a woman. Someone who has strong feelings is likely to interpret sex as love making, not just sex. When you aren't on equal ground, then it isn't right.

I have a good friend who is male. He is young, at the time he did this he was 23, but he had sex with a woman who had told him that she was falling for him and wanted a relationship with him. Now was he too young and unable to have the kind of relationship this woman (she was older than him but truthfully not much more emotionally mature) wanted with him? Yes, he was, but it was still a jerky move on his part to have sex with her when his feelings weren't the same. She got mad at him and followed him around for a couple of weekends at his bar scene and he complained that she was crazy. I told him then (in 2012) that she wasn't crazy. He mislead her when he had sex with her knowing she felt the way she did.

So no to me this isn't slut shaming. This is treating a woman the same way I have and would treat a man who did the same thing.

[Cecilia]

Nick has never called her a slut and I don't think he thinks she is one.  I don't think she is a slut.  I despise the word slut and wouldn't use it to describe any woman.  IMO it's a misogynistic term.  And Nick or I or other Nick fans aren't the one using it all over this board!

By Nick doing what he did, he opened up the doors for everyone else to call Andi one, which many people did. Andi and Nick had sex in private and Nick took it public and by doing so, he allowed Andi to be shamed. Simple as that in my opinion.

But if he were a she it would be different, no?

[MVMom39forever]

Here's the thing, in episode 7, Nick assumed what is Andi's feelings.

when Andi gives me the HTD rose, Nick said and I quote, "Andi's way of telling me that she loves me! ....She will pick me in the end"

Ergo, Nick in his perception at the FS (again!)   , that because Andi had sex with him is "Andi's way of telling me she loves me! That she picks me!" #Assumero  

You have to admit that Andi said during the date, in front of all the other guys, Andi said that this group date rose is the "most important rose" of the season. Nick had just had alone time with her a couple nights back and she was again giving him more along time by sending away her F3 guy plus two others. Andi then told Nick that she wanted him to be able to tell his mother that he got the FIR and the GDR. Why would she stress that would be important for Nick to be able to tell him mother?

And when she finally gets to meet his family at the HTD, Andi asked his 9 year old sister ... "would you like me as your sister at the end?"

So gee, give the guy a break if he made a few assumptions during the season with a woman who was not able to give away her ending yet encouraged him at every turn.

[Guest]

^^I think there is a great debate in the media, here, etc. about whether it is slut shaming.  IMO it's not, but I'm a pretty hardcore feminist.

The fact that Nick questions "why sleep with me" and his fans are angry at Andi for "sleeping" with him when "she has already picked Josh" insinuate/question Andi's integrity. Come on, let's not talk semantics here. It's basically calling her a slut

and yet the questioning is not slut shaming?  Hmmm...

I'm not angry that she slept with him.    I don't think Andi is a slut at all.  I just see his point.

Agreed with the last statement. I don't consider this whole incident to make Andi this word being used that I hate. But I do consider her sleeping with Nick while she needed 2 guys there for personal enjoyment and then turning ice cold on him as soon as she didn't need him there any more to be callous, unkind, uncaring, self-centred etc. There are many words for me for Andi and the way she handled this but all have to do with her lack of concern for another's feelings, another who she was close enough with to want to have sex with. That's the issue for me. She took her relationship with Nick to a more intimate level than him being a second place guy she made out with in front of cameras. She, in private, took it to another level where anyone in those shoes would assume this was a real relationship that went beyond the show, IMO. To so quickly turn off on him and dismiss him so unfeelingly after being intimate speaks a lot of her character and ability to truly care about others besides herself.

Not trying to be harsh, but I just think she acted like a cold, uncaring person to him when she didn't need him anymore. She did the exact same to JP. So I assume it's a pattern - you're useful to Andi, you're good with her, when you're not, watch out. I actually think Nick was right to call her out on that - maybe without turning the focus onto sex itself.

[Cecilia]

The fact that Nick questions "why sleep with me" and his fans are angry at Andi for "sleeping" with him when "she has already picked Josh" insinuate/question Andi's integrity. Come on, let's not talk semantics here. It's basically calling her a slut

and yet the questioning is not slut shaming?  Hmmm...

I'm not angry that she slept with him.    I don't think Andi is a slut at all.  I just see his point.

Agreed with the last statement.  I don't consider this whole incident to make Andi this word being used that I hate.  But I do consider her sleeping with Nick while she needed 2 guys there for personal enjoyment and then turning ice cold on him as soon as she didn't need him there any more to be callous, unkind, uncaring, self-centred etc.  There are many words for me for Andi and the way she handled this but all have to do with her lack of concern for another's feelings, another who she was close enough with to want to have sex with.  That's the issue for me.  She took her relationship with Nick to a more intimate level than him being a second place guy she made out with in front of cameras.  She, in private, took it to another level where anyone in those shoes would assume this was a real relationship that went beyond the show, IMO.  To so quickly turn off on him and dismiss him so unfeelingly after being intimate speaks a lot of her character and ability to truly care about others besides herself.

