Nick Viall - Bachelor 21 - Episode 8 Feb 20 - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

allykat wrote:One more random thought - what Vanessa said last night is basically the debate we have on this forum every season...when did the lead know, was it F1 from the moment he saw her out of the limo, etc. And it's the basic argument that starts to turn testy every season...fans of the F1 allegedly dismissing the other relationships by opining that it was always the F1, fans of the other girls finding ways to show they were real contenders.

When Vanessa said something like 'we're at F4, if he doesn't know that it's me this far into the process then maybe I should evaluate where I thought we were'...I actually thought that was one of the more honest doubts we've been shown in a long time. It sort of felt like she was breaking the 4th wall because she was giving voice to our own online debates, but she wasn't really breaking any walls she was just honestly expressing a very real doubt that I'm sure ALL F1/F2's have at some point.

Sure, it's happened before. However, the show lets us see what it wants us to see. Sometimes, the guy just picks a F1 to pick one and then break it off later.

Litta123 wrote:Both Raven's angst about not telling Nick she loves him and Vanessa's distress after hearing Nick asked all four fathers about a proposal smack of producer manipulation to me. IMO, TPTB knew by then the storyline for Nick and Vanessa. The only way to create the believable possibility of Vanessa walking away or turning down a proposal is to push her to the edge with doubt. JMO, but I think TPTB were chomping at the bit to get Vanessa to display that kind of extreme questioning of their relationship. (Think Ed Swiderski's description of this show being a "complete mindf**k.")

Tracy McMillan, who was one of the matchmakers on RFL, had some interesting tweets regarding last night's show. Her assessment of Vanessa's HTD and Vanessa's response to her dad were insightful, imo. (You can read all the tweets about the entire episode in her twitter feed.)

These tweets, in particular, offered an interesting perspective on Vanessa's reaction, imo.

tracy mcmillan ‏@TracyMcMillan 13h13 hours ago
Also, Nick talking to Vanessa's dad is the most grounded in his masculinity he's been all season. Interessssting.... #thebachelor

tracy mcmillan ‏@TracyMcMillan 13h13 hours ago
Vanessa is the only woman in this who has really questioned Nick's intentions. She's taking care of herself in a powerful way. #thebachelor

tracy mcmillan ‏@TracyMcMillan 13h13 hours ago
In relationships, you care for and love yourself first. Then you give to your partner from the overflow...

tracy mcmillan ‏@TracyMcMillan 13h13 hours ago
You want someone to stay because they're in love with you. Not because you told them you're in love with them.

source

Thanks for bringing this over. Well said IMO.

northernviewer wrote:Although Nick seems to be reassuring Vanessa constantly,I see Vanessa as straight up realistic about the process too...and thats causing her doubts.  Shes afraid of being another Nick ...so confident right up until the end and getting her heart broken at the FRC.   I dont see this as arrogance at all...I see as her having her eyes wide open to the realities of what can happen on this show.

ETA ... we all know shes F1 so obviously shes getting real assurances from him...its not all iin her head ... when we're  watching we know the outcome ...when shes saying those words ...she doesnt know how this turns out ...shes hopeful but scared.

The highlighted is it exactly. She is confident because he reassures her, but Nick was also reassured and look what happened. She has repeatedly said she hopes she doesn't become another Nick.

I think Vanessa is very lucky that Nick is the lead and not just because of their connection, but because his past experience from the show IMO is making him let go those who he thinks have feelings for him before they get too invested. Other than the one who he is truly into...Vanessa...the others are ones who I think he feels a connection to, but can tell aren't as invested. He seems to be actively trying to minimize their hurt. I wonder if this was one of his sticky points with tptb? Getting to drop those who were too vulnerable in exchange for giving them good Bette options?

mprssdbyu wrote:

Sprite wrote:

happygolucky wrote:Nick 1.0 was called arrogant and overly confident for believing he had something special with Andi that couldn't have been matched with any other relationship she had ... yet he was never called entitled. Those who liked him (like me) were able to explain his arrogance as presumption of one who often resorts to analysis and observation of human behavior and weighting the options (in his head) ... what today I can ascribe to his need of having things under control for the purpose of balance - JMO (drawing conclusion from his AL interview)

IMO Vanessa's over-confidence is about their relationship, their bond, not herself as a person, and JMO that makes a difference ... because she can still have her insecurities and act "poorly" out of those personal insecurities, while having strong belief/faith in the relationship.
So I don't agree that she values herself above other women there, or that she feels to be special, but that their union is ... and I would assume everyone wants to think so about their own relationship with their partner. After all, she and Nick are first and only one who have to believe even when noone else around them do in order to make it work.

The bolded...and it clearly is special. It is the most obvious connection I have ever seen on this show. No wonder they had to butcher the edit to death to...somewhat...hide their connection.

I totally agree.

I'm so glad Vanessa's feelings are real and so invested. I've waited so long to see someone truly get him and know how much love he's worthy of.

If I"m not mistaken she's the only one up until last night who's acknowledged how deeply she cares for him.Their chemistry or relationship was so strong, TPTB DECLINED to show it to us since Ep 3 for the most part. That tells me their time together does stand apart. How could she not feel confident. If that seems harsh or entitled, to get it, I guess one just has to walk in her shoes.  After meeting Vanessa's family, IMO, if not before, she is totally a reflection of them. The tears in her sisters eyes as she warned Nick represented them all. I love that about them.

