Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #6

[albean99]

I think at this point everyone's firmly entrenched in their opinions so will just say that I still like Nick and think he's a great guy who will find the right person for him in time like other f2 before him. Life's too short for me to worry too much about a silly reality tv show (see my avatar). It appears that Nick's making a great start moving on this weekend with his friends. Andi who?   

[Iam4UGA]

I'm kind of behind with all of this on this thread, but this is well said. I'm not sure if people saw my previous post or not, but RS read his text messages that he received from the woman who recorded the video. She said that she didn't even know who he was at first, but what speaking extremely loud on a 12 row plane. She said it was like he was "broadcasting" his conversation to everyone on the plane. According to her, and this is obviously before we got to see him on television so she had no preconceived notion of him, but she said he came off as a "pretentious douchebag" and he was "douchey mcdouche" and she also stated that guy seemed like he "loved hearing his own voice." Apparently, he also continued to talk a few times after the flight attendants told him to get off the phone. 

I was thinking of trying to transcribe the text messages that RS had received from the girl on the plane but you've done a good job of capturing what those texts were. It does seem like Nick didn't make the greatest of impressions on her.

As you indicated, popularity is subject to personal opinion.  However, in looking at numbers on SM, Nick is now at 27,200 followers on twitter and 43,000 on IG.  Josh now has 155,000 followers on twitter and 447,000 on IG.  Andi just passed the 300,000 mark on twitter and has 688,000 followers on IG.

I've been waiting for your professional opinion on this. Why didn't self preservation step in so that Nick didn't suffer further humiliation? Why do some people have a harder time letting go than others? Is it really about the heartbreak and need for closure or something else? Obviously, we only have a glimpse of him, but if you can look at it beyond Josh and Andi, what's your take?

I also would love to hear those opinions.

It's been said that it took Nick 6 months to get over his broken engagement and after listening to what Andi said (when she broke off with Nick in DR) Nick felt something was wrong with that relationship (does that mean he broke up with her of she broke off with him?). Is it easier to get over a relationship when it's your decision to end it than when the end is forced on you by someone else, or does that make it harder?

If filming took the normal 6 weeks or so, Nick spent 6 weeks in the bubble, MAYBE a couple of days in total with Andi most of which was hectic and interrupted by camera crews and producers. At the time of the ATFR he had spent more time - a LOT more time - out of the bubble and away from Andi than he ever spent in it and with Andi, and yet there was still something that he couldn't let go of. This sort of sounds like a pattern with Nick and I don't understand why that pattern.

From someone who has been through a divorce (me), Yes. I instigated the divorce. I was already over it by the time I asked for the divorce. My ex, not so much. It took him forever. In fact he did not even start to act civilly toward me until he got re-married 4 yrs later. (We have a son together, or I would not care how he acted.)

[GuardianAngel]

I also would love to hear those opinions.

It's been said that it took Nick 6 months to get over his broken engagement and after listening to what Andi said (when she broke off with Nick in DR) Nick felt something was wrong with that relationship (does that mean he broke up with her of she broke off with him?). Is it easier to get over a relationship when it's your decision to end it than when the end is forced on you by someone else, or does that make it harder?

If filming took the normal 6 weeks or so, Nick spent 6 weeks in the bubble, MAYBE a couple of days in total with Andi most of which was hectic and interrupted by camera crews and producers. At the time of the ATFR he had spent more time - a LOT more time - out of the bubble and away from Andi than he ever spent in it and with Andi, and yet there was still something that he couldn't let go of. This sort of sounds like a pattern with Nick and I don't understand why that pattern.

