Re: The Final One (F1) - Bachelorette 9 - Spoilers - Thread #2

by Piper61 Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:09 pm

ironcat wrote:I don't think it's an either/or situation. I think the producers encouraged the conversation to happen on camera, I think Michael was all too happy to bring it up because he (and most/all of the other guys) didn't like Ben and were suspicious of his motives, and I think Ben didn't go to the service partly because, knowing that his past behavior had already alienated him from the rest of the guys, didn't want to hang out with them any more than he had to.

And I agree that while it may be a "sticky" subject, learning/understanding a potential mate's attitude toward religion is very important, and if Ben is so conservative in his Christian beliefs that he would be uncomfortable just witnessing a Catholic mass (after all, nobody forces you to go up and take communion, as far as this Jew, who has attended many Catholic masses, knows), then that is something that Des should be aware of; for all we know she shares the same feelings as he does on the subject, and that's her right.

Don't mean to offend anyone.

I agree. And you're correct, no one is forced to take communion, nor made to feel bad if they don't, whether they're Catholic or not.

by melisma Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:12 pm

ironcat wrote:I don't think it's an either/or situation. I think the producers encouraged the conversation to happen on camera, I think Michael was all too happy to bring it up because he (and most/all of the other guys) didn't like Ben and were suspicious of his motives, and I think Ben didn't go to the service partly because, knowing that his past behavior had already alienated him from the rest of the guys, didn't want to hang out with them any more than he had to.

And I agree that while it may be a "sticky" subject, learning/understanding a potential mate's attitude toward religion is very important, and if Ben is so conservative in his Christian beliefs that he would be uncomfortable just witnessing a Catholic mass (after all, nobody forces you to go up and take communion, as far as this Jew, who has attended many Catholic masses, knows), then that is something that Des should be aware of; for all we know she shares the same feelings as he does on the subject, and that's her right.

Don't mean to offend anyone.

BINGO on the bolded!! Who would want to go anywhere with guys who hate you if it was only optional?? He most likely enjoyed some peace and quiet while they were gone. I am not enamored with Ben, but who knows that he didn't just go to another service at another church?? We are being played here.

by jcrbil Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:05 pm

Yes, Michael caught Ben being disingenuous... and that, not the specifics of what he did,was the important thing. Ben has been caught telling Des what she wants to hear- church/family, etc. Yet his actions did not support the importance of faith in his life. If faith is supremely important it doesn't matter who you attend worship with or where, really, but that you do it. He could have gone and asked to sit in another part of the church if he didn't want to spend time with the other guys. Or he could have asked to go to a different church. Or he could have said that while he didn't go to the service with the other guys he stayed back and read his Bible.

Earlier in that date we see he hasn't spoken with his son since they've been in Germany... and they'd been there several days by that time. Since he was on the two on one date he had had a day when there were only two others around (meaning there should have been an opportunity to call even with the time difference)- so now he's been "caught" twice. Michael is trying (very prosecutorially, yes) to have Des line up Ben's words with his actions- so she can see his character.

by Guest Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:55 pm

Columbia, MD wrote:I haven't chimed in on this discussion until now. Ben had the right not to go to the Easter mass if he didn't want to. Nobody should feel shunned because they chose not to go to a religious service. I do agree that the churches in Europe are beautiful but it doesn't mean you have to attend the services. I am not a Christian and if I were faced with the situation I would only have gone to see the architecture, etc.

I think we should get off the subject of religion before this place implodes. I've seen it happen elsewhere and don't want to see it happen here. JMHO FWIW.

I agree religion should not be a subject of arguments here. However, I think Ben opened himself to that criticism from Mike when he said it was so important for him to go to church every sunday.
To someone like Mike for who the truth is so important and who dislikes him so much already, that was just too easy!
I wouldn't mind Ben's behvaiour if it wasnt for the blatant lies. Being sneaky is one thing. Lying straight to people' face rubs me the wrong way.

by Guest Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:59 pm

ironcat wrote:I don't think it's an either/or situation. I think the producers encouraged the conversation to happen on camera, I think Michael was all too happy to bring it up because he (and most/all of the other guys) didn't like Ben and were suspicious of his motives, and I think Ben didn't go to the service partly because, knowing that his past behavior had already alienated him from the rest of the guys, didn't want to hang out with them any more than he had to.

