Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #6

[Kashathediva]

Thank god MeandI never found a grumpy cat in a pot!

[Sable]

People act like the RIGHT TO CLOSURE is in the friggin' Bill of Rights or something.

It makes me laugh.

Closure isn't something that the lead of the Bachelor/Bachelorette is required or should have to give to their F2, F3, F4, etc., but it certainly is the compassionate and sympathetic thing to do, especially considering that the vast majority of the leads have been a contestant on a previous show. So although the leads are not obligated to give closure to their contestants, it does make them look bad when they don't give it. In this case, I think Andi did a terrible job of giving Nick closure. She gave Cody and some of the other guys on the show more closure than Nick. Her inconsistency is baffling to me.

[Catdwoman50]

Surely y'all don't want me to copy and paste my answer upthread. I've already answered this. But perhaps it wasn't clear enough because of my too long a post. hahaha

I've been repetitive. Up until both the F2s' FS. Both are an even field. I sincerely believe, Andi was WW aka WishyWashy until the very end. Of course, Andi knew Nick was in love with her. She converted Nick from skeptic to a believer. Why would Andi be blamed if at the last minute she chose Josh over him? Again, the operative word is at the very end. I've been repetitive. Why insist Andi was just playing along. That she "used" Nick. She was cold hearted because she knew Nick was in love with her. Again, i ask. Because we're going around in circles. Obviously, y'all do not believe what she said in People's Magazine that it came down the wire. Should Andi settle for someone who has very strong feelings for her (as y'all has been insisting) OR should i should i choose someone BECAUSE i've stronger feelings for? Yes, whole season long. Nick was vulnerable. He put his heart out there. But that is the risk he's gonna take WHEN you sign up for this show. Anybody who will go on National TV to find love is in the risk of being vulnerable. Going "big" or "go home", as Nick would say. The problem with Nick was all season long, too, he did not give a space for doubt that he will not be picked. Come on. How many seasons have we discussed this! Confident F2 vs Uncertain F1. Ive been WW all season long. And this Confident F2 edit of Nick versus Uncertain F1 of Josh convinced me that Josh is F1.

Why do you think Ben F was furious? Is it possible he mirrors exactly what Nick and y'all feel? Led on. Blindsided. Coldhearted Ashley. But did Ben F slut shame Ashley? Did he out her?

There lieth the difference....

Cari this is where I will disagree with you girlfriend, coming from the spoiled side (in which I have been a staunch Andi supporter, not withstanding JPG edits, been a fan of Josh - totally my type, and been a Jodi fangirl, until HTD).  So I totally agree with you that Andi made the right choice.  Andi's motivations for her actions and decisions will be speculative - so I'm not going to go there.  I will say it again, Andi was never facilitating, placating, or patronizing around Josh - and she played those roles with all the others including Nick.  So I saw heartbreak coming for me by siding with Nick.  But there is a reason why I did and I am not going to defend that because I am trying to make a point.

I am a feminist so I totally agree that there is nothing wrong with sleeping with both men if that is one of the criteria for the F1. What is wrong, I believe is not owning it! After all is said and done she could have said, "yes Nick I did that because I did care for you and was conflicted till the end." Or "you know I just don't have the same feelings towards that act like you do, so I'm sorry I misled you."  Is it maturity, empathy, or compassion that was lacking, I won't pretend to know - whatever it is, in my lens it backfired on Andi.  What is worse is that AFTR was not the first time I've seen her do that - JPG (well that really doesn't count), Eric Hill, then Nick.  You would think she'd have enough distance from the Eric Hill episode to learn that "cold heartless bitch" persona does not win her any credits.  OK that said I don't think you have to defend Andi's relationship from me or the rest of Nick fans, we agree.  It's Andi's treatment of Nick (whether TPTB induced or not) that we tend to have a problem with.  Whereas some of us decry Nick's treatment during the show to be foul, I will maintain that Andi could have redeemed herself in my eyes at the ATFR, and that didn't happen and IMO exacerbated the situation.

That said, maybe you and I will be on the same side again next season.

[Cari]

^^^. Girlfriend Cat! *tacklehugs* yes! I absolutely understand the Nick fans for being angry for Andi's apathy AFTR.   I've written posts and posts of it of explaining the probable reason WHY Andi was Icy at the AFTR as well. We were going around in circles actually. (Not you!) Sadly, no one is buying it and somehow I understand. . If you care to read my kilometric posts upthread perhaps you'll understand (hopefully) where I'm coming from as well. If not, it does not matter because we're lifelong friends!!   

