Nick Viall - Bachelor 21 - Episode 8 Feb 20 - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

One more random thought - what Vanessa said last night is basically the debate we have on this forum every season...when did the lead know, was it F1 from the moment he saw her out of the limo, etc. And it's the basic argument that starts to turn testy every season...fans of the F1 allegedly dismissing the other relationships by opining that it was always the F1, fans of the other girls finding ways to show they were real contenders.

When Vanessa said something like 'we're at F4, if he doesn't know that it's me this far into the process then maybe I should evaluate where I thought we were'...I actually thought that was one of the more honest doubts we've been shown in a long time. It sort of felt like she was breaking the 4th wall because she was giving voice to our own online debates, but she wasn't really breaking any walls she was just honestly expressing a very real doubt that I'm sure ALL F1/F2's have at some point.

Dessler wrote:I think Rachel is not F2 because she is so guarded compared to Raven and Vanessa. They are in the hometown dates and she is not yet in love with Nick (seems like she is thinking about falling in love IMO). She did not give him any inkling or assurance about what/how she is feeling after HTD, she just said "alright, well bye".  If she is guarded, it makes it harder for Nick to fall in love with her. I hope she will be less guarded on her season for her sake.

I'm sure she will be because the situation will be different. With Nick she was competing against other women with no guarantee of where his heart was. On her season, she'll be in the driver's seat.

Regarding Nick and Vanessa's future potential and all the outside voices saying it won't last, *shrug* honestly, this whole show and premise is always a crap shoot. Yeah they may not last like many before them or they might prove the doubters wrong. I wholeheartedly admit that I was one of those who didn't give Shawn and Kaitlyn six months.

Because he was a whiny and needy mess during the season, there was the whole drama of her sleeping with Nick, they lived in separate countries and well there you go. Similarly, I know many thought Andi and Josh had a great chance to make it based on their living in the same state, the families apparently having a mutual love society and look how that turned out.

And remember Chris and Des? I didn't really watch that season until after but I watched the finale and I remember being shocked at how rude and harsh people were about them, especially when they seemed like two genuinely sweet and kind people to me. But some seemed almost angry by the ending and there was so much mocking of Chris being sloppy seconds because Brooks left and all the jokes about her only wanting Chris because he's the only one who stuck around, etc.

The fact is you just never know. At the end of the day, the logistics obstacles and questions existed for all the women if you think about it. It's just that this is a television show where they like their storylines so they focused on a specific for each. With Rachel, of course it was the race issue but does anyone think Rachel's family maybe weren't also wondering what they would do about the future if he picked her considering Rachel too has a career she loves in Dallas and a very impressive one at that? Would Nick be willing to move to Dallas? Or same with Raven who not just works somewhere but owns her own store. Would she have been willing to leave that and her family?

Again it's all just a crap shoot and the fact is, Nick having done this show enough, knowing there is so much expectation of his failing, would have had ample reason to bolt if he was unsure about Vanessa. He picks her because he loves her IMO, "flaws" and all (though I don't see Nick viewing Vanessa's expectation of being the most important to him as a flaw). And yeah it may not last but I don't think that would mean he should have picked someone else.

^^^My thoughts exactly! I never saw arrogance in Nick 1.0 nor do I see it with Vanessa. I see realness and how I would be if I really was in love with a guy dating 3 other women. She has to stay confident in order to let her feelings grow.

I agree too about Corinna. Finally she grew on me. I can see her on BIP and hope Robbie goes on cause they are a match. Her date was a bit heartbreaking to me. She leads with money and her sexually.

Ravens date was like a country music video. I so see her with Luke. Her relationship with Dad is very touching. My unspoiled daughter thinks she is out at f4 as their connection is more if friends.

Rachel is awesome and sweet to see Nick so giddy and giggly with her. She has a lovely family and will be great to see her let go and really fall for someone. I think Nick will always have a crush on Rachel but he is in love with Vanessa.