IMO he's honest and when he's in love, he means it. There's no acting on his part. He was truly heartbroken, and needed time to heal, 6 months isn't unreasonable, everyone is different when they handle heartbreak. This is the same situation he has found himself in with Andi. Some feel he's arrogant and he has some nerve trying to contact her. If Andi handled the situation better, eg letting Chris Brian or even Cory go, and discussed it with a grown up attitude rather than blaming him for being too analytical, (where she actually sounded like she was arguing with him), especially after taking advantage of him in the FS, because IMO that's what she did, perhaps it would have been easier for him. Maybe if she would have explained and talked about the fun she had with him, and tell him what she likes about him, his strengths, his so called mental and physical chemistry they had, and how she felt about him, but she has to go with her heart, like every other 'ette says, it might have avoided all the hoopola at the FRC. Then again, maybe that's the way they wanted it. They spent over 30 minutes focusing on Nicks heartbreak. There wasn't the usual montage for the F1 couple, looking back at their season, nor was there a trip given to them, like some other couples. It makes me wonder.

I read in one of the threads RS has changed his tune on Nick, he now realizes he's a great guy, because of a friend of a friend that knows him, or something like that. Sherlock has discovered Nick's not a creep and a stalker but a humble honest nice guy.

RE the bubble, everyone is in that bubble. Josh was in the same bubble, so was every other F1.

The timing of Lola couldn't have been better. There are pics of him enjoying himself, and moving on with his life. He'll be fine.

[docnash14]

snipped**
From Docnash

quote]As you indicated, popularity is subject to personal opinion.  However, in looking at numbers on SM, Nick is now at 27,200 followers on twitter and 43,000 on IG.  Josh now has 155,000 followers on twitter and 447,000 on IG.  Andi just passed the 300,000 mark on twitter and has 688,000 followers on IG.

To be fair, pre Bachelorette, Nick only had about 300 followers on twitter. Josh had a lot more, but Josh has Dawgnation and a famous QB brother behind him. It is only logical that he would have a lot more twitter followers than Nick. Andi was the lead and this is her second season, of course as the Bachelorette she is going to have a lot more followers than any of the male contestants.

I understand that folks are tiring of this but just for accuracy sake: Josh did start off the show with more followers on twitter than any of the other contestants. However, someone (Ash?) can check me but I think he had less than 10,000. I believe he was at 60,000 or so pre-finale.

[MVMom39forever]

GUARDIAN  - Yes! Nick will totally be fine and looks like he's already on the road to fine.

Finally catching up to lots of posts ...

JLCCAZ - I agreed with some of what you said re: the contract. When I became spoiled right after ep 4 by finding plane video on YouTube, I thought it was a hoax largely because of the contract issue and the fact that as a sales exec Nick deals with contracts/lawyers every time he closes a deal. That said ...

PAVALYGURL - Great comeback! and ISITTRUE - Exactly! The guy was heartbroken, just gotten phone back and was talking to his parents who were under contract. He gets a pass in my book.

As far as Andi being cool towards Nick during ATFR because of his trying to contact her ... well, her coolness began with her very unemotional break up during production and just continued to ATFR.

Andi can't have it both ways ... (although GRACE that photo Elan posted of Andi on float with pig head makes sense!) either Nick contacted her during season (and who can blame him after watching & hearing her words about him in ITM/Voiceovers ... "once in a lifetime ... physical-mental-emotional ...blah, blah BS"!) ... or ... as she later complained to Ali ... Nick never contacted her and hooked up w/ other women (and if he did hook up ... now who's doing the sl*t shaming?! Is her anger jealousy?)

Or, is Andi just a bit too self centered and insensitive? Is she just "nice and caring" when it suits her ... or ... when she knows that she has the upper hand and can afford to be?

I was her fan during Juan Pablo's season. I hated her performance after FD and literally tweeted her that she'd gone too far ... too bitchy ... BUT I blamed ABC for spurring her on in order to secure the Bachelorette role.

During the season, I blamed her attitude and anger at Eric as being due to 1) tired, 2) alcohol and 3) being an over-achiever who was trying her best and didn't like being called out. Another pass.

During the ATFR, I've shared my views above but will also throw in TO BE FAIR ... as an excuse for her bitchiness that a brokenhearted Nick unconsciously spoiled her season before it began. Who knows how much more TPTB amped up Nick & Andi lovestory and hid Josh & Andi to counteract spoiler. That said, she certainly gave TPTB PLENTY to make viewers believe Nick could be F1.

