*No Spoilers* The Bachelor 18 Edit Discussions

see2love wrote:But then Nikki said the same thing in a VO just before she sat with him on the group date in New Zealand.

pls feel free to fill in some details...
JFYI, my aim is not `defending` that Clare is the F1. i just need to share what i`ve found/analyzed.( i have had so much fun doing it!...  ).
Any reasonings on why Nikki/Andi/Renee is the F1 are also welcomed!...and it will be way2 more fun!  :trampoline: 

I love that we all have differing views and opinions. makes it super fun.

I can't quote verbatim what she said, but it was along the lines of " what i have with Juan Pablo is something he doesn't have with the others". not near my tv to recheck and confirm

Couple of odds and ends of interest that tend to be overlooked, but just might be vital to The Storyline...

First up…

Episode #2: Victoria’s Meltdown…

Uh oh… people are not going to like what I am seeing here. Just read, pick apart and dispute. That’s what we do here.

Although Victoria semi-interrupts Nikki’s time with Juan with her drunk wandering, Nikki is all over this segment in PI sessions and conversations with Victoria (telling her “I think you need to tone it down”) and the other ladies when Victoria isn’t around. When Renee explains to a group that Juan tried to “reason with her”, Nikki is shown. When Kelly says Victoria owes Juan an apology, Nikki is again shown.

What is all this about? Nikki is not a drinker. I don’t think she would want Juan “to die”. (This was only spoken on the promo, not the main episode.) Certainly, Nikki is the LAST contestant I could see “straddling” Juan the way Victoria wants to. These two women have NOTHING in common at all. We still are in the dark here. After all, there is still the possibility that Nikki is F1. At least many here still feel there’s plenty of evidence.

One reason I initially thought Nikki was F1 in the beginning (before switching over to Clare after rewatching episode #2) was because of her curious edit in the “behind the scenes” Sunday show broadcast between episodes #1 and #2. She says “I can’t image what it would feel like to be one of the women who didn’t get a rose last night. It must be awful.” I first thought this means Nikki is never “rose-less”.

Now I am questioning if she IS, in fact, rejected and has a major breakdown. Lines like one brunette’s “I didn’t expect in a million years not to get a rose”, Amy’s “I didn’t set myself up for a heartache” and Lacy’s “It is hard for me just because I’m so consumed and so dedicated with my work and caring for people that I don’t have time to find a man” are part of her therapy.

If Clare’s storyline relates to Victoria’s… and, yes, she does cry behind a closed door in episode #3… the editors would have included a back-at-the-mansion shot of Clare speaking during these scenes. Yet they didn’t. Just as Chris Siegfried was missing in virtually all of the Brian/Stephanie business last season, Clare is nowhere around on screen during any of the Victoria business as if her problems have nothing to do with Victoria’s situation.

Juan tells the ladies that he feels bad for Victoria on account of how difficult this situation is and doesn’t want to judge her in any harsh way for her behavior. After Chelsie compliments him, Chantel says “Seeing him respond that way is just like, it’s amazing… y’know. He is such a gentleman and knows what he wants and it is so respectful for him to act in that manner“. Not sure which contestant her line is intended for, but it is clear that Juan should be forgiven for making somebody upset.

Episode #3: Cassandra’s date

Twice, Juan calls out Cassandra as an over-protective mother, a trait he himself shares as a parent.

“What I like about Cassandra is that she’s a mom. She’s a great mom, a very protective mom... and this is a big process and this is a long process and she’s deserves the time to focus on herself.”

These lines relate to Juan as equally as Cassandra. He has to focus on HIMSELF as well as Camilla. This is not JUST about finding a stepmother. Camilla has a real mother already whom she spends equal time with. This is about what Juan needs as well as his daughter.

Renee tells Juan later that her son Ben is well aware of what she is doing and she is not fussing so much about him seeing her kiss on TV and so forth. Yes, Juan was cautious around her and Cassandra since they must set examples for their sons, but Renee’s job this season is to push Juan out of the “boundary fence” he has constructed around himself.

Episode 4 Korea: Sharleen’s date

Regarding the Clare/Sharleen relationship. Each has had one criticism of each other, but seem to… from the way they interact in group situations… get along pretty well. When Sharleen says at the end of New Zealand that she feels others are a better match for him, the camera pans on Clare… suggesting that she feels Clare is the better match, along with Andi (shown secondly).