And I agree that while it may be a "sticky" subject, learning/understanding a potential mate's attitude toward religion is very important, and if Ben is so conservative in his Christian beliefs that he would be uncomfortable just witnessing a Catholic mass (after all, nobody forces you to go up and take communion, as far as this Jew, who has attended many Catholic masses, knows), then that is something that Des should be aware of; for all we know she shares the same feelings as he does on the subject, and that's her right.

Don't mean to offend anyone.

I would agree with you on everything... except that Ben himself brought the subject of religion and going to mass every sunday... And that to me smells like BS. If religion was as important to him as he made it out to be (and she wasnt asking him about that BTW) then spending another hour with the guys would not have been an issue in light of spending an hour in Chuch.

by Guest Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:09 pm

We've seen many times someone go to lead about someone who is disingenuous. Usually never goes well, the lead asks for specific examples, no gives any and that's the end of that.

In this case Michael is able to highlight very clearly in front of Des specific examples of why the guys think this about Ben - talking about his son, and church to Des - actions showing something different when she's not around.

In a way I applaud him doing that way. But it makes such an awkward situation for Des and I think no one without kids should really pass any kind of judgement on the delicate and personal nature of parenting. Michael knows nothing about Ben as a dad or their family situation.

by BarbB222 Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:13 pm

Well we already have a video clip of Ben treating this like a competition . He will do and say anything to win. He's gumby man.
Btw they must not be showing us the half because even Chris doesn't like Ben.

by jcrbil Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:26 pm

Ben was clearly not well liked by the men... but I thought it was interesting that Des didn't remember his name when she was on Katie (and it's not as if she hasn't been watching it back!). I think that Ben was not very significant to her. That he is featured as much in the airing is clearly TPTB!

by Kashathediva Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:32 pm

jcrbil wrote:Ben was clearly not well liked by the men... but I thought it was interesting that Des didn't remember his name when she was on Katie (and it's not as if she hasn't been watching it back!). I think that Ben was not very significant to her. That he is featured as much in the airing is clearly TPTB!

Honestly, most of these men were probably not very significant to her other than her not wanting to intentionally go out of her way to be cruel to them when letting them go.
I think being able to get that glimpse into her and the machination of the show was gold(that slip in forgetting his name on Katie), only I do not think Ben was the exception, but probably the rule for most of the guys. She just wasn't that into them. It shows.

by moonchild Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:49 pm

I am loving this discussion. Kudos to everyone for keeping it civil and to the point.

Michael clearly wanted to show Ben as he sees him to Des. I don't think that his objective was to protect Des, but in a way he did. Ben offered up the perfect opportunity for Michael to do so. I think that what makes this tactic objectionable to some people is not that he did it, but what he said and how he said it. Prosecutors don't just say they are disgusted, they show that they are disgusted by the answers being given. It's probably ingrained in his normal behavior. I think if he had responded in a different way and not seemed so much like he was attacking Ben, people would feel differently about what went down.

I do question why Ben excused himself. Did he leave the table hoping that Des would follow him and it would give him time to get his story straight and not be in front of Michael who might call him on it if he is misleading Des.

I also have to question Ben for all of the guys to dislike him so much. Even Courtney, with all of her crazy behavior had a friend in the house that defended her.

But in the end, I'm with Kasha. Neither Ben nor Michael was going to be there at the FRC, it was just the order of how they went home.

by snowandcold Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:59 pm

Love_Me wrote:
snowandcold wrote:Hello everyone! Sadly this is my first post this season! So many Rl things going on but I am very happy that Brooks is the F1. I joined this site last season but didn't post much at all. Love the site and all the info!

snowandcold! Thanks for the kind words about our site. Glad you are here posting with us. :Smiley:

Awe thanks!

by snowandcold Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:01 pm

sanlee088 wrote:
Love_Me wrote:
snowandcold wrote:Hello everyone! Sadly this is my first post this season! So many Rl things going on but I am very happy that Brooks is the F1. I joined this site last season but didn't post much at all. Love the site and all the info!

snowandcold! Thanks for the kind words about our site. Glad you are here posting with us. :Smiley:

WELCOME snowandcold! Love your username.

Thanks

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