Sprite wrote:

happygolucky wrote:Nick 1.0 was called arrogant and overly confident for believing he had something special with Andi that couldn't have been matched with any other relationship she had ... yet he was never called entitled. Those who liked him (like me) were able to explain his arrogance as presumption of one who often resorts to analysis and observation of human behavior and weighting the options (in his head) ... what today I can ascribe to his need of having things under control for the purpose of balance - JMO (drawing conclusion from his AL interview)

IMO Vanessa's over-confidence is about their relationship, their bond, not herself as a person, and JMO that makes a difference ... because she can still have her insecurities and act "poorly" out of those personal insecurities, while having strong belief/faith in the relationship.
So I don't agree that she values herself above other women there, or that she feels to be special, but that their union is ... and I would assume everyone wants to think so about their own relationship with their partner. After all, she and Nick are first and only one who have to believe even when noone else around them do in order to make it work.

The bolded...and it clearly is special. It is the most obvious connection I have ever seen on this show. No wonder they had to butcher the edit to death to...somewhat...hide their connection.

I totally agree.

I'm so glad Vanessa's feelings are real and so invested. I've waited so long to see someone truly get him and know how much love he's worthy of.

If I"m not mistaken she's the only one up until last night who's acknowledged how deeply she cares for him.Their chemistry or relationship was so strong, TPTB DECLINED to show it to us since Ep 3 for the most part. That tells me their time together does stand apart. How could she not feel confident. If that seems harsh or entitled, to get it, I guess one just has to walk in her shoes.  After meeting Vanessa's family, IMO, if not before, she is totally a reflection of them. The tears in her sisters eyes as she warned Nick represented them all. I love that about them.

I'm not buying they didn't speak long and in depth about where they would live or how this would go once show wrapped if she's his F1 during FS or at some point later. I'm not saying V isn't going to struggle with being homesick. Who wouldn't be? But if she didn't love him enough to relocate, she would never have said yes. I've learned that much about her. She almost mirrors Nick 1.0. She's the one...no doubt about it.

I hung on long enough for him to find his Vanessa, thank goodness!If you are truly a Nick fan like me, it makes my heart smile the biggest smile. I can't help it.

With that being said, I enjoyed all the dates very much. I even loved Corrine's family. Her dad was great!

I'm not annoyed with V because she's doubting him or wonders where she stands. At f4 we're now used to the typical story lines of jealousy/doubt/is it me. It's *how* she does it. Last night much like her ILY weeks ago, it seems like she thinks she has it in the bag and the face she made after was telling. She came off angry and IMO it would've resulted in another moment like the poolside one where she scolded Nick like a teacher/student. I'm sure it's being saved for a future episode.

I really don't see how anything Vanessa said translates to her thinking she's better than the other women. Since when is love about who's better (what does that even mean)? I don't think I'm better than anyone just because someone happens to love me, in fact my list of faults would probably be several pages long. Love is about the strength of your connection with someone and how you make each other feel. It's not about your resume or whatever one might use to rank people. Vanessa thinking her connection with Nick is the strongest just tells me that she's not used to polygamy and that Nick has given her plenty of reason to feel like they have something special. Nothing wrong with that. She's clearly very invested and that's a good thing! I have nothing against Raven, but the way she was talking about possibly falling behind because she hasn't said ILY yet just made me sad. If you think your potential future husband is gonna run off with someone else simply because you didn't say ILY after a few dates, then it's not much a relationship to begin with. Everyone should expect more than that. JMO.

I don't think Raven and Luke have much in common other than being raised in and from the south.  So there may be some general background similarities, morals, values, etc., but that's about it, IMO.  I mean I was raised similar, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to date Luke.    And she doesn't even like country music, so IMO she'd either have to suck it up to listen to his shows or not attend and be called a bad girlfriend.  

Now if she wants to become a power couple on BIP then hooking up with IMO an in it for the fame-r like Chase, Robby, Luke,then go for it.  She certainly doesn't seem to have a problem with promoting herself/store since she got home and that is good business, so maybe they'd get along better than I think.  But with those guys, IMO, you better be ready for your every move and thought to be sold to the media for the money, attention and to constantly keep your name out and gain fans.  But then again, I wouldn't wish any of those three or for the malt part the rest of Jojo's, IMO, fame-ho guys on anyone.  . So it could just be me. . JMOAA

ReneeM wrote:

Lara wrote:Oh, no, Vanessa. Just when I was starting to soften on you..."I realized he DOES care about other people". STAHHHHPPPP.