Sharleen on Clare (episode #3): Clare… she was the first to have a one on one. (splice) I think there could be a sort of underlying, like, slight possessiveness there.
(Not certain if that second line was intended for Clare or not, but the editors at least expect us to nthink so. Sharleen is quite skeptical of Andi’s “tick tock” speech and forces Andi to come clean that Clare really isn’t jealous of her as much as the situation. Consequently the cry in the room with Renee has nothing to do with Sharleen at all, but Juan avoiding her.)

Clare on Sharleen: I don’t know if I see chemistry, I guess you can say, in Sharleen and Juan Pablo’s relationship. I don’t think Sharleen and Juan Pablo are right for each other.
(While this definitely sounds like a “possessiveness” talk, it is important to note that Sharleen often says the same thing of herself and Juan, PI session after PI session.)

Juan gives Sharleen the rose on her date after these key lines.

Sharleen: I have dated somebody with a daughter before.
Juan: How was that?
Sharleen: I was not ready for that at all. At the time, I was kinda, like, I just… I just didn’t know what to do about it. Like I just… I just couldn’t get over, at the time, the fact that he had… how do I say this?
Juan: I think I know what you are trying to say.
Sharleen: That he had this ‘first’.
Juan: Gotcha. That you weren’t going to be the first one.
Sharleen: I was never going to share that first one.
Juan: How old was she?
Sharleen: She was four.
Juan: Hmmmm…
Sharleen VO: I just told him the truth. Hopefully it is not a deal breaker…

Juan gives her the rose because he appreciates her honesty. Juan has no trouble with a person who isn’t sure about Camilla or being ready to have more children as long as she is honest about telling him that. As he tells Danielle in a promo cut scene this episode, “I don’t want people to be showing me something that they’re not. I just don’t like that.” This would include people struggling to “be themselves”.

“I feel fantastic about Sharleen. You know, I appreciate a lot her honesty. Fortunately, she knows that I’m a dad and I have a daughter, so... if she’s here and taking the time off from her career, (it is) because she wants to find somebody and have a family. She’s the type of girl that I can see at the end. Who knows? Maybe she could be the one. She might be a soul mate.” (He says twice that Clare could be the one as well.)

One pattern I am noticing with the Juan/Clare relationship…

Every time there is an obstacle, she discusses it with him.

After crying to Renee in episode #3 (and there was no discussion about Juan kissing Sharleen behind that door, just Juan not reassuring her), she essentially tells Juan everything she was crying to Renee about. Whether we agree with her saying it isn’t a “jealousy issue” is up to us, but she made Juan aware that she needs reassurance.

Although many feel Juan didn’t exactly apologize for what he said in Vietnam on their New Zealand date, Clare says: “Those feelings of doubt that I kinda had earlier… I think are just a page in our story… and it is not about what you fight about, but how you handle it. That really puts Juan Pablo and I on a whole different level”.

JBF wrote:
Although many feel Juan didn’t exactly apologize for what he said in Vietnam on their New Zealand date, Clare says: “Those feelings of doubt that I kinda had earlier… I think are just a page in our story… and it is not about what you fight about, but how you handle it. That really puts Juan Pablo and I on a whole different level”.

I am not sure she still feels that way, from her teleconference:

Gina Scarpa:         And I was wondering if it was more difficult for you in that initial moment or having to watch it back so many months later?

Clare Crawley:      The rose ceremony?

Gina Scarpa:         Just the conversation between the two of you.

Clare Crawley:      The cocktail party (before the rose)…

Gina Scarpa:         Yes, the conversation between you two.

Clare Crawley:      I think it’s more just difficult to watch it now because – oh, you know what?  That’s a good question actually.

                            I think both then and now I didn’t understand where it was coming from.  Like I said, I still don’t regret it.  And so we did nothing wrong.  And when it’s a mutual thing, you don’t – and like I said as well in that episode, why didn’t you tell me then?
It doesn't sound like she got clarity and they moved on to happily ever after to me.
Gina Scarpa:         Right.

Clare Crawley:      Why didn’t you stop me then?  You’re a grown man.  I’m a grown woman.  I may cry a lot and I may be sensitive but I’m a grown woman and I can handle the truth.