[umngirl]

The way I see it is quite simple. Andi was compassionate and nicer with the other break-ups and giving closure because she didn't have issues with those guys. By the time the ATFR rolled around, Nick had tried to contact her multiple times apparently, he wrote that letter, and made some unflattering comments about her and her fiance. Whether it's right or wrong in your eyes, I'm guessing Andi didn't think Nick deserved the same compassion/niceness she gave the others. She was pissed at him IMO. She went into her ADA mode because that's how she deals with people when she doesn't really want to.

And I feel like we could debate this til the cows come home and no one will change their minds. Lol. Perhaps Andi shouldn't have been so "cold" to Nick on the ATFR. Perhaps Nick shouldn't have let that line drop. But both things happened. Now Andi gets to be the lead where it's publicly confirmed she slept with more than one guy. Nick gets to be the "kiss-and-tell" guy and one who uses the words "make love" on national t.v. I know which one I'd rather be.

[Catdwoman50]

^^^. Girlfriend Cat! *tacklehugs* yes! I absolutely understand the Nick fans for being angry for Andi's apathy AFTR.   I've written posts and posts of it of explaining the probable reason WHY Andi was Icy at the AFTR as well. We were going around in circles actually. (Not you!) Sadly, no one is buying it and somehow I understand. .  If you care to read my kilometric posts upthread perhaps you'll understand (hopefully) where I'm coming from as well. If not, it does not matter because we're lifelong friends!!   

No I do get your point, she could be tired of everything, her point of view as Nick stalker/manipulator, Nick needed a strong rejection, whatever it is the delivery was NOT ATTRACTIVE and demeaning.  I'm tired of making excuses for her as I did during JPG exit or during Eric Hill episode.  I believe she could have handled the situation with great aplomb, if she chose to.  But you know what? True colors show in difficult situations and it wasn't one time but three that I could count, so I can't excuse it any longer.  Yes, girlfriend always nice to discuss opposing views.

[Cari]

^^^. Girlfriend Cat! *tacklehugs* yes! I absolutely understand the Nick fans for being angry for Andi's apathy AFTR.   I've written posts and posts of it of explaining the probable reason WHY Andi was Icy at the AFTR as well. We were going around in circles actually. (Not you!) Sadly, no one is buying it and somehow I understand. .  If you care to read my kilometric posts upthread perhaps you'll understand (hopefully) where I'm coming from as well. If not, it does not matter because we're lifelong friends!!   

No I do get your point, she could be tired of everything, her point of view as Nick stalker/manipulator, Nick needed a strong rejection, whatever it is the delivery was NOT ATTRACTIVE and demeaning.  I'm tired of making excuses for her as I did during JPG exit or during Eric Hill episode.  I believe she could have handled the situation with great aplomb, if she chose to.  But you know what? True colors show in difficult situations and it wasn't one time but three that I could count, so I can't excuse it any longer.  Yes, girlfriend always nice to discuss opposing views.

Ahhhhh... I now super get you, girlfriend!    yeah, I actually dint like the ADA Andi JuanPab and Eric, too! Though, I would disagree because I dint see the same combative ADA Andi at AFTR. She was actually too "Frozen" to speak!   But yeah, a lil compassion would have made a big difference but as umngirl posted upthread, I agree with her. What's done was done. Both Nick and Andi made their mistakes. I just hope the Nick fans would broaden their understanding more. If Andi is angrier after AFTR, no one would play niceties after being slutshamed on national tv. Warranted or not. One can not shift the blame back to her by saying, you deserved it because you were cold hearted.

Anyhoo, hope you join the unspoiled and crossing my fingers we'll be in the same team!

[stuckinsc]

This is more than sort of snarky but what the heck ...

I don't know where all this talk comes from about how great Nick's job is.  At 33 to be a Salesforce.com salesman is fine, but seriously, by that age, one should be way up the ladder by region or industry sector.  I am a career snob, I freely admit (Ed S actually had a great job in software sales at MSN).  Andi's legal credentials underwhelm.  Etc.  So take my comment with that grain of salt.  Nick is employed at a good company, but he is a run of the mill account exec soliciting small to medium business accounts at age 33.  Ho hum.  Hyperbole abounds on the board.  He has a steady job.  

