Bachelorette 13 - Rachel Lindsay - MTA - July 31 - *Sleuthing Spoilers* Discussion

I just watched the MTA. Allow me to say that I believe Rachel to be one of the, if not the, smartest and most well spoken women leads and/or contestant that the franchise has ever seen. She really does have it all. And she served as an excellent role model and comported herself quite nicely all season long.
That said, I found her to be a bit off-putting last night almost haughty and I found myself for the first time not liking her. (I still like her a lot, just not last night). She was very righteous and I can put you in your place last night. Yes, she was in an uncomfortable situation this season and did quite well. As much as some of the men had "uncomfortable" moments and they were discussed, I saw their anguish and disdain, but they seem to handle it in a much different manner, one more like I saw Rachel throughout her season. She made me uncomfortable last night. Am I alone in this? Just wondering.

nuts2uiam wrote:I just watched the MTA.  Allow me to say that I believe Rachel to be one of the, if not the, smartest and most well spoken women leads and/or contestant that the franchise has ever seen.  She really does have it all.  And she served as an excellent role model and comported herself quite nicely all season long.
That said, I found her to be a bit off-putting last night almost haughty and I found myself for the first time not liking her. (I still like her a lot, just not last night). She was very righteous and I can put you in your place last night. Yes, she was in an uncomfortable situation this season and did quite well. As much as some of the men had "uncomfortable" moments and they were discussed, I saw their anguish and disdain, but they seem to handle it in a much different manner, one more like I saw Rachel throughout her season. She made me uncomfortable last night.  Am I alone in this? Just wondering.

no you are not the only one. we discussed it live last night. she appeared quite cocky and diva'ish.
I think is is part of the deal. 1 week prior the finale, she is wanted all over the place and praised all over the place.
not the first bachelorette, not the last.
but yes, she was off putting last night. imo

I really think Rachel was a bit defensive last night due to the fact that one contestant - Dean, has made some fairly tacky remarks about her choice being driven by lust and a few other denigrating remarks about her and Bryan in defense of Peter in 5th grade girls' gym fashion (to Mario Lopez) and Fred going into this whole emotional entitlement posture where he states he assumed his childhood crush of the past two decades meant he should have been given special consideration.

This was a large group of opinionated men and Rachel. She did what she felt she needed to. What I think we saw was an articulate woman who fell back on her succinct lawyer-speak to navigate rough waters.

I found her to be gracious to most of the contestants, especially Matt and Adam. Tolerant of Dean in spite of his two-faced behavior, disgusted by the set-up that was Lee's hand-selection by the show and DeMario's unapologetic response to his set-up in the form of an invite of his "side piece" to create drama resulting in his dismissal.

Given the circumstances, I thought Rachel looked fabulous, carried herself well and handled herself just fine. I would have been personally disappointed if she had gone into Pollyanna, sweetness and light, apologetic mode because that is something I do not respect when it is not warranted and IMO it was not plus, for Rachel it would have been disingenuous to a fault. She kept it 100. That's my girl! JMO

SFoster wrote:Rachel has said in interviews that she was not in love with any of the men until after MTPs. She was falling in love with all of them during HTDs. She said in Spain that she never would have believed that she could feel the same way about 3 men "at the same damn time".  So imo she did not have a clear favorite from the beginning. I think that FDs are for solidifying her feelings but also solidifying which two will certainly propose. Judging from what Raven said  when the squad came on for the mud wrestling, Rachel was most interested in Eric. And she told her two friends in Dallas (MTP) that she thought Bryan was a douchebag at first (when did that opinion change?).  So I don't think she is going to say at the end that she knew from the moment he stepped out of the limo. She takes her time to decide, she doesn't believe in love at first sight, she believes in getting to know a person first, etc.  JMO

She can say that all she wants to, but I'm not buying it. She gave Bryan her first impression rose, and much later in the season, a $6,000 (?) watch. Bryan was a strong contender in the beginning, and her pick by Geneva, IMO. What I saw on her face and on Bryan's face when they finished up his hometown and her MTP was *relief*. They both wanted the visits to go well because they knew at that point that the parents were meeting their future spouse. That's why Rachel didn't blink when Bryan's mom said she would kill her if she hurt her son. That's why Rachel and Bryan were almost giddy after her MTP even though to us, it was a tough visit.

