Re: * No Spoilers* The Bachelor 18 FINALE (LCD/MTP/FRC) Discussion- Thread #2

[LibbyBell]

^^I see what you are saying.  If she is going on national TV to let everyone know that she had sex with JuanPa and he said he love having sex with her.. Ummmm.  Think she should quit while she is ahead when she has the backing of some behind her.

The problem I see here is that Clare felt she was used by JuanPa but really continuing with this drama, she is being used by TPTB to push their agenda further.  Not sure at this point who is the bigger user.  I hope she gets some monetary compensation for it.

Iam-- I agree with the bolded!   

I'm shocked people think Clare lied about what JP said to her.... (original post snipped)....Just commenting because I checked in here out of habit and was so surprised people doubted Clare's honesty.

Relaxing, I can understand how you saw it that way. Some of us have seen a couple of clues to show that her comment and the way that it has been edited as not how it originally played out. For example: in Clare's ITM during her LCD she posed the same question that she had asked in the helicopter: Do you think you know me well enough to propose. Juan Pablo answered and then Clare said: Ok, that is what I need to know. I don't want you to tell me I like kissing, I like kissing I need to know we have more than that. If he had truly said, I like f-ing you (what TPTB chose to edit in later) then she would have used those words and IMO would have still been offended (I know that I would have been!). Another clue: Cassandra's interview where she said she had spoken with Clare and Juan Pablo had said I don't feel like I know you well enough but I do know I want to bang you (Cassandra was obviously using her own words here but, if Juan Pablo had said I like f-ing you (as it was edited) then she would have said  I do know I liked banging you or something to that effect) Another clue: Juan Pablo's sister tweeted that she and Clare discussed the helicopter comment and it wasn't how it was presented on the show-- again, in the edit. Again, these are just a few of the clues that lead some of us to think that it didn't go down quite like it was shown on the show but, of course, without video or audio, we have no proof but we are giving Juan Pablo the benefit of the doubt since there is proof for reasonable doubt.

[4health]

^^I see what you are saying.  If she is going on national TV to let everyone know that she had sex with JuanPa and he said he love having sex with her.. Ummmm.  Think she should quit while she is ahead when she has the backing of some behind her.

The problem I see here is that Clare felt she was used by JuanPa but really continuing with this drama, she is being used by TPTB to push their agenda further.  Not sure at this point who is the bigger user.  I hope she gets some monetary compensation for it.

Iam-- I agree with the bolded!   

I'm shocked people think Clare lied about what JP said to her.... (original post snipped)....Just commenting because I checked in here out of habit and was so surprised people doubted Clare's honesty.

Relaxing, I can understand how you saw it that way. Some of us have seen a couple of clues to show that her comment and the way that it has been edited as not how it originally played out. For example: in Clare's ITM during her LCD she posed the same question that she had asked in the helicopter: Do you think you know me well enough to propose. Juan Pablo answered and then Clare said: Ok, that is what I need to know. I don't want you to tell me I like kissing, I like kissing I need to know we have more than that. If he had truly said, I like f-ing you (what TPTB chose to edit in later) then she would have used those words and IMO would have still been offended (I know that I would have been!). Another clue: Cassandra's interview where she said she had spoken with Clare and Juan Pablo had said I don't feel like I know you well enough but I do know I want to bang you (Cassandra was obviously using her own words here but, if Juan Pablo had said I like f-ing you (as it was edited) then she would have said  I do know I liked banging you or something to that effect) Another clue: Juan Pablo's sister tweeted that she and Clare discussed the helicopter comment and it wasn't how it was presented on the show-- again, in the edit. Again, these are just a few of the clues that lead some of us to think that it didn't go down quite like it was shown on the show but, of course, without video or audio, we have no proof but we are giving Juan Pablo the benefit of the doubt since there is proof for reasonable doubt.