But ... who can explain the Andi we see today? The Andi who shares with the world in her People Magazine interview with her fiancée the following:

"We've gotten to spend a lot of time together, and what I always loved about Josh was how realistic our relationship was. I never thought that it was perfect all the time. I could see things like how he chewed with his mouth open. I knew that I loved him because I didn't mind the flaws. Some of them were even cute! But (turning to Josh) chew with your mouth closed!"

I have no excuse for this one, Andi. I give up. The lady is a b*tch!

Nick dodged a bullet and Mama Murray should send Josh back into the dating pool. He waited 5-6 years for a serious relationship and he can wait a few more until he finds someone who doesn't publicly humiliate him.

[docnash14]

I agree that it is time for all of us to move on and also agree with Albean that at this point most of us have our intractible opinions. Nonetheless, here's my take.

From what I could see at the ATFR Nick was very genuine in his emotions and was extremely upset and anxious. Frankly, I was quite surprised as it appeared to me leading up to the finale through his SM interactions, that he was good (although I guess all of us are quite capable of donning a desired persona or it's certainly possible that the anticipation of seeing Andi tore off the scab). I think as his conversation with Andi took form, Nick's upset was exacerbated because he was not getting from Andi what he had hoped (my bias here is that he did not seem to be taking into consideration how his actions leading up to this confrontation might have impacted her demeanor). We will never know if Nick entered that conversation with the intention of disclosing what he did but I believe it's possible, as he indicated to Ali in her interview with him, that his emotions got the best of him.

From Nick's vantage point, based on his interactions with Andi and her VO's and ITM's about him, I can absolutely see how he thought he was the chosen one. I don't think Andi was simply doing her job when she kissed Nick; she was clearly into it. That being said, I think, as has been mentioned many times, Andi went about the entire process as her attorney self - interrogating (some more than others!), probing and collecting as much as evidence as she could. The latter, in my opinion, entailed encouraging the guys to share their feelings (so she could gauge her own reaction to those declarations) as well as engaging in physical activity with them for similar reasons.

I think, however, that in some ways, Nick was a victim of his own thought process. As he analyzed all of the incoming data from Andi and became convinced that he was the one, I am not sure he left much room for an alternative outcome. Further, as early as Belgium, based on his comments to Brian, he had already ruled Josh out as an option for Andi. Thus, I wonder that in his mind, when it was down to just him and Josh, he thought it was a done deal (as he said during the FD RC, he didn't know why she didn't just send both of the remaining two - Chris and Josh- home). Still, I have to believe that somewhere down deep he started to sense her pulling away during LCD which is why he became to express some doubt. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that when Andi sent him away, he was so caught off guard that he was not able to process fully what she was trying to tell him (which I thought she did with as much compassion as her own discomfort at hurting him would allow and, yes, she got defensive but not as I would have expected from her).

Andi said in a recent interview that she had hoped that while watching the show back, Nick would have gotten some clarity prior to the ATFR and, indeed, according to another interview, Nick reportedly (unlike Josh) watched every second of every show save the proposal. Here's where I don't think he allowed himself to challenge his own convictions that it was him all along. When comparing his time with Andi to Josh's time with her, in my opinion, it certainly was not blatant that Nick was "the" one (and admittedly, my bias is that with Josh it was more blatant).

Lastly, before I end this missive, where I strongly disagree with many of you, I don't believe Andi chose the "safe" one by choosing Josh. Quite the contrary. As she spoke of ad nauseam, her feelings for Josh scared her from the get go; she was so afraid that if she chose him, he would be the one to break her heart since others who were his "type" had been the ones to hurt her. In order to pick Josh, she had to walk toward all of her fears. Once she did so, IMO, and the fears began to dissipate, she was able to see that the feelings she had felt from the beginning were feelings of love.

[soccermom333]

I have to chime in and defend Andi and Josh. They are both head over heels in love and the People article was adorable. They have seen each other everyday since they filmed the proposal and are even more in love today. Time will tell if they make it down the aisle but I for one saw their love story and wish them the best.

