Re: * No Spoilers* The Bachelor 18 FINALE (LCD/MTP/FRC) Discussion- Thread #2

[quietpal]

Kudos to 4health, Libby, and Muslady. I too wasn't invested at first, but found myself getting sucked in. I wasn't necessarily a fan of his (he grew on me too), but I am a fan of the way his and Nikki's relationship progressed. To me, it was like a slow burn.

[Cari]

 Great posting 4health and LibbyBell.  I think JuanPa did have 2 very different relationships because I think in general he is very adaptable in that he can read people and catch how they(women) want him to react.  It will take time but more and more of the truth will come out and his integrity will grow with that.

Awesome, awesome analysis, 4health! It is as if you were there behind the production! Haha

And Libby, soul sister!    

[JBF]

So to start why do I watch the bachelor and come here on the forums, it is because I like sleuthing and learn the editing process to this show. I have been involved with the forums for awhile and I think this season was edited like it was because tptb was confused, just like us. I am going to say things that people might think differently and that's okay. But my thoughts are coming from sleuthing out pass seasons and things that have been high indicators of the leads frontrunner.

1 - First 1:1 date - Lead chooses who to take, unlike other dates (usually always in F4 because of it)
2 - RC 1:1 time hidden/not
3 - 2nd 1:1 date timing
4 - High adrenaline date
5 - Future plans discussed
6 - Has a story arch
7 - HTD doubt
8 - FD placement, price of suite, FD activity
9 - RC F3 - frontrunner has always been called second
10 - MTP first or second
11 - LCD placement, activity, gift (usually is shown & usually is something from their journey together)

I am sure there are many more to discuss but as I watch this season I think tptb either from JP or from JP actions they had Clare as a frontrunner (potential F1) because she received most of the F1 perks or signs as a frontrunner. I think Juan P was trying to figure out where his feelings were for both of these ladies. He stated to Clare on their LCD evening that "do I know these people here enough" Juan P just included both girls in that statement. So, to question who was the frontrunner or that someone was F1 since week 2 he stated exactly where his thoughts were when talking with Clare. He didn't know or have the answers to make a decision to propose. So, I do think Clare had the perks of F1 and Nikki's personality wasn't as physical but his words to her (which they kept in the edit) wearing a thong, liking the view from the back (which was stated twice their first 1:1 date and then horseback riding) tptb was trying to show the physical with Nikki also. Since JuanP didn't get the opportunity to say his thoughts with Clare at the FRC "When he made he decision" I think the final decision came down to exactly what JuanP expressed…..He didn't know either one of them 100% but two things pushed Nikki ahead #1 "He couldn't let her go" it was easier to say goodbye to Clare. He wasn't in love with either one but who did he want to get to know more…..#2 I think it was the girl that didn't question him, that didn't hold back kisses, the girl that he had no heavy discussions over, the one that he didn't say things he had to answer for, the girl that would be okay with what he has did on the show, knowing full well what he did and when he did it. Juan P needed someone strong and in love with him to stick things out…

The whole "I couldn't make up my mind until late in the season" is the one scenario that makes the most sense to me in hindsight... AND it is the one that makes Juan look the best coming out of this. If he always considered Nikki his first choice since the very beginning, there is a lot to explain regarding how he "misled" Clare... and even viewers on screen.

Then again, one of the hosts on AfterBuzz thought Clare was just like Jake Pavelka and was after the Bachelorette prize anyway. Although I didn't agree with that observation, I have been fooled by contestants in the past. So it is possible. Maybe all of the anger was just a performance for the cameras. Nonetheless it left a yucky after taste in my mouth, along with Helicopter Speech.

Basically this forum had two camps.

One camp read The Spoilers and zeroed in on Nikki despite her negative edit and viewed Clare simply as "smokescreen" to distract viewers. The main argument about why Nikki's relationship looked weaker on screen than Clare's was due to the editors hiding it. (Also we can add Juan insisting he doesn't like to broadcast his affections to The World on ATFR.) Proof in point: ABC not posting shots from Nikki's hometown.