So question….how can JP's sister discuss the helicopter date when MTP was before their LCD date. It is MTP for each girl and then LCD dates. So, either JP sister is talking about discussing the ocean gate situation or something else. The helicopter wouldn't not have happened yet. Plus also, I believe that Nikki had her MTP before Clare…Clare came second to MTP….because is a SC it showed JP arriving hugging and kissing each of his family members and wearing the same clothes that everyone was wearing with Nikki, and on the episode you see them talking about St.Lucia being like their home country and JP says to his niece "you are getting big" and kissing and kissing Camila because they haven't seen each other for a while wearing the same clothes as when Nikki arrives. So when you watch MTP with that in mind then things look a seem very different. His cousin's comments "she's an angel", his Dad say "I love you" and when his cousin is talking with Nikki he states "i don't know about the other girl"….if he would have met Clare already I think he would have said Clare.

I am mentioning this because it just shows how the editing isn't as it seems.

[notarose]

^^I see what you are saying.  If she is going on national TV to let everyone know that she had sex with JuanPa and he said he love having sex with her.. Ummmm.  Think she should quit while she is ahead when she has the backing of some behind her.

The problem I see here is that Clare felt she was used by JuanPa but really continuing with this drama, she is being used by TPTB to push their agenda further.  Not sure at this point who is the bigger user.  I hope she gets some monetary compensation for it.

Iam-- I agree with the bolded!   

I'm shocked people think Clare lied about what JP said to her.... (original post snipped)....Just commenting because I checked in here out of habit and was so surprised people doubted Clare's honesty.

Relaxing, I can understand how you saw it that way. Some of us have seen a couple of clues to show that her comment and the way that it has been edited as not how it originally played out. For example: in Clare's ITM during her LCD she posed the same question that she had asked in the helicopter: Do you think you know me well enough to propose. Juan Pablo answered and then Clare said: Ok, that is what I need to know. I don't want you to tell me I like kissing, I like kissing I need to know we have more than that. If he had truly said, I like f-ing you (what TPTB chose to edit in later) then she would have used those words and IMO would have still been offended (I know that I would have been!). Another clue: Cassandra's interview where she said she had spoken with Clare and Juan Pablo had said I don't feel like I know you well enough but I do know I want to bang you (Cassandra was obviously using her own words here but, if Juan Pablo had said I like f-ing you (as it was edited) then she would have said  I do know I liked banging you or something to that effect) Another clue: Juan Pablo's sister tweeted that she and Clare discussed the helicopter comment and it wasn't how it was presented on the show-- again, in the edit. Again, these are just a few of the clues that lead some of us to think that it didn't go down quite like it was shown on the show but, of course, without video or audio, we have no proof but we are giving Juan Pablo the benefit of the doubt since there is proof for reasonable doubt.

So question….how can JP's sister discuss the helicopter date when MTP was before their LCD date.  It is MTP for each girl and then LCD dates.  So, either JP sister is talking about discussing the ocean gate situation or something else.  The helicopter wouldn't not have happened yet.   Plus also, I believe that Nikki had her MTP before Clare…Clare came second to MTP….because is a SC it showed JP arriving hugging and kissing each of his family members and wearing the same clothes that everyone was wearing with Nikki, and on the episode you see them talking about St.Lucia being like their home country and JP says to his niece "you are getting big" and kissing and kissing Camila because they haven't seen each other for a while wearing the same clothes as when Nikki arrives.   So when you watch MTP with that in mind then things look a seem very different.  His cousin's comments "she's an angel", his Dad say "I love you" and when his cousin is talking with Nikki he states "i don't know about the other girl"….if he would have met Clare already I think he would have said Clare.  

I am mentioning this because it just shows how the editing isn't as it seems.  

Keen observations 4health!   

[Idlemess]

I am so tired with oceangate:

1) Chelsie in an interview said that JuanPa wanted Nikki from Week 2.  If she knows this I am sure that Clare did also.
2) Clare showed up at his room at 4 am wanting to go to a warm ocean.  He went.  Fine.
3) Clare started to act like she own him giving a toast to making love.  Hinting at a sexual relationship.  JuanPa stepped back and said wait a minute this is not right.  
4) He approached her and said that they cannot do that(whatever that is) again because it was not fair to the other girls. But did Clare listen, no she did not care.  So JuanPa came out with his big gun, his daughter.  Everything went to hell in a handbag after that.

For Clare and everyone to place the blame solely on JuanPa is absolutely nuts. IMO of course.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what is your definition of using a woman if that doesn't qualify? Clare wouldn't have known he already knew based on his behavior on the group date that day. He took her to his pool, was kissing her in those little boats and gave her the GD rose.