                             And I don’t know.  I think I wish in the moment and even now that I would have been a little bit more verbal.  And you’ll see in the future episode – the next episode – that I stand up for myself.  And I take pride in that.  And sometimes I can be sensitive about things but I wish – it’s hard not saying me stand up more for myself, I guess, in the moment of that talk.

Gads .. Just a bit rag time LOL. Hard to follow her comments

Mirzam wrote:

JBF wrote:
Although many feel Juan didn’t exactly apologize for what he said in Vietnam on their New Zealand date, Clare says: “Those feelings of doubt that I kinda had earlier… I think are just a page in our story… and it is not about what you fight about, but how you handle it. That really puts Juan Pablo and I on a whole different level”.

I am not sure she still feels that way, from her teleconference:

Gina Scarpa:         And I was wondering if it was more difficult for you in that initial moment or having to watch it back so many months later?

Clare Crawley:      The rose ceremony?

Gina Scarpa:         Just the conversation between the two of you.

Clare Crawley:      The cocktail party (before the rose)…

Gina Scarpa:         Yes, the conversation between you two.

Clare Crawley:      I think it’s more just difficult to watch it now because – oh, you know what?  That’s a good question actually.

                            I think both then and now I didn’t understand where it was coming from.  Like I said, I still don’t regret it.  And so we did nothing wrong.  And when it’s a mutual thing, you don’t – and like I said as well in that episode, why didn’t you tell me then?
It doesn't sound like she got clarity and they moved on to happily ever after to me.
Gina Scarpa:         Right.

Clare Crawley:      Why didn’t you stop me then?  You’re a grown man.  I’m a grown woman.  I may cry a lot and I may be sensitive but I’m a grown woman and I can handle the truth.

                             And I don’t know.  I think I wish in the moment and even now that I would have been a little bit more verbal.  And you’ll see in the future episode – the next episode – that I stand up for myself.  And I take pride in that.  And sometimes I can be sensitive about things but I wish – it’s hard not saying me stand up more for myself, I guess, in the moment of that talk.

This is the post that give me the greatest pause. t4p

I do agree with the group that has been showing the Clare connection and quite frankly - I see no other BUILDING storyline.

But this still give me pause AND it does not seem like a handler has interfered or prompted Clares responses as some posters suggested earlier. Keep in mind that this is only a small part of a pretty lengthy interview and Clare is not going to have her do-no-reveal coaching cap on throughout. It seems to be this is the part where her doubts rose to the surface and peeped through the cracks. JMO.

nd4reality wrote:

Mirzam wrote:

JBF wrote:
Although many feel Juan didn’t exactly apologize for what he said in Vietnam on their New Zealand date, Clare says: “Those feelings of doubt that I kinda had earlier… I think are just a page in our story… and it is not about what you fight about, but how you handle it. That really puts Juan Pablo and I on a whole different level”.

I am not sure she still feels that way, from her teleconference:

Gina Scarpa:         And I was wondering if it was more difficult for you in that initial moment or having to watch it back so many months later?

Clare Crawley:      The rose ceremony?

Gina Scarpa:         Just the conversation between the two of you.

Clare Crawley:      The cocktail party (before the rose)…

Gina Scarpa:         Yes, the conversation between you two.

Clare Crawley:      I think it’s more just difficult to watch it now because – oh, you know what?  That’s a good question actually.

                            I think both then and now I didn’t understand where it was coming from.  Like I said, I still don’t regret it.  And so we did nothing wrong.  And when it’s a mutual thing, you don’t – and like I said as well in that episode, why didn’t you tell me then?
It doesn't sound like she got clarity and they moved on to happily ever after to me.
Gina Scarpa:         Right.

Clare Crawley:      Why didn’t you stop me then?  You’re a grown man.  I’m a grown woman.  I may cry a lot and I may be sensitive but I’m a grown woman and I can handle the truth.

                             And I don’t know.  I think I wish in the moment and even now that I would have been a little bit more verbal.  And you’ll see in the future episode – the next episode – that I stand up for myself.  And I take pride in that.  And sometimes I can be sensitive about things but I wish – it’s hard not saying me stand up more for myself, I guess, in the moment of that talk.

This is the post that give me the greatest pause. t4p

I do agree with the group that has been showing the Clare connection and quite frankly  - I see no other BUILDING storyline.