The other camp either avoided The Spoilers or were open to the possibility that they were wrong as with Des' season. Juan/Nikki was compared scene-by-scene with Juan/Clare, Juan/Sharleen, Juan/Renee, Juan/Andi and so forth. Although some saw Nikki as the frontrunner, others (myself included) didn't exactly see "smokescreen" with Clare. His hands were all over her in a way that was not the case with previous F2s... not even "physical" Brad/Chantal (which hardly seems as "physical" in youtube reviewing as it may have when Reality Steve insisted she was F1 and many on old FORT were riding high on her fan train). In fact, there wasn't a whole lot left to the imagination regarding "Let's not kiss" and one can only wonder what Camilla will think of Daddy's relationship with a "dumpee" if she does eventually watch the show in the future.

When a cluster of ladies on Women Tell All stated that Juan only came here for a short-term girlfriend and not a wife, I just assumed they were just feeling bitter. Yet maybe there is some truth behind this. One huge difference between Nikki and Clare was that the former three times labeled Juan as "boyfriend" while the latter kept bringing up deceased daddy's DVD for her future "husband".

Right now, the closest match that I can come up with to compare Juan to is Ben Flajnik. The major twists season-wise are that the skinnydip (or almost a skinnydip) was done with F2 instead of F1 and... F2 had the protective family like Ben's F4 Kacie B. (i.e. Lillian's speech about marriage not being something one "plays around with"). Like Courtney's hometown, Nikki's hometown was conflict-free and Daddy was very supportive... and, more importantly, was not demanding of anything permanent (i.e. Nikki must choose Juan as equally as he chooses her and Juan should only propose if 100% committed). Basically F1 Nikki = F1 Courtney... although Nikki lacked Courtney's sense of humor. Neither was the most beloved contestant in the house. Although the Miami date went well, half of Nikki's screentime was spent on her war with Clare, much as Courtney was always shown at war with Emily and Kacie. (Fortunately nobody boomeranged to "warn" Juan like Kacie did Ben in Switzerland... so glad this season wasn't THAT ridiculous.) Both F1s had that amusing little dance when they got their first date rose. The Rose was always important... with both commenting each time they got it "again". One of Nikki's funniest moments came when Clare called her out for being one way with the ladies and one way with him and her quick response was (paraphrasing) "but YOU aren't the one giving out the roses". In the end, Nikki left FRC sporting The Rose... not a ring, not a proposal nor an on screen "ILY". Courtney did get more from Ben even if Chris Harrison clung on to the engagement ring for safe keeping until ATFR. Ben's proud achievement with Courtney was (paraphrasing again from what I recall) "for the first time, I actually WORKED at a relationship". Even if Juan is not promising wedding bells with Nikki, we can say his triumph with Nikki could echo Ben's... and I will add "babysteps, Juan, babysteps... you are getting there".

Juan said he and Clare had "high standards" suggesting that they may both be seeking an ideal that neither will find. Juan hoped his daughter would look up to him in the same regard Clare looked up to her father, but Juan may have been questioning if he could fit into that role with Clare. Nikki did not place such a demand on him. Her only loophole in her episode #1 intro was that she will not settle and she is open to either finding love or heartbreak. Therefore, if she and Juan break up, we the viewers won't be hypercritical of them.

[Alanna]

I totally disagree that JPG thought Clare was the more serious choice so he didn't choose her and chose Nikki because it would be easier to break up with her quicker. That's definitely untrue IMO because JPG treated Clare like a plaything, and made her cry multiple times and really just treated her poorly with no regard to her wellbeing. I'm not condoning this behavior at all, but it's what I saw. With Nikki, he was kind and sweet and much more caring. Nikki was the real deal for him, partly because she understands him and knows how to speak his language and partly because she's just simply the one he wants. He didn't respect Clare, only wanted her body, and it showed.

[LibbyBell]

Kudos to 4health, Libby, and Muslady. I too wasn't invested at first, but found myself getting sucked in. I wasn't necessarily a fan of his (he grew on me too), but I am a fan of the way his and Nikki's relationship progressed. To me, it was like a slow burn.

