Bachelorette 13 - Rachel Lindsay - MTA - July 31 - *Sleuthing Spoilers* Discussion

Chgohighlife wrote:
I think I really get why Rachel is over it. This show has sucked the life out of her lead IMO by recruiting Lee to make the show all about race and promoting Peter incessantly to the detriment of the real F1. So little is shown about Rachel's men and relationships and what it turns out are a bunch of great guys that for many of them, it was like meeting them for the first time on MTA. If they tell me one more time about how awful a fine 6ft2 man with a great job, a PHD, a great business, staff and condo who has no, zero, nada bad press after 20 years of dating is - I will puke - so I can only imagine how she must feel as the woman who loves him.
Dean reduced Rachel and Bryan's entire loving relationship to her being so stupid, she must have made her decision based upon lust in an interview with Mario Lopez. Those are fighting words. All because he is more comfortable spooning Peter in pictures and wearing his clothes.
Then, Kenny was the tool they used to sabotage her season so, I don't care how many times he cries at the sight or, sound of his daughter, he had no respect for himself. He talked like trash and had zero focus on Rachel as anything other than a potential stepmom and role model with a paycheck. I'm soooo glad she told him she was disappointed. That was considerate.
And the language!!! My goodness was that really ABC during primetime? WTH was going on there?
DeMario? Really...that pathetic girl was his "side piece"/translation:whore?
Waboom? What? More waste of space?
Lee? Does anyone really think ABC had NO IDEA he was racist and would be a volatile addition to the most diverse cast, ever? They recruited him, he said.
And Frederic - I don't know him. She has known him her whole life and she wants nothing to do with him. Her right, her decision. I have no basis to question it.By the same token - I'm not judging her behavior. She looked beautiful and was a lot nicer than the situation warranted, IMO.

likeashipblown wrote:I respect everyone's take and perceptions on what they think they saw in Rachel during MTA, and my opinion will surely be in the minority, but I'm going to give it anyway. Lol.

I didn't see someone diva-ish or smug or uppity or any of the other adjectives that have been bandied about, which is everyone's right, and I respect the vantage points.

IMO... What I saw was someone who's defense mechanisms and insecurities may read to some as off-putting.

Rachel's insecure and very afraid of rejection and criticism and being vulnerable and being nakedly exposed as far as her emotions go. She has told us that very clearly. She has shown us that very clearly. She does not like to let people see her vulnerable. At all.

She has also shown it throughout the season. Something as simple as a guy thinking too long on whether he'll accept a rose from her causes a comment from her, all clear tells of insecurity, an insecurity she's admitted she has.

Compound that with what she's endured this season (whether it's part of the deal or what you signed up for)... The fault lines she's exposed due to the added racial component, on top of all of the regular stuff, being called monkey and horse routinely in social media comments when fans don't like who she keeps, having ABC dedicate part of her season to Lee and racial issue exploitation, being called stupid and only about sex if she picks certain people, having trusted guys who have proven to be petty and immature about who she chose,  having guys she let go go on media tours talking about how she's blinded, having to deal with a slew of things that the normal Bachelorette has to deal with and a ton more than the usual circumstances, as well...

All of that is a pretty potent cocktail for her coming across in a way that some may think is full of herself or whatever else, imo. Instead, from the moment she said the "branches are out" it was abundantly clear to me from my personal perspective that her guard was up and her defense mechanisms were in place.

She talks a good game a lot of the time, but if this season has proven anything, imo, is that she's so soft-hearted and fragile. She puts herself out there at great cost to herself emotionally. She's so sensitive. And these were guys that she'd allowed herself to be vulnerable with and some of them in their behaviors have no doubt hurt her in their behavior post-show and others she was afraid of how they felt about her and she doesn't want to be hated. She full stop said earlier in the season that she was "humbled to her core" for these guys.

Even her comment about the guys and the bloopers read as classically insecure to me as opposed to full of herself. It's interesting how we all read things so very differently, but I appreciate seeing the wide array of views.

I have so many sorority sisters who are ~strong, brilliant, and stunningly beautiful but come off a tad witchy or snotty or any number of things to some people when they get nervous and really, it's anything but that. Usually, it's way deeper and totally different and people misread them until they and unless they know them or they've taken the time to step back and think about it.  

Given how many people continue to gush about her sweetness (like people at her watch party this week), and given the videos of her that come from her signing every last thing for people and being sweet as pie with fans and kids (like behind the scenes at Extra a couple of weeks ago), and given the number of truly good character guys from her season, including Kenny, who was there, or Adam, who was there, who go out of their way to defend her even now...