But this still give me pause AND it does not seem like a handler has interfered or prompted Clares responses as some posters suggested earlier. Keep in mind that this is only a small part of a pretty lengthy interview and Clare is not going to have her do-no-reveal coaching cap on throughout. It seems to be this is the part where her doubts rose to the surface and peeped through the cracks. JMO.

What I saw in that interview, with regards to being coached on what to say, is that I feel she was told to go into the interview with the mindset of where the show was at that time. She answered her questions based on the feelings she experienced when the incident occurred and the feelings that remained before they had their talk in NZ. At least, this is what I feel happened.

But then, when I think about the fact that the producers actually got Chris to walk about Seattle while being filmed handing out roses to women, I can also "see" them telling anyone who is still on the show and giving interviews to go out there and just sound as angry and bitter as you can. Has anyone else noticed how these girls and CH have consistently used the words "wishy-washy" or "hypocrite" to define JP in their interviews?

If they had another discussion after the FRC about what went down her delivery would have been different. And considering it is still a big deal to her - they would have.

Her interview just didn't give off that vibe. JMO.

JBF wrote:Couple of odds and ends of interest that tend to be overlooked, but just might be vital to The Storyline...

First up…

Episode #2: Victoria’s Meltdown…

Uh oh… people are not going to like what I am seeing here. Just read, pick apart and dispute. That’s what we do here.

Although Victoria semi-interrupts Nikki’s time with Juan with her drunk wandering, Nikki is all over this segment in PI sessions and conversations with Victoria (telling her “I think you need to tone it down”) and the other ladies when Victoria isn’t around. When Renee explains to a group that Juan tried to “reason with her”, Nikki is shown. When Kelly says Victoria owes Juan an apology, Nikki is again shown.

What is all this about? Nikki is not a drinker. I don’t think she would want Juan “to die”. (This was only spoken on the promo, not the main episode.) Certainly, Nikki is the LAST contestant I could see “straddling” Juan the way Victoria wants to. These two women have NOTHING in common at all. We still are in the dark here. After all, there is still the possibility that Nikki is F1. At least many here still feel there’s plenty of evidence.

One reason I initially thought Nikki was F1 in the beginning (before switching over to Clare after rewatching episode #2) was because of her curious edit in the “behind the scenes” Sunday show broadcast between episodes #1 and #2. She says “I can’t image what it would feel like to be one of the women who didn’t get a rose last night. It must be awful.” I first thought this means Nikki is never “rose-less”.

Now I am questioning if she IS, in fact, rejected and has a major breakdown. Lines like one brunette’s “I didn’t expect in a million years not to get a rose”, Amy’s “I didn’t set myself up for a heartache” and Lacy’s “It is hard for me just because I’m so consumed and so dedicated with my work and caring for people that I don’t have time to find a man” are part of her therapy.

If Clare’s storyline relates to Victoria’s… and, yes, she does cry behind a closed door in episode #3… the editors would have included a back-at-the-mansion shot of Clare speaking during these scenes. Yet they didn’t. Just as Chris Siegfried was missing in virtually all of the Brian/Stephanie business last season, Clare is nowhere around on screen during any of the Victoria business as if her problems have nothing to do with Victoria’s situation.

Juan tells the ladies that he feels bad for Victoria on account of how difficult this situation is and doesn’t want to judge her in any harsh way for her behavior. After Chelsie compliments him, Chantel says “Seeing him respond that way is just like, it’s amazing… y’know. He is such a gentleman and knows what he wants and it is so respectful for him to act in that manner“. Not sure which contestant her line is intended for, but it is clear that Juan should be forgiven for making somebody upset.

Episode #3: Cassandra’s date

Twice, Juan calls out Cassandra as an over-protective mother, a trait he himself shares as a parent.

“What I like about Cassandra is that she’s a mom. She’s a great mom, a very protective mom... and this is a big process and this is a long process and she’s deserves the time to focus on herself.”

These lines relate to Juan as equally as Cassandra. He has to focus on HIMSELF as well as Camilla. This is not JUST about finding a stepmother. Camilla has a real mother already whom she spends equal time with. This is about what Juan needs as well as his daughter.