Honestly, I don't think that (after a certain point) Peter ever stood any more of a chance with her than Robby did for Jojo or Nick did for Kaitlyn. Yeah, there is definitely some feeling for the F2, but at that point, the lead knows who she is going to pick. And it's not the F2! I just hope that Rachel and Bryan refrain from throwing shade at Peter as "punishment" for letting his feelings get entangled to whatever degree.

Chgohighlife wrote:I really think Rachel was a bit defensive last night due to the fact that one contestant - Dean, has made some fairly tacky remarks about her choice being driven by lust and a few other denigrating remarks about her and Bryan in defense of Peter in 5th grade girls' gym fashion (to Mario Lopez) and Fred going into this whole emotional entitlement posture where he states he assumed his childhood crush of the past two decades meant he should have been given special consideration.

This was a large group of opinionated men and Rachel. She did what she felt she needed to. What I think we saw was an articulate woman who fell back on her succinct lawyer-speak to navigate rough waters.

I found her to be gracious to most of the contestants, especially Matt and Adam. Tolerant of Dean in spite of his two-faced behavior, disgusted by the set-up that was Lee's hand-selection by the show and DeMario's unapologetic response to his set-up in the form of an invite of his "side piece" to create drama resulting in his dismissal.

Given the circumstances, I thought Rachel looked fabulous, carried herself well and handled herself just fine. I would have been personally disappointed if she had gone into Pollyanna, sweetness and light, apologetic mode because that is something I do not respect when it is not warranted and IMO it was not plus, for Rachel it would have been disingenuous to a fault. She kept it 100. That's my girl! JMO

Chgohighlife wrote:I really think Rachel was a bit defensive last night due to the fact that one contestant - Dean, has made some fairly tacky remarks about her choice being driven by lust and a few other denigrating remarks about her and Bryan in defense of Peter in 5th grade girls' gym fashion (to Mario Lopez) Fred going into this whole emotional entitlement posture where he states he assumed his childhood crush of the past two decades meant he should have been given special consideration.

This was a large group of opinionated men and Rachel. She did what she felt she needed to. What I think we saw was an articulate woman who fell back on her succinct lawyer-speak to navigate rough waters.

I found her to be gracious to most of the contestants, especially Matt and Adam. Tolerant of Dean in spite of his two-faced behavior, disgusted by the set-up that was Lee's hand-selection by the show and DeMario's unapologetic response to his set-up in the form of an invite of his "side piece" to create drama resulting in his dismissal.

Given the circumstances, I thought Rachel looked fabulous, carried herself well and handled herself just fine. I would have been personally disappointed if she had gone into Pollyanna, sweetness and light, apologetic mode because that is something I do not respect when it is not warranted and IMO it was not plus, for Rachel it would have been disingenuous to a fault. She kept it 100. That's my girl! JMO

Dean's remark hasn't bothered me because although rather blunt, IMO it is accurate. To me, Rachel needs that strong physical attraction. I think that one of the most appealing things to her about Bryan was that his wooing was very physical from the get-go. She really didn't want to be the one to initiate things (as she would have had to do with Will.) She wants to be wanted, she wants to be pursued. I think it was pure aggravation for her that Peter, a man to whom she is strongly attracted, did not pursue her with a vigor equal to Bryan.

As for Fred, I'm not sure that he was looking for special consideration. He just wanted *some* consideration, but as far as Rachel was concerned, it was a total non-starter.

@Amethysts wrote:
She can say that all she wants to, but I'm not buying it. She gave Bryan her first impression rose, and much later in the season, a $6,000 (?) watch. Bryan was a strong contender in the beginning, and her pick by Geneva, IMO. What I saw on her face and on Bryan's face when they finished up his hometown and her MTP was *relief*. They both wanted the visits to go well because they knew at that point that the parents were meeting their future spouse. That's why Rachel didn't blink when Bryan's mom said she would kill her if she hurt her son. That's why Rachel and Bryan were almost giddy after her MTP even though to us, it was a tough visit.