BTW I am not trying to argumentative either.  But, taking her to his pool and kissing her in the boats did not mean that she was the frontrunner.  She should known better.  She is 32 years old.  The problem came in when she started to brag, that is when JuanPa stopped it before it became a problem for everyone else.  At least that is how I saw it.

I agree, the bragging was wrong because it was rude to the other girls. I'm not defending Clare specifically, but it's the "should have known better" part that bothers me and was my point today. She should have known that he would use her given the opportunity. She should know that there are 2 sets of rules, one for her and one for him. Some will even think she deserves his disrespect. I don't get why this is acceptable. I have a 12 year old daughter who has her first boyfriend. They are just pure and innocent at this age, holding hands, untouched by what's to come. It's kind of beautiful to see because you forget how that felt in your own life. I guess I resent that soon I have to burst that bubble, because she has to know better- even though it's definitely not better!

The thing I find most disturbing is that if you accept the supposition that JP disrespected Clare, you have to acknowledge that she kept coming back for more. It is the job of the lead to lead these contestants on and pick them off one by one. That is the premise of the show. In other words, the whole show is borderline disrespectful at any particular moment. In order to keep your self-respect you need to own your actions and not do anything that may compromise your good feelings about yourself if things do not go well for you. Everyone going on this show knows that they should keep this in mind and it is also a good model for living in the real world.

Good point! For everyone who decides to go on this show and any other reality show... a little advice, know what you're getting into, after all you are signing a contract.

[4health]

^^I see what you are saying.  If she is going on national TV to let everyone know that she had sex with JuanPa and he said he love having sex with her.. Ummmm.  Think she should quit while she is ahead when she has the backing of some behind her.

The problem I see here is that Clare felt she was used by JuanPa but really continuing with this drama, she is being used by TPTB to push their agenda further.  Not sure at this point who is the bigger user.  I hope she gets some monetary compensation for it.

Iam-- I agree with the bolded!   

I'm shocked people think Clare lied about what JP said to her.... (original post snipped)....Just commenting because I checked in here out of habit and was so surprised people doubted Clare's honesty.

Relaxing, I can understand how you saw it that way. Some of us have seen a couple of clues to show that her comment and the way that it has been edited as not how it originally played out. For example: in Clare's ITM during her LCD she posed the same question that she had asked in the helicopter: Do you think you know me well enough to propose. Juan Pablo answered and then Clare said: Ok, that is what I need to know. I don't want you to tell me I like kissing, I like kissing I need to know we have more than that. If he had truly said, I like f-ing you (what TPTB chose to edit in later) then she would have used those words and IMO would have still been offended (I know that I would have been!). Another clue: Cassandra's interview where she said she had spoken with Clare and Juan Pablo had said I don't feel like I know you well enough but I do know I want to bang you (Cassandra was obviously using her own words here but, if Juan Pablo had said I like f-ing you (as it was edited) then she would have said  I do know I liked banging you or something to that effect) Another clue: Juan Pablo's sister tweeted that she and Clare discussed the helicopter comment and it wasn't how it was presented on the show-- again, in the edit. Again, these are just a few of the clues that lead some of us to think that it didn't go down quite like it was shown on the show but, of course, without video or audio, we have no proof but we are giving Juan Pablo the benefit of the doubt since there is proof for reasonable doubt.

So question….how can JP's sister discuss the helicopter date when MTP was before their LCD date.  It is MTP for each girl and then LCD dates.  So, either JP sister is talking about discussing the ocean gate situation or something else.  The helicopter wouldn't not have happened yet.   Plus also, I believe that Nikki had her MTP before Clare…Clare came second to MTP….because is a SC it showed JP arriving hugging and kissing each of his family members and wearing the same clothes that everyone was wearing with Nikki, and on the episode you see them talking about St.Lucia being like their home country and JP says to his niece "you are getting big" and kissing and kissing Camila because they haven't seen each other for a while wearing the same clothes as when Nikki arrives.   So when you watch MTP with that in mind then things look a seem very different.  His cousin's comments "she's an angel", his Dad say "I love you" and when his cousin is talking with Nikki he states "i don't know about the other girl"….if he would have met Clare already I think he would have said Clare.  