Mama Murray has already welcomed her "future daughter in law" with open arms. The pictures they posted with both sides of the family are very telling. I don't think she is a b*tch at all, just my opinion, and you have the right to call her one, and I have the right to defend her.

No they are not perfect but love each unconditionally.  :cutesmile!: 

[Kashathediva]

GUARDIAN  - Yes! Nick will totally be fine and looks like he's already on the road to fine.

Finally catching up to lots of posts ...

JLCCAZ - I agreed with some of what you said re: the contract. When I became spoiled right after ep 4 by finding plane video on YouTube, I thought it was a hoax largely because of the contract issue and the fact that as a sales exec Nick deals with contracts/lawyers every time he closes a deal. That said ...

PAVALYGURL - Great comeback! and ISITTRUE - Exactly! The guy was heartbroken, just gotten phone back and was talking to his parents who were under contract. He gets a pass in my book.

As far as Andi being cool towards Nick during ATFR because of his trying to contact her ... well, her coolness began with her very unemotional break up during production and just continued to ATFR.

Andi can't have it both ways ... (although GRACE that photo Elan posted of Andi on float with pig head makes sense!) either Nick contacted her during season (and who can blame him after watching & hearing her words about him in ITM/Voiceovers ... "once in a lifetime ... physical-mental-emotional ...blah, blah BS"!) ... or ... as she later complained to Ali ... Nick never contacted her and hooked up w/ other women (and if he did hook up ... now who's doing the sl*t shaming?! Is her anger jealousy?)

Or, is Andi just a bit too self centered and insensitive? Is she just "nice and caring" when it suits her ... or ... when she knows that she has the upper hand and can afford to be?

I was her fan during Juan Pablo's season. I hated her performance after FD and literally tweeted her that she'd gone too far ... too bitchy ... BUT I blamed ABC for spurring her on in order to secure the Bachelorette role.

During the season, I blamed her attitude and anger at Eric as being due to 1) tired, 2) alcohol and 3) being an over-achiever who was trying her best and didn't like being called out. Another pass.

During the ATFR, I've shared my views above but will also throw in TO BE FAIR ... as an excuse for her bitchiness that a brokenhearted Nick unconsciously spoiled her season before it began. Who knows how much more TPTB amped up Nick & Andi lovestory and hid Josh & Andi to counteract spoiler. That said, she certainly gave TPTB PLENTY to make viewers believe Nick could be F1.

But ... who can explain the Andi we see today? The Andi who shares with the world in her People Magazine interview with her fiancée the following:

"We've gotten to spend a lot of time together, and what I always loved about Josh was how realistic our relationship was. I never thought that it was perfect all the time. I could see things like how he chewed with his mouth open. I knew that I loved him because I didn't mind the flaws. Some of them were even cute! But (turning to Josh) chew with your mouth closed!"

I have no excuse for this one, Andi. I give up. The lady is a b*tch!

Nick dodged a bullet and Mama Murray should send Josh back into the dating pool. He waited 5-6 years for a serious relationship and he can wait a few more until he finds someone who doesn't publicly humiliate him.

Yeah this ^.
I especially identify with your comments about the People article.
Learning curve comes with age and maturity.
I wondered why the machine focused so much on the Eric issues. Now I understand why. It was altruistic for their own storyline re: Me and I.  Like I said earlier, 2/3 of this season's story was the filming up to the FRC. The other 1/3 was from the filming of the FRC up until the viewing of the ATFR.
I don't know how much I was taken. Maybe Me and I is not the person I saw and heard this season. I will try to keep open minded. The machine did a number on her, but if she left the show in love maybe that is the only bonus she needs.

[Ash2214]

I agree that it is time for all of us to move on and also agree with Albean that at this point most of us have our intractible opinions.  Nonetheless, here's my take.