And Josh is two years into building a book of business as a financial advisor, and was a strong student at UGA.  It's an exhausting profession in terms of needing to build a roster of clients ... but being a Murray in Georgia must be a good door opener.   (Being the guy who "won" the Bachelorette?  Not so much ... doesn't connect to the person to whom you'd entrust your nest egg, college funds, etc. ... but doubt it hurts either).

They are all about the same age, at about the same place in their careers.  Successful, but let's not get carried away.  It's not like they are Pantsapreneurs or something.    

I agree Nick and Josh are at the same points basically in their careers. Andi is like me, she is currently figuring out what to do. I raised a hubby then went back to grad school part one, left that with the MS to help care for elderly parents and am hopefully finishing PhD next year. It is okay to not want what you thought you might want. It takes strength of character to admit that and move on.

[happygolucky]

Ooops, I think someone might understood me wrong. I wasn't talking about the plane video in my previous post to Cari. The plane video is indeed real.
I was one of those who despite believing it is real, I thought there might be something more behind it to discredit the spoiler. I really thought the edit and the propaganda going along (before and after filming) was giving me the great love story with Nick & Andi. It's not that I didn't see the connection with Josh, I did, but I couldn't understand why would they portray him so one-dimensional, if he is F1 ... of course I was rooting for my boy, because in his words, Andi was IT (not that I really felt it, because I never got a good read of Andi, which for me transpired as her non being genuine and yes, I know, she is the lead who needs to lead on) ... now after the final, I have a full picture, I understand the edit, because was done as a consequence of the spoiler, but probably there was the same storyboard all along.

Now to you Cari, I'm not sure if I'll answer all of your questions:
I don't have anything to say about Josh - I get him, I like him, some things wish he wouldn't say, but they are completely understandable (the same as I would say for Nick).
About Andi ...  I've already broken my promise and written too much about her ... so if you would like to read my perspective, you can find my posts in Nick's *fan forum* thread (I don't know how to get all of my messages to be shown, my most reactive post was on the night of AFTR and most recent from today - so if you can find the way, then you'll get your answers).
I have no problem with Andi choosing Josh. I have no problem with the game that all of this requires for bringing 2 guys all the way to the final. But I have a major problem with how things are handled, a huge issue with TPTB (that it is all on me, so have nothing more to say) and as for Andi - I hope I can keep my cool and continue to be indifferent.

For Nick, I adore him, there's nothing that can change my mind even with all things he has done or said. I can find explanations for his actions (not excuses, because I don't think he is actually right all the time) and I believe to understand him, because I see many similar traits in him.
I understand people will continue to dislike him, I can't change their mind, so I won't try, there are people who find him indifferent, so they have no feelings for him, don't find him cute and funny and interesting as I do, and that's perfectly fine with me, then there are people who find him charming or endearing, that might have sympathy for, but will never be his fan and will call him out on his BS and then there are thousands of fans of his, who also happen to be different kind of people, so we don't happen to agree on everything and share the same point of view.

I also missed unspoiled board, I preferred not to write anymore, because I was afraid of making another slip and say something too much, but I was reading you and a lot of times agreeing, so it was interesting to read all of your points without being spoiled.
Heck, I didn't care about the spoiler either, but I was enjoying Nick's SM activity too much.

[Catdwoman50]

^^^. Girlfriend Cat! *tacklehugs* yes! I absolutely understand the Nick fans for being angry for Andi's apathy AFTR.   I've written posts and posts of it of explaining the probable reason WHY Andi was Icy at the AFTR as well. We were going around in circles actually. (Not you!) Sadly, no one is buying it and somehow I understand. .  If you care to read my kilometric posts upthread perhaps you'll understand (hopefully) where I'm coming from as well. If not, it does not matter because we're lifelong friends!!   

No I do get your point, she could be tired of everything, her point of view as Nick stalker/manipulator, Nick needed a strong rejection, whatever it is the delivery was NOT ATTRACTIVE and demeaning.  I'm tired of making excuses for her as I did during JPG exit or during Eric Hill episode.  I believe she could have handled the situation with great aplomb, if she chose to.  But you know what? True colors show in difficult situations and it wasn't one time but three that I could count, so I can't excuse it any longer.  Yes, girlfriend always nice to discuss opposing views.