Renee tells Juan later that her son Ben is well aware of what she is doing and she is not fussing so much about him seeing her kiss on TV and so forth. Yes, Juan was cautious around her and Cassandra since they must set examples for their sons, but Renee’s job this season is to push Juan out of the “boundary fence” he has constructed around himself.

Episode 4 Korea: Sharleen’s date

Regarding the Clare/Sharleen relationship. Each has had one criticism of each other, but seem to… from the way they interact in group situations… get along pretty well. When Sharleen says at the end of New Zealand that she feels others are a better match for him, the camera pans on Clare… suggesting that she feels Clare is the better match, along with Andi (shown secondly).

Sharleen on Clare (episode #3): Clare… she was the first to have a one on one. (splice) I think there could be a sort of underlying, like, slight possessiveness there.
(Not certain if that second line was intended for Clare or not, but the editors at least expect us to nthink so. Sharleen is quite skeptical of Andi’s “tick tock” speech and forces Andi to come clean that Clare really isn’t jealous of her as much as the situation. Consequently the cry in the room with Renee has nothing to do with Sharleen at all, but Juan avoiding her.)

Clare on Sharleen: I don’t know if I see chemistry, I guess you can say, in Sharleen and Juan Pablo’s relationship. I don’t think Sharleen and Juan Pablo are right for each other.
(While this definitely sounds like a “possessiveness” talk, it is important to note that Sharleen often says the same thing of herself and Juan, PI session after PI session.)

Juan gives Sharleen the rose on her date after these key lines.

Sharleen: I have dated somebody with a daughter before.
Juan: How was that?
Sharleen: I was not ready for that at all. At the time, I was kinda, like, I just… I just didn’t know what to do about it. Like I just… I just couldn’t get over, at the time, the fact that he had… how do I say this?
Juan: I think I know what you are trying to say.
Sharleen: That he had this ‘first’.
Juan: Gotcha. That you weren’t going to be the first one.
Sharleen: I was never going to share that first one.
Juan: How old was she?
Sharleen: She was four.
Juan: Hmmmm…
Sharleen VO: I just told him the truth. Hopefully it is not a deal breaker…

Juan gives her the rose because he appreciates her honesty. Juan has no trouble with a person who isn’t sure about Camilla or being ready to have more children as long as she is honest about telling him that. As he tells Danielle in a promo cut scene this episode, “I don’t want people to be showing me something that they’re not. I just don’t like that.” This would include people struggling to “be themselves”.

“I feel fantastic about Sharleen. You know, I appreciate a lot her honesty. Fortunately, she knows that I’m a dad and I have a daughter, so... if she’s here and taking the time off from her career, (it is) because she wants to find somebody and have a family. She’s the type of girl that I can see at the end. Who knows? Maybe she could be the one. She might be a soul mate.” (He says twice that Clare could be the one as well.)

One pattern I am noticing with the Juan/Clare relationship…

Every time there is an obstacle, she discusses it with him.

After crying to Renee in episode #3 (and there was no discussion about Juan kissing Sharleen behind that door, just Juan not reassuring her), she essentially tells Juan everything she was crying to Renee about. Whether we agree with her saying it isn’t a “jealousy issue” is up to us, but she made Juan aware that she needs reassurance.

Although many feel Juan didn’t exactly apologize for what he said in Vietnam on their New Zealand date, Clare says: “Those feelings of doubt that I kinda had earlier… I think are just a page in our story… and it is not about what you fight about, but how you handle it. That really puts Juan Pablo and I on a whole different level”.

JBF-San, a lengthy and good post, as usual. You know I leave all the in-show editing analyses to you and Mura and just stick to the season previews in making my own conclusions. However, there was something that jumped out at me in episode epi.3 which may further your argument above. Start the video below from the 1:18 mark and you'll see the camera change from JP to Nikki as Lucy is talking about leaving before it hurts more. Also the camera movement between the two moms when she says that everybody deserves love.



Everyone knows that I feel that Clare is the F1 (and if I'm wrong, so be it), based on the story I think was told in the season previews- and this is not because Clare was all over those previews, even I know better than to fall for that. Then there is that Vzla bracelet she wore in one of her time-travel PI's. I have also said that I am finding it difficult to connect with any of the girls this season, but at this point, I have to say that I fear for Nikki. The fact that she will be meeting his family tonight doesn't even give me any comfort. In whatever way it ended for them, I'm sure everyone has moved on by now. It's all good.

