Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #6

[luvlady345]

Oh Cari, I like Nick even less than I thought, really your post.

[chloep]

Nick is not calling her out on the act(of sex), but her intentions behind the act and how she handled the consequences of the act. This expert of his blog says it all IMO:

To me what’s most important is that the two people involved have a clear understanding of what sex means to the other person. If the emotional attachment to sex isn’t equal, sex can be hurtful. Consequently, it should be treated with the greatest amount of respect.

Yes, both men and women need to respect it.
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Sex, when enjoyed in the right context, is a wonderful way to solidify a relationship. But when expectations aren’t the same for both partners, it can be devastating.

[Guest]

^^^ It's actually a great message and discussion to come out of a reality show. Not the same as Sean's, but perhaps more compelling since the majority of people aren't abstaining from sex.

[isittrue]

Nick is not calling her out on the act(of sex), but her intentions behind the act and how she handled the consequences of the act. This expert of his blog says it all IMO:

To me what’s most important is that the two people involved have a clear understanding of what sex means to the other person. If the emotional attachment to sex isn’t equal, sex can be hurtful. Consequently, it should be treated with the greatest amount of respect.

Yes, both men and women need to respect it.
-----
Sex, when enjoyed in the right context, is a wonderful way to solidify a relationship. But when expectations aren’t the same for both partners, it can be devastating.

Exactly! Not sure why the term slut-shaming applies here. IMO, he is not criticizing her for having sex with him and Josh in the FS, but the message behind the act of having sex with him if 1) she was unsure of their relationship or 2) she had already picked Josh. It would be different if he was going on about how she slept with Josh and him days apart from each other but to my knowledge, he has never brought that up.

[Cari]

Nick is not calling her out on the act(of sex), but her intentions behind the act and how she handled the consequences of the act. This expert of his blog says it all IMO:

To me what’s most important is that the two people involved have a clear understanding of what sex means to the other person. If the emotional attachment to sex isn’t equal, sex can be hurtful. Consequently, it should be treated with the greatest amount of respect.

Yes, both men and women need to respect it.
-----
Sex, when enjoyed in the right context, is a wonderful way to solidify a relationship. But when expectations aren’t the same for both partners, it can be devastating.

And Nick questioning Andi's intentions behind the act is what?

Let's say, hypothetically, Andi knew and that indeed Nick said specifically "not to sleep with me if you don't have feelings for me." AND YET, Andi slept with him when she does not love him because she picked Josh. What then is Nick trying to imply is Andi's intention?

That Andi played him.

That Andi had meaningless sex with him.

So what do we call that kind of a girl now?

Are we still sugarcoating what Nick is insinuating?

no matter what form or shape we call his "questioning",

the insinuation remains the same.

Nick is questioning Andi's integrity by questioning her intention.

I've seen posts and posts "pitying" Josh and his family for how can they accept Andi now after learning that she slept with Nick? AND STILL THAT IS NOT SLUT SHAMING?   

[Ash2214]

Wow, really well said Cari.

Another thing that some people are upset with as well is that he could have easily phrased it another way. He didn't need to flat out say they had sex. Andi would know exactly what he was speaking about and the audience would not be able to be 100% sure what he was talking about. No matter what Andi said to him on that couch, unless it was that she was in love with him and wanted him back or that at one point she was in love with him, but chose Josh, Nick wouldn't have been happy. Nick said what he did, in my opinion, because he was angry, hurt and upset that Andi just admitted she was never in love with him, but fell in love with Josh and that her relationship with Josh was more right. In me eyes, he did it to hurt her.

I like what he wrote in his blog. I love when guys take sex seriously. In our society, far too many men don't. I get what he was saying and I'm happy he finally stated that either Andi wasn't sure about her relationship with him or that she had already chosen Josh because it became far too annoying to hear him talk about being the best match for Andi. However, like Cari said, there is an underlining theme with all of this and it's too bad not everyone, especially as a woman, can acknowledge this.

Also, by stating out loud on national television that they had sex, Nick opened Andi to a lot of criticism, hence the guy from Fox calling her a slut on television.

[stuckinsc]

In the Jezebel interview (which she was interviewed for after the MTA and before the ATFR) Andi said that she knew it was Josh after the FS.  So, I honestly think that she wasn't sure when she slept with Nick.  But, also in that interview she says that she wouldn't be engaged if Josh wasn't there and that although she definitely had an attraction to Nick, that it was really hard because she liked Nick, and that he "definitely was the second person." So, what she says in interviews is confusing and conflicting.  It's a combo between her honest feelings, a re-writing of history (not necessarily in a bad way but in a what you have to do now that you are ready to marry someone else kind of way).  