Thanks quietpal  :Biggrin: and here's too you Cari!   

[JBF]

I totally disagree that JPG thought Clare was the more serious choice so he didn't choose her and chose Nikki because it would be easier to break up with her quicker.

For the record... I am not suggesting that at all. Granted, that may be the direction my post may imply to some of you reading. I even stated in other posts that it is quite possible that he and Nikki will live happily ever after. My comments comparing him to Ben have more to do with what was presented on screen rather than realities off screen.

Oh... what's the use! Nobody will understand me anyway. I already threw in the towel regarding the bizarre editing of the season and am just waiting out the next few months to see what all does happen with this relationship.

[Mirzam]

JBF, it is coming off as sour grapes to me. Can you accept you were had by the editors, it wasn't IMO a 'bizarre edit", you just read it wrong (not the first time either -right)? JP and Nikki are not Ben and Courtney, and it sounds like a snide dig at the couple. I hope you do give them a chance, them seem very happy so far and even in love.

[JBF]

Oh ppppplllleeeeesseee. It is only a silly show. No, I am not sour grapes. I never was THAT invested. You do amuse me in your posts though.

Who is to say Ben and Courtney weren't "in love" either? Heck, ALL of the couples thought they were at some point. I'll watch the Juan/Nikki wedding on TV.

I probably will skip Andi's season. Not feeling feeling much "oomph" with her, but who knows?

[livlafluv1]

I totally disagree that JPG thought Clare was the more serious choice so he didn't choose her and chose Nikki because it would be easier to break up with her quicker.

For the record... I am not suggesting that at all. Granted, that may be the direction my post may imply to some of you reading. I even stated in other posts that it is quite possible that he and Nikki will live happily ever after. My comments comparing him to Ben have more to do with what was presented on screen rather than realities off screen.

Oh... what's the use! Nobody will understand me anyway. I already threw in the towel regarding the bizarre editing of the season and am just waiting out the next few months to see what all does happen with this relationship.

I think I kind of get what you're saying. To me this season did remind me of Ben's in different ways- late night swim in the ocean, Nikki's PI after getting a gd rose resembling Courtney's "winning," the htd of Nikki reminded me of lindzi's HTD ( I thought if it looks that good, something must be not good), and tptb not really caring if the relationship lasts or not ( they really don't care, they care about the buzz that will keep the show going). There were things left in (for example the convo in Miami with Chelsie and not being sentimental about jewelry, knowing that Nikki receives earrings made by JP's father) and things left out (nikki receiving the earrings, her discussing them with JP's dad, blink and you missed that one), most of the CH and JP deliberations, a montage of each of the f2's journeys the close of WTA, for that matter a montage of Nikki and JP's journey in the finale or even them watching the FR onstage together (did they see it backstage, or never see it?)

Coming off the "success" of Sean and Cat including the televised wedding, they needed to shake things up and they did. I didn't start watching this season until the episode in Korea, then I got sucked in and went back to watch earlier episodes. I never believe the spoilers if I see them, to me they are only one piece of the puzzle.
The clues on social media this season were telling in retrospect.

[Guest]

I have some serious problems here. Why all the posters who Have differing opinions suddenly entitled to be called sour grapes? And feel the need to clarify themselves?. Its called having different POV. It happens in every aspects of our Real life, let alone of this Silly reality TV show . Why taken all of the fun in sleuthing , analyzing , speculating, etc by "mandating" everyone to be right in predicting the correct outcome As well as should be happy for the final couple? . It is really Beyond me...

[Mirzam]

I wish could be fun too, but I object to been condescended towards with lines like, "your posts amuse me". Not cool. I will not be posting about this further, we all don't have to enjoy certain posters tomes.

[JBF]

I am not condescending you, Mirzam. Nonetheless, I should have been more specific, regarding the humorous "sour grapes" comment being the one that amused me. Just "delete" it... as Juan would say. No harm intended.

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