Honestly, I don't think that (after a certain point) Peter ever stood any more of a chance with her than Robby did for Jojo or Nick did for Kaitlyn. Yeah, there is definitely some feeling for the F2, but at that point, the lead knows who she is going to pick. And it's not the F2! I just hope that Rachel and Bryan refrain from throwing shade at Peter as "punishment" for letting his feelings get entangled to whatever degree.

I agree with this.  I believe that this is why Peter behaved the way he did with Rachel.  Who wants to keep dating and competing for a heart that someone else clearly had.  He knew as well as Eric and some of the other guys that Bryan was the front runner and they were just seat fillers along for the ride.  I like Bryan but I don't dislike Peter.  I would behave the same way if I knew someone was leading me on and was already fallen for someone else.

nuts2uiam wrote:I just watched the MTA.  Allow me to say that I believe Rachel to be one of the, if not the, smartest and most well spoken women leads and/or contestant that the franchise has ever seen.  She really does have it all.  And she served as an excellent role model and comported herself quite nicely all season long.
That said, I found her to be a bit off-putting last night almost haughty and I found myself for the first time not liking her. (I still like her a lot, just not last night). She was very righteous and I can put you in your place last night. Yes, she was in an uncomfortable situation this season and did quite well. As much as some of the men had "uncomfortable" moments and they were discussed, I saw their anguish and disdain, but they seem to handle it in a much different manner, one more like I saw Rachel throughout her season. She made me uncomfortable last night.  Am I alone in this? Just wondering.

Nope. I felt the same way. Before the season started, I wasn't a big fan of her and thought I wouldn't make it through watching her whole season. Than I started watching and really, really liked her and how she carried herself. But than last night, she really annoyed me. I get she might not be happy with the edit or whatever but she just acted like such a diva in front of all the guys. Like she was too good for them. Whatever Rachel.

luvnunity wrote:

@Amethysts wrote:
She can say that all she wants to, but I'm not buying it. She gave Bryan her first impression rose, and much later in the season, a $6,000 (?) watch. Bryan was a strong contender in the beginning, and her pick by Geneva, IMO. What I saw on her face and on Bryan's face when they finished up his hometown and her MTP was *relief*. They both wanted the visits to go well because they knew at that point that the parents were meeting their future spouse. That's why Rachel didn't blink when Bryan's mom said she would kill her if she hurt her son. That's why Rachel and Bryan were almost giddy after her MTP even though to us, it was a tough visit.

Honestly, I don't think that (after a certain point) Peter ever stood any more of a chance with her than Robby did for Jojo or Nick did for Kaitlyn. Yeah, there is definitely some feeling for the F2, but at that point, the lead knows who she is going to pick. And it's not the F2! I just hope that Rachel and Bryan refrain from throwing shade at Peter as "punishment" for letting his feelings get entangled to whatever degree.

I agree with this.  I believe that this is why Peter behaved the way he did with Rachel.  Who wants to keep dating and competing for a heart that someone else clearly had.  He knew as well as Eric and some of the other guys that Bryan was the front runner and they were just seat fillers along for the ride.  I like Bryan but I don't dislike Peter.  I would behave the same way if I knew someone was leading me on and was already fallen for someone else.

If in the end Peter is F2, I hope he does not propose. Rachel makes statements like if we both want this to work someone has to bend and she has made it clear she needs a proposal. I hope he doesn't propose because he wants to be with her in the end only to be rejected. If this happens this will be the focus at the finale. There would be a lot of anger towards her and distract from her happy ending. I don't think this happens.... I hope it doesn't happen.JMO.