See for me, I don't think it was too conflicting or confusing. In interviews she also stated from the moment Josh stepped out of the limo, there was something there, but she didn't know with 100% certainty until after the fantasy suite. In one of CH's blogs, he essentially said that production basically told her to try out other relationships and if she ends up with Josh, then that's great, but it would be best to keep herself open. I think that ties in directly with what she said. From the beginning she knew there was something with Josh, but she formed other relationships too. Nick was "definitely the number two person" but she fell in love with Josh.

For her based off what she said, it seems like in the fantasy suite she saw that Josh was the same person on and off camera and that his feelings were genuine so it kind of finally lowered that last wall she had up with him. She stated that she was attracted to Nick and liked him, but she didn't describe anything further than that. As sad as it is, and it might not be the best way to put it, I think Nick was always her "plan B" if it didn't work with Josh. I happen to think that if Josh had his fantasy date first, there would have been a good chance she wouldn't have slept with Nick, especially since she's saying after her fantasy date with Josh she knew it was going to be him.  

I do agree that had Josh had his FS date first that the physical intimacy between Nick and Andi probably would not have happened.

I don't think Andi can really saw for sure what would have happened if Josh had not been on the season. It is romantic to think that there is only one true love for all of us, but I don't believe that is true. With a different group of guys or even without Josh she may have still gotten engaged. Each person we meet opens new parts of ourselves up. So she may have been slightly different if Josh wasn't there, as the part he opened up may not have been so dominant.

This doesn't detract from what Josh and Andi have to me, they are still a good fit and I still wish them the best.

As a person who likes Nick, I hope he finds the one who is best for him too.

[Acrunch]

Nick is not calling her out on the act(of sex), but her intentions behind the act and how she handled the consequences of the act. This expert of his blog says it all IMO:

To me what’s most important is that the two people involved have a clear understanding of what sex means to the other person. If the emotional attachment to sex isn’t equal, sex can be hurtful. Consequently, it should be treated with the greatest amount of respect.

Yes, both men and women need to respect it.
-----
Sex, when enjoyed in the right context, is a wonderful way to solidify a relationship. But when expectations aren’t the same for both partners, it can be devastating.

And Nick questioning Andi's intentions behind the act is what?

Let's say, hypothetically, Andi knew and that indeed Nick said specifically "not to sleep with me if you don't have feelings for me." AND YET, Andi slept with him when she does not love him because she picked Josh. What then is Nick trying to imply is Andi's intention?

That Andi played him.

That Andi had meaningless sex with him.

So what do we call that kind of a girl now?

Are we still sugarcoating what Nick is insinuating?

no matter what form or shape we call his "questioning",

the insinuation remains the same.

Nick is questioning Andi's integrity by questioning her intention.

I've seen posts and posts "pitying" Josh and his family for how can they accept Andi now after learning that she slept with Nick? AND STILL THAT IS NOT SLUT SHAMING?   

Exactly Cari! I call it passive aggressive slut shaming. Nick is presumably a very smart guy. I don't believe for a minute that he doesn't know that his continuous talking about it is bringing Andi all sorts of negative publicity and SM insults. He's questioning her feelings and intentions towards him and the fact that he continues to talk about it makes me question his intentions towards her. I think he loves his ego more than he ever loved her.

[luvlady345]

You know what I am willing to bet/gamble my yearly salary that Nick has had sex with more than 3 women. I just dislike the guy, no way around it for me, an I believe the only thing Nick wanted was to let it be known he slept with Andi, that's all no convincing me otherwise.

[Guest]

Exactly. I've also said this multiple times, but there are many different factors with this ridiculous show. We saw that huge table of alcohol on Josh's fantasy suite. There is drinking involved, she was obviously physically attracted to Nick and it's human nature and Andi was alone with a guy she was attracted to for the first time in over a month, plus you're caught up in the moment, which is very easy to do.

For me, it's as simple as Andi probably shouldn't have slept with Nick and Nick probably shouldn't have blurted out on national television that she did.  

I agree with your last sentence, but there's a lot more she shouldn't have done, such as asking a 9 year old if she take her as a sister.

