Re: * No Spoilers* The Bachelor 18 FINALE (LCD/MTP/FRC) Discussion- Thread #2

[notarose]

Alanna, unfortunately there isn't documentation which would make it extremely easy for TPTB to have the public viewer buy the fact that Juan Pablo might have said the statement. I'm not saying I think Juan Pablo is above making a crass statement, I just don't believe he made this particular statement (about Clare).

Agree.
Since JPG's mom stated on twitter that she and Clare specifically talked about this helicopter comment but it didn't air on the show it does sound like it may have been what lead to the aired "rude" exchange they had.  It doesn't sound as if JPG's mom felt it was necessary to not include their convo in the episode.  

Interesting that they spoke about it...I hadn't heard that.

Oops, my mistake!!!!
His sister said she & Clare spoken for a long time & it didn't air. No specifics about their convo.
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Anna tagged Clare twice in tweets.

[Guest]

I am so tired with oceangate:

1) Chelsie in an interview said that JuanPa wanted Nikki from Week 2.  If she knows this I am sure that Clare did also.
2) Clare showed up at his room at 4 am wanting to go to a warm ocean.  He went.  Fine.
3) Clare started to act like she own him giving a toast to making love.  Hinting at a sexual relationship.  JuanPa stepped back and said wait a minute this is not right.  
4) He approached her and said that they cannot do that(whatever that is) again because it was not fair to the other girls. But did Clare listen, no she did not care.  So JuanPa came out with his big gun, his daughter.  Everything went to hell in a handbag after that.

For Clare and everyone to place the blame solely on JuanPa is absolutely nuts. IMO of course.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what is your definition of using a woman if that doesn't qualify? Clare wouldn't have known he already knew based on his behavior on the group date that day. He took her to his pool, was kissing her in those little boats and gave her the GD rose.

BTW I am not trying to argumentative either.  But, taking her to his pool and kissing her in the boats did not mean that she was the frontrunner.  She should known better.  She is 32 years old.  The problem came in when she started to brag, that is when JuanPa stopped it before it became a problem for everyone else.  At least that is how I saw it.

I agree, the bragging was wrong because it was rude to the other girls. I'm not defending Clare specifically, but it's the "should have known better" part that bothers me and was my point today. She should have known that he would use her given the opportunity. She should know that there are 2 sets of rules, one for her and one for him. Some will even think she deserves his disrespect. I don't get why this is acceptable. I have a 12 year old daughter who has her first boyfriend. They are just pure and innocent at this age, holding hands, untouched by what's to come. It's kind of beautiful to see because you forget how that felt in your own life. I guess I resent that soon I have to burst that bubble, because she has to know better- even though it's definitely not better!

[LibbyBell]

Thanks notarose!

[glazedover]

I am so tired with oceangate:

1) Chelsie in an interview said that JuanPa wanted Nikki from Week 2.  If she knows this I am sure that Clare did also.
2) Clare showed up at his room at 4 am wanting to go to a warm ocean.  He went.  Fine.
3) Clare started to act like she own him giving a toast to making love.  Hinting at a sexual relationship.  JuanPa stepped back and said wait a minute this is not right.  
4) He approached her and said that they cannot do that(whatever that is) again because it was not fair to the other girls. But did Clare listen, no she did not care.  So JuanPa came out with his big gun, his daughter.  Everything went to hell in a handbag after that.

For Clare and everyone to place the blame solely on JuanPa is absolutely nuts. IMO of course.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what is your definition of using a woman if that doesn't qualify? Clare wouldn't have known he already knew based on his behavior on the group date that day. He took her to his pool, was kissing her in those little boats and gave her the GD rose.

BTW I am not trying to argumentative either.  But, taking her to his pool and kissing her in the boats did not mean that she was the frontrunner.  She should known better.  She is 32 years old.  The problem came in when she started to brag, that is when JuanPa stopped it before it became a problem for everyone else.  At least that is how I saw it.