I am mentioning this because it just shows how the editing isn't as it seems.  

Keen observations 4health!    

Thanks….another thing if you keep that Nikki came first and then Clare….you see in the preview of the MTP his cousin talking with JP by the pool and he says "she is all in"….they are wearing the same clothes as with Nikki…and since Clare was second to MTP they were talking about Nikki….and then we see them talking right after Clare's date and that's when he says "she wants it, not like begging"…..and him saying to JP if you want marriage and kids then go all in………so why switch the girls MTP around….just like moving Clare's HTD to seem it was last, when it was actually first. Because they needed to show why Nikki was F1, and end with JP's day crossing his figures and not end with JP's dad saying "i love you" to Clare. JP wasn't ready for marriage and kids, Clare was. They weren't on the same page. Do I think JP is a jerk? Yes for more reasons then just the helicopter comment or only the Clare F2 situation. If he is so honest and knew he was going to pick Nikki and doesn't like hurting people then he just didn't show class when talking with Clare on their LCD evening portion. Putting the helicopter situation aside….JP showed no class when talking with Clare on the evening portion. He should have just been respectful of how it would hurt her and just say nothing, especially if he knew it was Nikki. He is a jerk in my opinion just on the night portion then add everything else it just sealed the deal that I don't respect the man….but hey if Nikki loves him, all the more power to her and I hope it works.

[Aunties_Love]

I'm shocked people think Clare lied about what JP said to her.  he's made many dumb, insensitive comments.  Many girls found him unlikable.  A smart, confident woman (Andi) was offended to the point of disgust a few days earlier.  He's been very insensitive to Clare already.  IMO, of course he said it.

I was rooting for JP until that moment and episode.  It became clear to me at that point that he is what Andi and others saw.  The show can throw him under the bus and give him a bad edit - but it's based on what he gave them to work with.  I don't think there's a grand conspiracy to make him look bad.  He was a jerk to Andi and Clare and IMO to Nikki on ATFR on live tv.  

I cheered along with the audience for Clare at the FRC and lost all interest in JP.  To me it became clear that what TPTB were showing was more than a bad edit because he wouldn't play ball.  It was how he acted and treated the women on the show.  Good for all the ladies who respected themselves more than continuing a sharade.  Not sure what is up with Nikki.  No interest in following them post show.   Just commenting because I checked in here out of habit and was so surprised people doubted Clare's honesty.

I agree whole heartedly. Not to mention on the ATFR, it was live, there was no chance to "edit" him how they(TPTB) wanted. He still came off as an insensitive jerk.

[Aunties_Love]

^^I see what you are saying.  If she is going on national TV to let everyone know that she had sex with JuanPa and he said he love having sex with her.. Ummmm.  Think she should quit while she is ahead when she has the backing of some behind her.

The problem I see here is that Clare felt she was used by JuanPa but really continuing with this drama, she is being used by TPTB to push their agenda further.  Not sure at this point who is the bigger user.  I hope she gets some monetary compensation for it.

Iam-- I agree with the bolded!   

I'm shocked people think Clare lied about what JP said to her.... (original post snipped)....Just commenting because I checked in here out of habit and was so surprised people doubted Clare's honesty.

Relaxing, I can understand how you saw it that way. Some of us have seen a couple of clues to show that her comment and the way that it has been edited as not how it originally played out. For example: in Clare's ITM during her LCD she posed the same question that she had asked in the helicopter: Do you think you know me well enough to propose. Juan Pablo answered and then Clare said: Ok, that is what I need to know. I don't want you to tell me I like kissing, I like kissing I need to know we have more than that. If he had truly said, I like f-ing you (what TPTB chose to edit in later) then she would have used those words and IMO would have still been offended (I know that I would have been!). Another clue: Cassandra's interview where she said she had spoken with Clare and Juan Pablo had said I don't feel like I know you well enough but I do know I want to bang you (Cassandra was obviously using her own words here but, if Juan Pablo had said I like f-ing you (as it was edited) then she would have said  I do know I liked banging you or something to that effect) Another clue: Juan Pablo's sister tweeted that she and Clare discussed the helicopter comment and it wasn't how it was presented on the show-- again, in the edit. Again, these are just a few of the clues that lead some of us to think that it didn't go down quite like it was shown on the show but, of course, without video or audio, we have no proof but we are giving Juan Pablo the benefit of the doubt since there is proof for reasonable doubt.