Not trying to be harsh, but I just think she acted like a cold, uncaring person to him when she didn't need him anymore.  She did the exact same to JP.  So I assume it's a pattern - you're useful to Andi, you're good with her, when you're not, watch out.  I actually think Nick was right to call her out on that - maybe without turning the focus onto sex itself.

Yes. She was cold (the opposite how he had ever seen her with him), he freaked out, was hurt, said what he felt at the moment. I think I just need to be done defending him and talking about it. Round and round in circles we go.

[Bet2Win]

I really don't understand how Nick questioning Andi's choice to sleep with him can be considered slut shaming.

Andi was upset with JPab for not getting to know her better in the FS. It was probably JPab's way to let her know she wasn't the final one.

Nick felt that Andi went too far in leading him on, knowing he was in love with her. Add to that, the conversation Andi had with his family how hard he took his prior break-up.

Instead of owning it at the ATFR, she deflected by telling him he hit below the belt. People say that Andi is taking the high road. The high road, imo, would have been to say she's sorry she hurt him.

[Ash2214]

Nick has never called her a slut and I don't think he thinks she is one.  I don't think she is a slut.  I despise the word slut and wouldn't use it to describe any woman.  IMO it's a misogynistic term.  And Nick or I or other Nick fans aren't the one using it all over this board!

By Nick doing what he did, he opened up the doors for everyone else to call Andi one, which many people did. Andi and Nick had sex in private and Nick took it public and by doing so, he allowed Andi to be shamed. Simple as that in my opinion.

But if he were a she it would be different, no?

Nope. Not in my opinion. If the roles were reversed I would be saying the same thing about Andi if she called out Nick. They're two adults and they both decided to have sex. What I don't agree with, whether it's a woman or a man, is telling millions of people that they did have sex. Private things should remain private, especially when it appears one person is doing something to hurt the other person involved.

[ironcat]

Again, this didn't happen in the real world but on a TV show where the lead is not allowed to share her true feelings with her suitors, so completely honest communication just doesn't happen, if Andi is following the rules of her contract.

[Guest]

I really don't understand how Nick questioning Andi's choice to sleep with him can be considered slut shaming.  

Andi was upset with JPab for not getting to know her better in the FS.  It was probably JPab's way to let her know she wasn't the final one.  

Nick felt that Andi went too far in leading him on, knowing he was in love with her.  Add to that, the conversation Andi had with his family how hard he took his prior break-up.  

Instead of owning it at the ATFR, she deflected by telling him he hit below the belt.  People say that Andi is taking the high road.  The high road, imo, would have been to say she's sorry she hurt him.  

  The bolded basically sums it up, doesn't it. Thanks for putting it so perfectly.

[Cari]

It doesn't matter how we view what "slut" means.

THE Effect remains.

Andi being called a slut on National TV.

On twitter and IG when Andi and Josh post a status or a pic, there are those who call her a slut for sleeping with Nick.

Or even posting on Nick's page supporting him and saying "you dodged a bullet, Andi is a slut anyway!"

Kudos to us in this forum who does not think Andi is a slut. We are classy people! *highfives everyone*

The fact remains, THE Effect = SLUT Calling *slash* Shaming.

[Kashathediva]

I really don't understand how Nick questioning Andi's choice to sleep with him can be considered slut shaming.  

Andi was upset with JPab for not getting to know her better in the FS.  It was probably JPab's way to let her know she wasn't the final one.  

Nick felt that Andi went too far in leading him on, knowing he was in love with her.  Add to that, the conversation Andi had with his family how hard he took his prior break-up.  

Instead of owning it at the ATFR, she deflected by telling him he hit below the belt.  People say that Andi is taking the high road.  The high road, imo, would have been to say she's sorry she hurt him.  

ITA.
Own up to your behavior and move on. That goes for anyone's behavior--mine--yours--Nick's, MenandI's. Part of being a mature adult is being able to own up to your behavior, apologize when necessary, forgive when necessary, because all of us want to be forgiven when it's our turn and finally--let go.
Personally, I try not to "insinuate", or "assume". Semantics can be very tricky under normal circumstances. This show almost makes it a joke. Mind games are not so much fun when they back fire.

[Kashathediva]

It doesn't matter how we view what "slut" means.

THE Effect remains.

Andi being called a slut on National TV.

On twitter and IG when Andi and Josh post a status or a pic, there are those who call her a slut for sleeping with Nick.

Or even posting on Nick's page supporting him and saying "you dodged a bullet, Andi is a slut anyway!"

Kudos to us in this forum who does not think Andi is a slut. We are classy people! *highfives everyone*

The fact remains, THE Effect = SLUT Calling *slash* Shaming.

I guess the only way to possibly be pro-active of the "effects" of this show is to make sure that your actions reflect the person you want to be shown as. If you err on the side of caution there is nothing to have to worry about ill side effects.

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