Rolly, I agree. The whole show has been focused on getting Peter to propose - so if he should finally realize that he can't live without her - it would be a hard slap in the face if she were to reject him (Peter).
Rachel seems like a careful, rational person. It seems like these dates such as walking around Madison, shopping for baby clothes, visiting with the priest are attempts to have their relationship as normal as possible, and to find out as much as possible about each other. She has told Peter she likes his nervousness in the beginning, then she likes him, and now she is falling in love (with him). She has not encouraged Bryan at all. She has not been in a hot tub with Bryan.
I realize the evidence strongly points to Bryan.
But are we to ignore her words that we will be surprised at who she picks?
How do her words that the greater the risk, the greater the reward - fit in with picking Bryan? What came to my mind is that she breaks off with Peter - takes a big chance that he will not admit to himself that he is in love with Rachel - only to have him finally realize in the end that he cannot live without her.
Her words that she now knows "he" is very much in love with her: For Peter - he gave in - he bended. For Bryan maybe that he didn't let R discourage him from loving her - ??
Given what we have seen - she does seem to be extremely happy when she is with Bryan. It's just that all the "firsts" comments and really the whole show - has been centered on Peter and the relationship that is inching along ...

I don't buy that Peter backed off just because he saw a connection with Bryan. So he's not going to fight for the girl if he really wants her? Only to later diss him on SM? He had the first 1:1, that was his perfect chance to show her and tell her, he was attracted to her, he is looking forward to the future, to getting to know her, rather than discussing if she would consider living in L.A. The body language during that date was for me so uncomfortable to watch.

The lead has said things to and about the F2 every single season whether they mean it, v/o's or are scripted. That's the nature of this show. The things Andi said to Nick almost convinced me he was the F1.

The lead has a job to do as far as making the storyboard for the F2 come to life. They know exactly who their F1 will be by this time. There's no clarity IMHO, it's all about the storyboard. Peter's has been he won't propose even though Rachel wants one. IMHO she doesn't want a proposal from him to begin with so now what? We create a story to make the most dramatic breakup ever. Her clarity will be she's not going to choose someone she has to work hard for the relationship. The guy is maybe promising to date, she doesn't want that. Even if his storyboard  was that he wants to propose, he'd be just another Robby IMHO.

I have never seen so much emphasis placed on a hot tub, IMO. Again, are we all forgetting the fact that Kaitlyn full on slept with another man before the Fantasy Suites, then still kept that man around until the end despite Shawn's near catatonic rage over that guy's mere presence and then she still picked Shawn and he still happily proposed and they're still together?

So Rachel was in a hot tub for a few minutes with Peter, well she was in one with Eric as well and it was Bryan's face she was equally practically swallowing only a few hours after meeting him on the first night.

But are we to ignore her words that we will be surprised at who she picks?

But almost every lead says that. Because what's the alternative, "oh it's totally obvious and you've probably figured it out already". Last season, in his blog before the finale, Nick wrote something about his journey not ending the way we necessarily thought. Um, it ended exactly as most had already figured out through the spoilers and sleuthing.

And if we want to focus on what Rachel is saying and not ignoring her words. Then are we just going to ignore how more than once now she's said that while she always went for the challenge and the person with who it was so hard because in her mind that meant it was real, but this time she didn't do that. And this time she chose the person who did have it all together, where it wasn't a struggle or a challenge. Does that not strongly indicate that she chose Bryan?

I don't buy that Peter backed off just because he saw a connection with Bryan. So he's not going to fight for the girl if he really wants her? Only to later diss him on SM? He had the first 1:1, that was his perfect chance to show her and tell her, he was attracted to her, he is looking forward to the future, to getting to know her, rather than discussing if she would consider living in L.A. The body language during that date was for me so uncomfortable to watch.

I agree. For me it's a cop-out excuse and a bit of revisionist history. And also talking out of both sides of the situation. Because on one hand it's, "well if he wasn't really into her and didn't really want her, he wouldn't be jealous". But then when people point out all the ways Peter just doesn't seem as into Rachel, it's suddenly, "well he realized early she wanted Bryan and backed off because why should he try when she wants someone else?"

And like you said, Peter had the first one on one, Peter had a date every single week, whether it was a group date or one on one, she went off with him in a hot tub that most can't stop bringing up as evidence of their amazing connection, sure she didn't give him the group date rose then but she gave it to him the next group date he was on. The infamous watch that so many keep holding onto didn't happen until much later in the season when Peter was already not seeming as invested in Rachel. It seems like for some it was up to Rachel to make Peter feel like he was the only man who mattered, despite the fact that the show he signed up for was that she would be dating multiple men. And because she didn't do that then she should expect that he would only give her crumbs of emotion because Peter must be made to feel like the only special and important one.