So question….how can JP's sister discuss the helicopter date when MTP was before their LCD date.  It is MTP for each girl and then LCD dates.  So, either JP sister is talking about discussing the ocean gate situation or something else.  The helicopter wouldn't not have happened yet.   Plus also, I believe that Nikki had her MTP before Clare…Clare came second to MTP….because is a SC it showed JP arriving hugging and kissing each of his family members and wearing the same clothes that everyone was wearing with Nikki, and on the episode you see them talking about St.Lucia being like their home country and JP says to his niece "you are getting big" and kissing and kissing Camila because they haven't seen each other for a while wearing the same clothes as when Nikki arrives.   So when you watch MTP with that in mind then things look a seem very different.  His cousin's comments "she's an angel", his Dad say "I love you" and when his cousin is talking with Nikki he states "i don't know about the other girl"….if he would have met Clare already I think he would have said Clare.  

I am mentioning this because it just shows how the editing isn't as it seems.  

Keen observations 4health!    

Thanks….another thing if you keep that Nikki came first and then Clare….you see in the preview of the MTP his cousin talking with JP by the pool and he says "she is all in"….they are wearing the same clothes as with Nikki…and since Clare was second to MTP they were talking about Nikki….and then we see them talking right after Clare's date and that's when he says "she wants it, not like begging"…..and him saying to JP if you want marriage and kids then go all in………so why switch the girls MTP around….just like moving Clare's HTD to seem it was last, when it was actually first.   Because they needed to show why Nikki was F1, and end with JP's day crossing his figures and not end with JP's dad saying "i love you" to Clare.    JP wasn't ready for marriage and kids, Clare was. They weren't on the same page.  Do I think JP is a jerk? Yes for more reasons then just the helicopter comment or only the Clare F2 situation.  If he is so honest and knew he was going to pick Nikki and doesn't like hurting people then he just didn't show class when talking with Clare on their LCD evening portion.   Putting the helicopter situation aside….JP showed no class when talking with Clare on the evening portion.  He should have just been respectful of how it would hurt her and just say nothing, especially if he knew it was Nikki.    He is a jerk in my opinion just on the night portion then add everything else it just sealed the deal that I don't respect the man….but hey if Nikki loves him, all the more power to her and I hope it works.
 

Exactly, if he knew well and good that he was going to choose Nikki, then why in the heck lead Clare on at that point by talking about kids, etc. Before anyone jumps down my throat, yea, I do understand that the lead usually leads the F2 along, but to talk about the future and kids when SHE wasn't the one to bring it up, makes no sense. I get how they still need to kiss and cuddle, etc, but talking about kids, future and family is going above and beyond the usual leading on. I hope future show leads take heed and not go above the usual hugging and kissing at this stage. Talking about futures only hurts the f2 more, not to mention getting them angry.

[LibbyBell]

4health, I saw your similar response in the other thread... You make a good point re: the timing. I totally agree with you that the editing just doesn't line up!

ETA-- Auntie, I totally agree with you it was wrong of Juan Pablo to discuss future and babies....I think we can ALL agree there!

[4health]

OOPS Posted this is wrong thread…I will move it here….
Thanks LibbyBell….I find it interesting that we are still discussing all of this days after the finale. So, I have asked a question to myself is WHY are we? Because I can usually go back and watch all the episodes and see the connection of the F1 if I didn't during the season. But, this season I saw two very different but very strong connections with the lead even going back and re-watching it I still came with the same feelings. I think I am right to say that Juan P had two very different relationships happening up to the very end. There really wasn't a so called frontrunner but tptb had Clare as the frontrunner because Clare received the F1 perks (FD suite, HTD doubt, F3 RC, Nicer suites etc.) that is why I keep noticing things that I want to put 2 and 2 together to help me understand what I was watching and why I was so invested in this particular season with a lead that I really didn't care for. If you saw my posts before the finale I knew Nikki was F1 because of the timestamps. So I wanted to share why I think this season was a tough one for me and why I keep talking about it.