From what I could see at the ATFR Nick was very genuine in his emotions and was extremely upset and anxious.  Frankly, I was quite surprised as it appeared to me leading up to the finale through his SM interactions, that he was good (although I guess all of us are quite capable of donning a desired persona or it's certainly possible that the anticipation of seeing Andi tore off the scab).  I think as his conversation with Andi took form, Nick's upset was exacerbated because he was not getting from Andi what he had hoped (my bias here is that he did not seem to be taking into consideration how his actions leading up to this confrontation might have impacted her demeanor).  We will never know if Nick entered that conversation with the intention of disclosing what he did but I believe it's possible, as he indicated to Ali in her interview with him, that his emotions got the best of him.

From Nick's vantage point, based on his interactions with Andi and her VO's and ITM's about him,  I can absolutely see how he thought he was the chosen one.  I don't think Andi was simply doing her job when she kissed Nick; she was clearly into it.  That being said, I think, as has been mentioned many times, Andi went about the entire process as her attorney self - interrogating (some more than others!), probing and collecting as much as evidence as she could.  The latter, in my opinion, entailed encouraging the guys to share their feelings (so she could gauge her own reaction to those declarations) as well as engaging in physical activity with them for similar reasons.  

I think, however, that in some ways, Nick was a victim of his own thought process.  As he analyzed all of the incoming data from Andi and became convinced that he was the one, I am not sure he left much room for an alternative outcome.  Further, as early as Belgium, based on his comments to Brian, he had already ruled Josh out as an option for Andi.  Thus, I wonder that in his mind, when it was down to just him and Josh, he thought it was a done deal (as he said during the FD RC, he didn't know why she didn't just send both of the remaining two - Chris and Josh- home).  Still, I have to believe that somewhere down deep he started to sense her pulling away during LCD which is why he became to express some doubt. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that when Andi sent him away, he was so caught off guard that he was not able to process fully what she was trying to tell him (which I thought she did with as much compassion as her own discomfort at hurting him would allow and, yes, she got defensive but not as I would have expected from her).

Andi said in a recent interview that she had hoped that while watching the show back, Nick would have gotten some clarity prior to the ATFR and, indeed, according to another interview, Nick reportedly (unlike Josh) watched every second of every show save the proposal.  Here's where I don't think he allowed himself to challenge his own convictions that it was him all along.  When comparing his time with Andi to Josh's time with her, in my opinion, it certainly was not blatant that Nick was "the" one (and admittedly, my bias is that with Josh it was more blatant).  

Lastly, before I end this missive, where I strongly disagree with many of you, I don't believe Andi chose the "safe" one by choosing Josh.  Quite the contrary.  As she spoke of ad nauseam,  her feelings for Josh scared her from the get go; she was so afraid that if she chose him, he would be the one to break her heart since others who were his "type" had been the ones to hurt her.  In order to pick Josh, she had to walk toward all of her fears.  Once she did so, IMO, and the fears began to dissipate, she was able to see that the feelings she had felt from the beginning were feelings of love.

Really well said. Your second to last paragraph is something I've been wanting to touch on all week. Andi did say in an interview that she was hoping by watching the show, Nick would see her connection with Josh and at least get some closure. Nick was asked a similar question in an interview and he admitted that he did see a strong connection between her and Josh, but that it didn't negate Nick's connection with Andi. I tend to think that this is where Nick went wrong. I have heard countless times where the F2 has said that he or she knew that they had a strong connection with the lead, but they also witnessed the connection the lead had with their F1 so it helped them put things into focus and understand how things came to be.

For most F2 it's a healing process watching the show. I think for Nick, he saw two great relationships on the show, but for whatever reason, he couldn't think that possibly while Andi did strongly care for him, she just fell in love with Josh or that between the two, she couldn't say goodbye to Josh. It's obviously a very difficult situation, but I just think Nick got it into his head fairly early on that only he would be a match for Andi and apparently he thought that all the way up until the very last episode aired. It's one thing to be confident in yourself and the relationship you have with someone (for example Josh stating several times that he knew what they had together, but he also didn't know the conversations or connections she was having with other guys), but to be that way to the extent that Nick was.. It's never a good mixture.

I also completely agree with your last paragraph.

[Lucas15]

Maybe if she would have explained and talked about the fun she had with him, and tell him what she likes about him, his strengths, his so called mental and physical chemistry they had, and how she felt about him, but she has to go with her heart, like every other 'ette says, it might have avoided all the hoopola at the FRC.