I'm not prepared to drop any number of general labels on her-- especially not any labels that might describe her as a whole instead of in this moment in time. I'm definitely not getting entitled, or divaish, or any of it, and I'm not even of the belief that she was close to losing her chill. But I do think she was guarded and I do think her nerves manifest in a way, especially as a "strong" black female... She'll continue to get knocked and there will be much less tolerance for how her nerves manifest and way more judgment--if she's not serving Polyanna-- generally speaking, of course. Not assigning that to anyone's beliefs or comments in particular. But, yeah, while I'll allow for people to be human and grant them a lot of leeway in high pressure situations where the context is like such and I'd need to see way more under different circumstances to even begin... I do see how others can read it differently.

kerriway wrote:

likeashipblown wrote:I respect everyone's take and perceptions on what they think they saw in Rachel during MTA, and my opinion will surely be in the minority, but I'm going to give it anyway. Lol.

I didn't see someone diva-ish or smug or uppity or any of the other adjectives that have been bandied about, which is everyone's right, and I respect the vantage points.

IMO... What I saw was someone who's defense mechanisms and insecurities may read to some as off-putting.

Rachel's insecure and very afraid of rejection and criticism and being vulnerable and being nakedly exposed as far as her emotions go. She has told us that very clearly. She has shown us that very clearly. She does not like to let people see her vulnerable. At all.

She has also shown it throughout the season. Something as simple as a guy thinking too long on whether he'll accept a rose from her causes a comment from her, all clear tells of insecurity, an insecurity she's admitted she has.

Compound that with what she's endured this season (whether it's part of the deal or what you signed up for)... The fault lines she's exposed due to the added racial component, on top of all of the regular stuff, being called monkey and horse routinely in social media comments when fans don't like who she keeps, having ABC dedicate part of her season to Lee and racial issue exploitation, being called stupid and only about sex if she picks certain people, having trusted guys who have proven to be petty and immature about who she chose,  having guys she let go go on media tours talking about how she's blinded, having to deal with a slew of things that the normal Bachelorette has to deal with and a ton more than the usual circumstances, as well...

All of that is a pretty potent cocktail for her coming across in a way that some may think is full of herself or whatever else, imo. Instead, from the moment she said the "branches are out" it was abundantly clear to me from my personal perspective that her guard was up and her defense mechanisms were in place.

She talks a good game a lot of the time, but if this season has proven anything, imo, is that she's so soft-hearted and fragile. She puts herself out there at great cost to herself emotionally. She's so sensitive. And these were guys that she'd allowed herself to be vulnerable with and some of them in their behaviors have no doubt hurt her in their behavior post-show and others she was afraid of how they felt about her and she doesn't want to be hated. She full stop said earlier in the season that she was "humbled to her core" for these guys.

Even her comment about the guys and the bloopers read as classically insecure to me as opposed to full of herself. It's interesting how we all read things so very differently, but I appreciate seeing the wide array of views.

I have so many sorority sisters who are ~strong, brilliant, and stunningly beautiful but come off a tad witchy or snotty or any number of things to some people when they get nervous and really, it's anything but that. Usually, it's way deeper and totally different and people misread them until they and unless they know them or they've taken the time to step back and think about it.  

Given how many people continue to gush about her sweetness (like people at her watch party this week), and given the videos of her that come from her signing every last thing for people and being sweet as pie with fans and kids (like behind the scenes at Extra a couple of weeks ago), and given the number of truly good character guys from her season, including Kenny, who was there, or Adam, who was there, who go out of their way to defend her even now...

I'm not prepared to drop any number of general labels on her-- especially not any labels that might describe her as a whole instead of in this moment in time. I'm definitely not getting entitled, or divaish, or any of it, and I'm not even of the belief that she was close to losing her chill. But I do think she was guarded and I do think her nerves manifest in a way, especially as a "strong" black female... She'll continue to get knocked and there will be much less tolerance for how her nerves manifest and way more judgment--if she's not serving Polyanna-- generally speaking, of course. Not assigning that to anyone's beliefs or comments in particular. But, yeah, while I'll allow for people to be human and grant them a lot of leeway in high pressure situations where the context is like such and I'd need to see way more under different circumstances to even begin... I do see how others can read it differently.

Thank you for this. I think you could be right and I actually hope you are. I'm actually starting to replay things TV moments and interviews and what you're saying seems to fit.

likeashipblown wrote:No worries @kerriway.

@Chgohighlife I respect your take. We'll agree to disagree, I think.

And just to be clear about my sentiment so nobody twists it.

IMO... Insecurities, which she said she has, so I'm not just randomly assigning them to her, do not in any way keep people from being strong, nor does that imply they are weak. Insecurities also in no way mean people need pity. My sentiment said none of that, just to be clear.

Rachel is very strong, and very confident, very independent, and a slew of other positive attributes and I was not taking any of that away from her. But, insecurities and/or vulnerabilities can easily be reconciled in strong and confident people as they are in no way mutually exclusive.

And I do believe she cares what the guys on her season think about her to some extent. No doubt. These aren't random people, they're essentially ex-boyfriends, and she has said she likes to stay friends with exes. So, yes, I do believe the MTA was a more vulnerable moment for her, but I see your point.  

We do agree she's fabulous and great things lie ahead for her. I'm excited to watch her take on the world. No doubt.