IMO.

IMO She confirms how entitled she is! She's really just disregarded the other girls this entire season. Makes me wonder how she feels watching it back, especially Rachel.

I don't see it as her being/feeling entitled. I see it as her being REALLY invested and has been, IMO, reassured by Nick that their connection was extremely special. Know it is really hitting her that there is still a chance that she may not be the F1 and that Nick may very well feel as strongly for the other women as he does for her.

Raven and Luke are both monotone. The only time I saw Raven finally show raw emotion was with her father. I don't think Raven is even in bubble love. I usually see way more emotion and love between the F2 and the lead at this point. Something is seriously off with Raven. She seems to be just coasting. I wonder if tptb were busy telling her she might get the ette role if Nick doesn't choose her.

Both Raven's angst about not telling Nick she loves him and Vanessa's distress after hearing Nick asked all four fathers about a proposal smack of producer manipulation to me. IMO, TPTB knew by then the storyline for Nick and Vanessa. The only way to create the believable possibility of Vanessa walking away or turning down a proposal is to push her to the edge with doubt. JMO, but I think TPTB were chomping at the bit to get Vanessa to display that kind of extreme questioning of their relationship. (Think Ed Swiderski's description of this show being a "complete mindf**k.")

Tracy McMillan, who was one of the matchmakers on RFL, had some interesting tweets regarding last night's show. Her assessment of Vanessa's HTD and Vanessa's response to her dad were insightful, imo. (You can read all the tweets about the entire episode in her twitter feed.)

These tweets, in particular, offered an interesting perspective on Vanessa's reaction, imo.

tracy mcmillan ‏@TracyMcMillan 13h13 hours ago
Also, Nick talking to Vanessa's dad is the most grounded in his masculinity he's been all season. Interessssting.... #thebachelor

tracy mcmillan ‏@TracyMcMillan 13h13 hours ago
Vanessa is the only woman in this who has really questioned Nick's intentions. She's taking care of herself in a powerful way. #thebachelor

tracy mcmillan ‏@TracyMcMillan 13h13 hours ago
In relationships, you care for and love yourself first. Then you give to your partner from the overflow...

tracy mcmillan ‏@TracyMcMillan 13h13 hours ago
You want someone to stay because they're in love with you. Not because you told them you're in love with them.

source

Honestly, I can see both sides regarding Vanessa's reaction to finding out about Nick asking for the fathers' blessings (semantics aside). But I do appreciate how it was a very authentic reaction given how strongly she feels for him and how confident she feels about their relationship. It's easy to say that there are three other women, what did she expect? But it's another thing to be in that bubble of being in love, having these mutual feelings that belong to you as a couple; then finding out your partner has those same feelings for other women. It reminds me of what Nick said after he almost proposed to Kaitlyn. She said her feelings were real, but he almost refused to believe they were because he felt that real = exceeds anything she felt for anyone else.

Now, I do think it's possible to love more than one person. Humans are messy creatures like that. But I do think that in the moment, when someone is in love, they think what they have is unique and special and, in some ways, invincible. When her dad answered her question, you could see that it shook her and broke through that bubble.

Did I like the way she articulated her emotions in her last ITM? No, it seemed to disregard Nick's relationships with other women. But could I blame her for choosing to overlook those relationships for the sake of her sanity in this weird polyamorous experiment? Nah. I think it's a perfectly acceptable and human way of coping in this environment.

bleuberry wrote:I'm not annoyed with V because she's doubting him or wonders where she stands. At f4 we're now used to the typical story lines of jealousy/doubt/is it me. It's *how* she does it. Last night much like her ILY weeks ago, it seems like she thinks she has it in the bag and the face she made after was telling. She came off angry and IMO it would've resulted in another moment like the poolside one where she scolded Nick like a teacher/student. I'm sure it's being saved for a future episode.

Totally agree with the bolded. Her tone/facial expression was so off putting to me and I actually wouldn't be surprised if she half threatens to "give back the rose" again and like you mentioned, "scolded" him again as well

On the plus side re. this ep ... I enjoyed all the other HTD's including Corrine's, so yay!