I don't know if that would have helped or hurt but I suspect it would have hurt; that's sort of what Ashley did with Ben and it turned out to be an epic fail. Ben got mad at her, told her not to sugar coat things (which is what that approach is) and then things got worse. Much worse. We didn't see the worst.

In this case Nick said there were certain things that he wished Andi had not said (or done) and I think that would have just been MORE things to wish she never said and would have only given more hope to believe a Mesnick was possible.

I don't believe that you can give closure to the end of a relationship unless you give a reason for its end and a clear unambiguous certainty that it is over. Otherwise you will leave out some ray hope that it could rekindle and as long as that hope exists, a person may hang on to that hope and will never get closure. I believe Nick has said that he didn't get closure until he saw how cold Andi was at the ATFR which just illustrates that point; perhaps had Andi been more cold initially Nick could have gotten closure sooner.

[GuardianAngel]

Great posts everyone!

The only thing that I have not posted, and keep meaning to is this. The confidentiality agreements were a joke this season. Nick spoiling Andi's season by the plane vid IMO really isn't want spoiled her season. It started with the SM "following" and tweeting by their own families. The rumours that they met prior which they admit they did "see" each other in a bar. Between everyone associated with them, all the Dawg fans, as well as Kelly doing the dirty work on behalf of Andi trashing Nick, before and during airing. There are so many more, there is a list in the archives.

So to say Nick spoiled her season, there were plenty of clues that were easily handed over to sleuthers, prior to the vid ever surfacing as well as after.

Even if there wasn't a vid, I think about this post way back on May 3rd, which IMO was already in the script.

by nd4reality on Sat May 03, 2014 10:01 pm

I wonder which if any of these will be the "Reid" of this season. That was an avalanche to be sure. And I'm pretty sure tptb and even Jillian didn't expect those reactions it all.

[albean99]

Maybe if she would have explained and talked about the fun she had with him, and tell him what she likes about him, his strengths, his so called mental and physical chemistry they had, and how she felt about him, but she has to go with her heart, like every other 'ette says, it might have avoided all the hoopola at the FRC.

I don't know if that would have helped or hurt but I suspect it would have hurt; that's sort of what Ashley did with Ben and it turned out to be an epic fail. Ben got mad at her, told her not to sugar coat things (which is what that approach is) and then things got worse. Much worse. We didn't see the worst.

In this case Nick said there were certain things that he wished Andi had not said (or done) and I think that would have just been MORE things to wish she never said and would have only given more hope to believe a Mesnick was possible.

I don't believe that you can give closure to the end of a relationship unless you give a reason for its end and a clear unambiguous certainty that it is over. Otherwise you will leave out some ray hope that it could rekindle and as long as that hope exists, a person may hang on to that hope and will never get closure. I believe Nick has said that he didn't get closure until he saw how cold Andi was at the ATFR which just illustrates that point; perhaps had Andi been more cold initially Nick could have gotten closure sooner.

Sorry but I have to comment on this. So Andi wasn't cold enough? I think you missed the point. It wasn't that she was too warm that may have left a question in his mind when she let him go. It was that she didn't say the magic words that she had feelings for him but they were stronger for someone else. That's really all she had to say at the end. He's not going to think of the right questions to ask while still shocked by what just happened. If he was able to write that letter when he first got home even if he wasn't able to actually talk to Andi I think he'd have been able to let go then. I'm not blaming that part on Andi. It suits Fleiss & the rest that the f2 is miserable as long as possible to ramp up the drama at ATFR. I'm sure they loved it all and the whole filming in Milwaukee & flying Nick to L.A. was such a obvious ploy. I have a feeling that although Nick was hurt and taking a while to get over Andi, he was more emotional after watching the finale than if he hadn't. Again I'm sure that's planned by TPTB.

I find it just a bit amusing that Andi was so upset by anything Nick said on the video right after she broke his heart or the contents of the letter when she was the one who dumped him. I guess she really is all about Andi.

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