I agree, the bragging was wrong because it was rude to the other girls. I'm not defending Clare specifically, but it's the "should have known better" part that bothers me and was my point today. She should have known that he would use her given the opportunity. She should know that there are 2 sets of rules, one for her and one for him. Some will even think she deserves his disrespect. I don't get why this is acceptable. I have a 12 year old daughter who has her first boyfriend. They are just pure and innocent at this age, holding hands, untouched by what's to come. It's kind of beautiful to see because you forget how that felt in your own life. I guess I resent that soon I have to burst that bubble, because she has to know better- even though it's definitely not better!

The thing I find most disturbing is that if you accept the supposition that JP disrespected Clare, you have to acknowledge that she kept coming back for more. It is the job of the lead to lead these contestants on and pick them off one by one. That is the premise of the show. In other words, the whole show is borderline disrespectful at any particular moment. In order to keep your self-respect you need to own your actions and not do anything that may compromise your good feelings about yourself if things do not go well for you. Everyone going on this show knows that they should keep this in mind and it is also a good model for living in the real world.

[Guest]

I am so tired with oceangate:

1) Chelsie in an interview said that JuanPa wanted Nikki from Week 2.  If she knows this I am sure that Clare did also.
2) Clare showed up at his room at 4 am wanting to go to a warm ocean.  He went.  Fine.
3) Clare started to act like she own him giving a toast to making love.  Hinting at a sexual relationship.  JuanPa stepped back and said wait a minute this is not right.  
4) He approached her and said that they cannot do that(whatever that is) again because it was not fair to the other girls. But did Clare listen, no she did not care.  So JuanPa came out with his big gun, his daughter.  Everything went to hell in a handbag after that.

For Clare and everyone to place the blame solely on JuanPa is absolutely nuts. IMO of course.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what is your definition of using a woman if that doesn't qualify? Clare wouldn't have known he already knew based on his behavior on the group date that day. He took her to his pool, was kissing her in those little boats and gave her the GD rose.

BTW I am not trying to argumentative either.  But, taking her to his pool and kissing her in the boats did not mean that she was the frontrunner.  She should known better.  She is 32 years old.  The problem came in when she started to brag, that is when JuanPa stopped it before it became a problem for everyone else.  At least that is how I saw it.

I agree, the bragging was wrong because it was rude to the other girls. I'm not defending Clare specifically, but it's the "should have known better" part that bothers me and was my point today. She should have known that he would use her given the opportunity. She should know that there are 2 sets of rules, one for her and one for him. Some will even think she deserves his disrespect. I don't get why this is acceptable. I have a 12 year old daughter who has her first boyfriend. They are just pure and innocent at this age, holding hands, untouched by what's to come. It's kind of beautiful to see because you forget how that felt in your own life. I guess I resent that soon I have to burst that bubble, because she has to know better- even though it's definitely not better!

The thing I find most disturbing is that if you accept the supposition that JP disrespected Clare, you have to acknowledge that she kept coming back for more. It is the job of the lead to lead these contestants on and pick them off one by one. That is the premise of the show. In other words, the whole show is borderline disrespectful at any particular moment. In order to keep your self-respect you need to own your actions and not do anything that may compromise your good feelings about yourself if things do not go well for you. Everyone going on this show knows that they should keep this in mind and it is also a good model for living in the real world.

I don't disagree, but he took it one step too far by having sex with her, especially if he had already picked Nikki. It seems impossible to keep the focus off what Clare did rather than what pabs did. She was falling in love with him and made bad decisions. What is his excuse?

[Guest]

Who said he had sex? Until JuanP and Clare confirm that, it did not happen!

[Aunties_Love]

Oh brother. Of course they had sex. Clare made the comment that he said in the heli and again, why in the world would he of made that comment if they didn't have sex? She went to that immediately at the FRC WITHOUT extra prodding from production, in case that was a thought. I would assume it is one of the main reasons why she was so hurt.

[eliza3]

Clare knew that he didn't feel like he knew her that well and felt disrespected.  But she still wanted to marry him?   That makes absolutely no sense to me.  