Ahhhhh... I now super get you, girlfriend!    yeah, I actually dint like the ADA Andi JuanPab and Eric, too! Though, I would disagree because I dint see the same combative ADA Andi at AFTR. She was actually too "Frozen" to speak!   But yeah, a lil compassion would have made a big difference but as umngirl posted upthread, I agree with her. What's done was done. Both Nick and Andi made their mistakes. I just hope the Nick fans would broaden their understanding more. If Andi is angrier after AFTR, no one would play niceties after being slutshamed on national tv. Warranted or not. One can not shift the blame back to her by saying, you deserved it because you were cold hearted.

Anyhoo, hope you join the unspoiled and crossing my fingers we'll be in the same team!

Yaay! We finally agree, all that's happening are consequences of actions. So, yep you reap what you sow! Wait was I agreeing or disagreeing with you? Nah, you're right I won't belabor and will let bygones be bygones.

[ironcat]

People act like the RIGHT TO CLOSURE is in the friggin' Bill of Rights or something.

It makes me laugh.

Me too, jlccaz, as does your post.   :WAVEY: 

As someone who has gotten dumped a few times in my past and not gotten closure, I think it's highly overrated actually. And the guy who wrote that book "He's Just Not That Into You" is now a multimillionaire, so maybe that's saying something about how often relationships end with appropriate closure.

Frankly, my lowered expectations for the eloquence and communication skills of this show's participants leaves me not expecting much, season after season. No need to reevaluate this time either.

[stuckinsc]

No I do get your point, she could be tired of everything, her point of view as Nick stalker/manipulator, Nick needed a strong rejection, whatever it is the delivery was NOT ATTRACTIVE and demeaning.  I'm tired of making excuses for her as I did during JPG exit or during Eric Hill episode.  I believe she could have handled the situation with great aplomb, if she chose to.  But you know what? True colors show in difficult situations and it wasn't one time but three that I could count, so I can't excuse it any longer.  Yes, girlfriend always nice to discuss opposing views.

Ahhhhh... I now super get you, girlfriend!    yeah, I actually dint like the ADA Andi JuanPab and Eric, too! Though, I would disagree because I dint see the same combative ADA Andi at AFTR. She was actually too "Frozen" to speak!   But yeah, a lil compassion would have made a big difference but as umngirl posted upthread, I agree with her. What's done was done. Both Nick and Andi made their mistakes. I just hope the Nick fans would broaden their understanding more. If Andi is angrier after AFTR, no one would play niceties after being slutshamed on national tv. Warranted or not. One can not shift the blame back to her by saying, you deserved it because you were cold hearted.

Anyhoo, hope you join the unspoiled and crossing my fingers we'll be in the same team!

Yaay! We finally agree, all that's happening are consequences of actions. So, yep you reap what you sow! Wait was I agreeing or disagreeing with you?  Nah, you're right I won't belabor and will let bygones be bygones.  

I love reading the posts between the two of you. I personally believe that TPTB had Nick by his throat because of the plane video. I also believe that TPTB led him on and encouraged him that Andi was not happy with Josh and might be regretting her decision. Does this make Nick sad, that he would take her back? I didn't understand Molly taking back Jason, but it obviously worked for them. Now not hearing from Andi directly should have been a clue to Nick and Sharleen is right, though I don't doubt that he heard plenty from producers and CH.

I wished as it was happening that Nick hasn't said what he did. I also think the question was valid in a more general sense.. Should you have sex with someone if you don't feel that same way that you know they do?

My problem back from JPG's season is Andi. She did come out cold, and funny enough finally admitted to have some feelings once he said the unforgivable. I don't get that. I think that is when I would have refused to speak, instead that is when she finally opened up.

Weird!

I harbor no ill will to them as a couple. I just don't care and don't really like her anyway. If they succeed great, if not, they won't be the first. If I had seen her be better to Josh all season I might be more excited, unfortunately from my perspective, until Josh gave her exactly what she wanted she made him pay for her past mistakes and I hate that, it changed me from being pro-Josh and Andi before the season to wanting him to escape. He doesn't want to escape her, so I wish him the best. I think he has a family of strong, compassionate women and hopefully Andi can learn from them.

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