So to start why do I watch the bachelor and come here on the forums, it is because I like sleuthing and learn the editing process to this show. I have been involved with the forums for awhile and I think this season was edited like it was because tptb was confused, just like us. I am going to say things that people might think differently and that's okay. But my thoughts are coming from sleuthing out pass seasons and things that have been high indicators of the leads frontrunner.

1 - First 1:1 date - Lead chooses who to take, unlike other dates (usually always in F4 because of it)
2 - RC 1:1 time hidden/not
3 - 2nd 1:1 date timing
4 - High adrenaline date
5 - Future plans discussed
6 - Has a story arch
7 - HTD doubt
8 - FD placement, price of suite, FD activity
9 - RC F3 - frontrunner has always been called second
10 - MTP first or second
11 - LCD placement, activity, gift (usually is shown & usually is something from their journey together)

I am sure there are many more to discuss but as I watch this season I think tptb either from JP or from JP actions they had Clare as a frontrunner (potential F1) because she received most of the F1 perks or signs as a frontrunner. I think Juan P was trying to figure out where his feelings were for both of these ladies. He stated to Clare on their LCD evening that "do I know these people here enough" Juan P just included both girls in that statement. So, to question who was the frontrunner or that someone was F1 since week 2 he stated exactly where his thoughts were when talking with Clare. He didn't know or have the answers to make a decision to propose. So, I do think Clare had the perks of F1 and Nikki's personality wasn't as physical but his words to her (which they kept in the edit) wearing a thong, liking the view from the back (which was stated twice their first 1:1 date and then horseback riding) tptb was trying to show the physical with Nikki also. Since JuanP didn't get the opportunity to say his thoughts with Clare at the FRC "When he made he decision" I think the final decision came down to exactly what JuanP expressed…..He didn't know either one of them 100% but two things pushed Nikki ahead #1 "He couldn't let her go" it was easier to say goodbye to Clare. He wasn't in love with either one but who did he want to get to know more…..#2 I think it was the girl that didn't question him, that didn't hold back kisses, the girl that he had no heavy discussions over, the one that he didn't say things he had to answer for, the girl that would be okay with what he has did on the show, knowing full well what he did and when he did it. Juan P needed someone strong and in love with him to stick things out….

So, since the FRC Juan P has realized that he made the right decision for him. He had four months without drama and with out questioning anything. The true test is the next four months and beyond if Nikki will be strong and stick by her man since "all the snakes are out of the bag" per se since the season has been aired. I sure hope that Juan P has shared with Nikki what happened (his side of the story) during filming and Nikki is informed before it was broadcasted for all to see. If JuanP did share it, I think Nikki will continue to stand by her man and wait tell he is ready to make that next step.

[LibbyBell]

I think I am right to say that Juan P had two very different relationships happening up to the very end.   

I think the final decision came down to exactly what JuanP expressed…..He didn't know either one of them 100% but two things pushed Nikki ahead #1 "He couldn't let her go"  it was easier to say goodbye to Clare.  

Juan P needed someone strong and in love with him to stick things out….
 

Great post 4health! I've bolded some of your specific statements that I particularly agree with.

I started the season out not being too excited about Juan Pablo but I must say he grew on me a little. I think I find myself still involved and discussing mainly because the edit just was SO off. I saw his 2 very different relationships as well. I think what it came down to for me (since I really wasn't a big fan of Juan Pablo and wasn't very invested in the season) was that I liked what he seemed to have with Nikki more than I liked what I saw developing with Clare. I find he and Nikki to be sweet, gentle and practical; to me it offers more of a chance to succeed out of the confines of the show. His song for her, post show, was extremely cute and thoughtful.

I can't imagine what all happened between Juan Pablo and TPTB to get him where he is now but I'm sure it would be a tale we would all love to hear!

[Muslady]

 Great posting 4health and LibbyBell. I think JuanPa did have 2 very different relationships because I think in general he is very adaptable in that he can read people and catch how they(women) want him to react. It will take time but more and more of the truth will come out and his integrity will grow with that.

[LibbyBell]

Thanks muslady, I agree, as time goes on we will learn more!

[Sponsored content]