I think much subtle innuendo .. And some not so subtle. . Is being overlooked .. Or ignored .. In the Nikki edit .. And Andi as well

Jeepers wrote:I think much subtle innuendo .. And some not so subtle. . Is being overlooked .. Or ignored .. In the Nikki edit .. And Andi as well

   

Ugh! The interview that won't die.

I guess it is a necessity so that everybody here doesn't just "assume" that Clare is F1. We have to keep the arena open and this is the one piece of ammo that the opposing point of view can use, despite how nebulous and confusing the whole piece is.

Mirzam wrote:Clare Crawley:     I think both then and now I didn’t understand where it was coming from.

From production. They want Juan to be "as fair as possible" with his "time".

 Like I said, I still don’t regret it.  And so WE did nothing wrong.  And when it’s a mutual thing, you don’t – and like I said as well in that episode, why didn’t you tell me then?
It doesn't sound like she got clarity and they moved on to happily ever after to me.

It all sounds wishy washy like she is unsure how to answer without revealing more than she's supposed to. She can't discuss the conversation she had in New Zealand quite yet... not that we got all of their conversation in that episode anyway.

Oh there's a story behind this and Fleiss is trying to keep a lid on it for some reason or another. At this point, though, I am losing interest in even researching it further.

Yes, I strongly suspect that these two did MORE than just what we saw in the pool and ocean. Still can't get over how he managed a poolside "sneak" during a group date and manage to get dry that fast. No bikini straps visible before and after in her outfit. You know fully well ALL of the ladies would have picked up on it, since I am doubtful all of that undressing, making out and redressing could be done that quickly even if Juan really is Zorro.

Andi, Sharleen, Kat and others DID see them kissing in the boat... and it seems very foolhardy for Juan to do the pool portion while still on a date with them. We do, in fact, see Clare and Juan sit on a bench... and that was probably all they did when they were away from the group. Probably discussed when they would meet up later?

Here's what I am speculating: the pool session happened AFTER the group date, but edited in, as if it took place DURING it. This made Juan look "wrong" with his "taking time away from the others" logic on screen. He was even commenting on the ocean from the pool kissing session as if he was having the same idea she was... later.

Even the shooting of her going to his pad was weird. It was as if the handlers got all confused at how to construct a story around what they did spontaneously just in case Clare didn't wind up as F1... or maybe feared the other ladies would freak that he made up his mind about Clare that early and label him a (you pick the word). Who knows? I can't make heads or tails out of this situation. Yet there is so much lop and chop editing here.

Like... do we honestly think all Jordan Paul and Ashley did in Hong Kong was make-out against the window? He even told her in Taiwan that "things got a little wild". Like Juan saying the waves were wild "and we got a little wild too". Uh hmmm. Uh hmmm. As Wes Hayden often said "I was born at night, but not last night."

Of course, back in Ashley's season, they purposely chose a overnight date for Ben Flajnik simply to put JP into a state of rage. This time, they had Juan put Clare on the spot before the next rose ceremony. Different brainwashing, but same goal by the handlers.

Then again, the very fact that they DID show Poolside "Let's not kiss" and ocean frolic only confirms to me that Nikki, Andi or anybody else is NOT the F1 or, if they are, the breakup happened the same week.

Gina Scarpa:         Right.

Clare Crawley:      Why didn’t you stop me then?  You’re a grown man.  I’m a grown woman.  I may cry a lot and I may be sensitive but I’m a grown woman and I can handle the truth.

                             And I don’t know.  I think I wish in the moment and even now that I would have been a little bit more verbal.  And you’ll see in the future episode – the next episode – that I stand up for myself.  And I take pride in that.  And sometimes I can be sensitive about things but I wish – it’s hard not saying me stand up more for myself, I guess, in the moment of that talk.

Don't take this the wrong way. I think it is great that you keep bringing this up as something to discuss (even if I am tired of discussing it myself... nothing against you... just tired of the interview as topic). The problem here is that you have to read the rest of the interview and add it all together. Yes, this is a confusing paragraph. Is she mad for not standing up against Juan or production? Does it even matter anymore since she says she stands up for her self the next episode? I still think this season was just another lemon Fleiss had to make lemonade, but the flavor was a bit off in the execution.