Are we 100% sure that Josh's FD was last? Billy Bush said she slept with Nick 8 days before the FRC which would make Nick's last. It struck me that he said 8 days, rather than a guess-timate of a week.

Pretty positive we had a tweet sighting of Josh and Andi dancing in the streets so the date was confirmed that way.

Thanks!

[Kashathediva]

He's still talking about it?   

Why not?  People spent days here talking about it and then more days talking about the person he was following on twitter.  Guess he is no different than us except this obviously still affects him personally as opposed to us.  

We don't know why he posted the blog now - maybe Sean encouraged him or he asked Sean to post it earlier and Sean ran Arie's article first.  Who knows?  It is still a big story in national media at any rate.

I think it's a very valid topic--not because it's Nick or MeandI. Just because it is.
Sean--I give you kudos. (and I never come close to saying that!) It's something people of either sex should think about. It has nothing to do with shame. It has to do with communication on what I consider the deepest level. But see that's the thing--maybe to someone else or under other circumstances it has no more of a deep level than--a fist bump? Who knows. But it does generate a lot of thought and I think that is one of the reasons it was posted on Yawn's--errr Sean's blog. Kudos Sean.

[MVMom39forever]

I think he said/she said would be preferable to this. Andi said she's a woman and doesn't need to feel shame over it, so that's a confirmation IMO.

Nick did a great job of articulating why it hurt and led him on. It left me wondering how/why Andi didn't feel she owed him more of an explanation and why she was so cold to him. Why was Andi telling him (LCD) to think about all he "enjoyed." Would she have had sex with him just to guarantee that an F2 stuck around? She also reminded him of all the first he got. It such a disturbing thought to think it was all a step-up, but I can't help but wonder if it was.

For those that think ATFR was calculated on Nick's part, can you also consider that perhaps it was all calculated on Andi's part? Andi and Aaron Murray were following each other during Juan Pabs season. They unfollowed each other right before filming began. Andi and Josh were photographed in Feb at the same club, separate photos but with a mutual friend in both pictures. Chloe had heard that Andi and Josh were set up in a hotel in CA before filming began. Josh wasn't really shown in PIs as worried that he would not be the F1. Next we have TPTB giving Andi and Josh one of the worst send offs ever at ATFR. It just seems like some puzzle pieces are missing this season. If I don't know what was real and what wasn't, I can only imagine how Nick is feeling trying to sort it out.

So true Grace!! This has me scratching my head and I really hope more truth trickles out as it always does.

Before HTD episode aired, I posted on this forum that I thought Nick was either a scripted F2 or one of the most obvious F1's that I had ever seen. All season Nick was consistently "that" guy to get FIR, THAT guy to give her his own date card/courtyard champagne, THAT guy to give her flowers at rose ceremony, THAT guy to comfort her when Eric left, THAT guy to get no date card and first 2nd one-on-one w/"eternal love" kiss under arch, THAT guy to sneak to her room and then to streets of Brussels, THAT guy to get the "most important rose of the season" and THAT guy to get secluded beach FD ... blah, blah, blah.

Through the MTA it was clear as day to me that the edit ... the love story ... I was seeing required a foiler the magnitude of the plane video in order for TPTB to dedicate the season to such an authentic adventurer as the beautiful Eric.  It also was clear as day to me as soon as the finale started that Andi would not pick Nick. Her acting days ... that Chris Harrison commented about ... had come to an abrupt end. Yet somehow through all the weeks of filming and even when cameras went away in FD, Nick failed to get the message that he was indeed Andi's scripted F2. But he heard it loud and clear at ATFR and therefore reacted as he did.  

If Nick was confused watching back the season and hearing her "once in a lifetime" words, I get it. Sure as heck confused me too.

And if Nick felt like a block of ice slapped him in the face at ATFR, I get it. I felt the chill too.

And if Andi wants to claim Nick went below the belt at ATFR, well, she went there first ... and then teased him about how much he enjoyed it during LCD.

So yeah, I guess this is my looooooooooong winded way of saying: I respect Sean for providing Nick with a forum to expand on the situation and explain his actions.  If this is what Nick needed to further come to terms with all that happened, so be it. Nick has his reputation on the line as he moves forward with his professional and personal life. All this said, I hope to never hear Nick address it again. I don't want to read a tell all book. I don't want to see any more interviews. The crash is over ... time to move on. I just want to see him keep moving forward.

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