She is spinning a great tale from my perspective that is keeping her in the limelight.  To me she seems desperate.  Why would you continue to discuss your love (sex if that happened which I for one don't think is the case) life on national tv.  Classless IMO

[quietpal]

The thing I find most disturbing is that if you accept the supposition that JP disrespected Clare, you have to acknowledge that she kept coming back for more. It is the job of the lead to lead these contestants on and pick them off one by one. That is the premise of the show. In other words, the whole show is borderline disrespectful at any particular moment. In order to keep your self-respect you need to own your actions and not do anything that may compromise your good feelings about yourself if things do not go well for you. Everyone going on this show knows that they should keep this in mind and it is also a good model for living in the real world.

Great post! ITA!

[iamreal2u]

^^I see what you are saying. If she is going on national TV to let everyone know that she had sex with JuanPa and he said he love having sex with her.. Ummmm. Think she should quit while she is ahead when she has the backing of some behind her.

The problem I see here is that Clare felt she was used by JuanPa but really continuing with this drama, she is being used by TPTB to push their agenda further. Not sure at this point who is the bigger user. I hope she gets some monetary compensation for it.

[2observe]

I am so tired with oceangate:

1) Chelsie in an interview said that JuanPa wanted Nikki from Week 2.  If she knows this I am sure that Clare did also.
2) Clare showed up at his room at 4 am wanting to go to a warm ocean.  He went.  Fine.
3) Clare started to act like she own him giving a toast to making love.  Hinting at a sexual relationship.  JuanPa stepped back and said wait a minute this is not right.  
4) He approached her and said that they cannot do that(whatever that is) again because it was not fair to the other girls. But did Clare listen, no she did not care.  So JuanPa came out with his big gun, his daughter.  Everything went to hell in a handbag after that.

For Clare and everyone to place the blame solely on JuanPa is absolutely nuts. IMO of course.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what is your definition of using a woman if that doesn't qualify? Clare wouldn't have known he already knew based on his behavior on the group date that day. He took her to his pool, was kissing her in those little boats and gave her the GD rose.

BTW I am not trying to argumentative either.  But, taking her to his pool and kissing her in the boats did not mean that she was the frontrunner.  She should known better.  She is 32 years old.  The problem came in when she started to brag, that is when JuanPa stopped it before it became a problem for everyone else.  At least that is how I saw it.

I agree, the bragging was wrong because it was rude to the other girls. I'm not defending Clare specifically, but it's the "should have known better" part that bothers me and was my point today. She should have known that he would use her given the opportunity. She should know that there are 2 sets of rules, one for her and one for him. Some will even think she deserves his disrespect. I don't get why this is acceptable. I have a 12 year old daughter who has her first boyfriend. They are just pure and innocent at this age, holding hands, untouched by what's to come. It's kind of beautiful to see because you forget how that felt in your own life. I guess I resent that soon I have to burst that bubble, because she has to know better- even though it's definitely not better!

Everyone except the intended F1 is "played/used" throughout the process. That is the NAME OF THE GAME of the Bachelor/ette Series.   It's nothing new because it happens on every Show.

[Guest]

I'm shocked people think Clare lied about what JP said to her. he's made many dumb, insensitive comments. Many girls found him unlikable. A smart, confident woman (Andi) was offended to the point of disgust a few days earlier. He's been very insensitive to Clare already. IMO, of course he said it.

I was rooting for JP until that moment and episode. It became clear to me at that point that he is what Andi and others saw. The show can throw him under the bus and give him a bad edit - but it's based on what he gave them to work with. I don't think there's a grand conspiracy to make him look bad. He was a jerk to Andi and Clare and IMO to Nikki on ATFR on live tv.

I cheered along with the audience for Clare at the FRC and lost all interest in JP. To me it became clear that what TPTB were showing was more than a bad edit because he wouldn't play ball. It was how he acted and treated the women on the show. Good for all the ladies who respected themselves more than continuing a sharade. Not sure what is up with Nikki. No interest in following them post show. Just commenting because I checked in here out of habit and was so surprised people doubted Clare's honesty.

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