I'm not buying they didn't speak long and in depth about where they would live or how this would go once show wrapped if she's his F1 during FS or at some point later. I'm not saying V isn't going to struggle with being homesick. Who wouldn't be? But if she didn't love him enough to relocate, she would never have said yes. I've learned that much about her. She almost mirrors Nick 1.0. She's the one...no doubt about it.

I hung on long enough for him to find his Vanessa, thank goodness!If you are truly a Nick fan like me, it makes my heart smile the biggest smile. I can't help it.

With that being said, I enjoyed all the dates very much. I even loved Corrine's family. Her dad was great!

One of the things that I am most looking forward to is Nick when he finally tells her how he feels. He has a really sweet smile when he is with her and I expect to see that out in full force ... along with plenty of tears ... on both sides ... and probably from me!

LOL @ #friendshipgoals


See .. we're basically best friends... and I thought there would be no more surprises. What could possible go wrong?! #everything #thebachelor #friendshipgoals by @nickviall

Poor Nick - two is just too many women trying to strangle him this season.

I found the segment of V's HTD early at the school interesting.  The tall bald student (couldn't catch his name) hugs Vanessa and tells her he loves her, cut to Nick saying that he knows how he feels about Vanessa and it is great to see so many others that feel the same way . . . . if that wasn't Nick subliminally telling us he loves V I don't know what is

I just re-watched Vanessa's comments about Nick asking other parents.  Not once did I hear her talked negatively about another one of the girls or their families.  She said that by Nick asking all other parents it made it less meaningful - she could have meant for all involved. It appeared more to me she was showing empathy towards all the families, as she said after someone asks you a question like that you expect a proposal to follow.  She knows Nick talked to others and gave them hope and obviously he isn't proposing to all four of them.

I have to say if my husband would have asked 3 other person's parents blessing I would have felt less special too.  She stated that if Nick was not sure about his feelings for her at this point then maybe she needed to re-evaluate.  She seemed to be mostly questioning herself and her own confidence in Nick's feelings.  This tends to be her personality and Nick knows that because he told her to 'stay out of her own head'.

I have to say the "blessing" word was key and even when V's dad asked Nick if he had asked other parents, you could tell he was trying to explain that he didn't quite ask them with the same words or nor did it have the same meaning behind it.

After Vanessa's HTD, I had the feeling that her family did some homework... just me? They seemed overwhelmingly sceptical. Like they'd been reading RS.

locoforbach wrote:I just re-watched Vanessa's comments about Nick asking other parents.  Not once did I hear her talked negatively about another one of the girls or their families.  She said that by Nick asking all other parents it made it less meaningful - she could have meant for all involved. It appeared more to me she was showing empathy towards all the families, as she said after someone asks you a question like that you expect a proposal to follow.  She knows Nick talked to others and gave them hope and obviously he isn't proposing to all four of them.

I have to say if my husband would have asked 3 other person's parents blessing I would have felt less special too.  She stated that if Nick was not sure about his feelings for her at this point then maybe she needed to re-evaluate.  She seemed to be mostly questioning herself and her own confidence in Nick's feelings.  This tends to be her personality and Nick knows that because he told her to 'stay out of her own head'.

I have to say the "blessing" word was key and even when V's dad asked Nick if he had asked other parents, you could tell he was trying to explain that he didn't quite ask them with the same words or nor did it have the same meaning behind it.

This entire exchange to me was interesting because Dad changed his mind. We didn't see the entire exchange, we only saw "well then you have my blessing." I think Nick got his point across to Dad or he had an "ah ha" moment with how tptb work. This also makes me think she was prompted to ask Dad if blessings were asked at the other HTD and Dad couldn't lie. JMO but all this is to have Vanessa a basket case by FRC.

Muslady wrote:

locoforbach wrote:I just re-watched Vanessa's comments about Nick asking other parents.  Not once did I hear her talked negatively about another one of the girls or their families.  She said that by Nick asking all other parents it made it less meaningful - she could have meant for all involved. It appeared more to me she was showing empathy towards all the families, as she said after someone asks you a question like that you expect a proposal to follow.  She knows Nick talked to others and gave them hope and obviously he isn't proposing to all four of them.

I have to say if my husband would have asked 3 other person's parents blessing I would have felt less special too.  She stated that if Nick was not sure about his feelings for her at this point then maybe she needed to re-evaluate.  She seemed to be mostly questioning herself and her own confidence in Nick's feelings.  This tends to be her personality and Nick knows that because he told her to 'stay out of her own head'.

I have to say the "blessing" word was key and even when V's dad asked Nick if he had asked other parents, you could tell he was trying to explain that he didn't quite ask them with the same words or nor did it have the same meaning behind it.

This entire exchange to me was interesting because Dad changed his mind.  We didn't see the entire exchange, we only saw "well then you have my blessing."  I think Nick got his point across to Dad or he had an "ah ha" moment with how tptb work.  This also makes me think she was prompted to ask Dad if blessings were asked at the other HTD and Dad couldn't lie.  JMO but all this is to have Vanessa a basket case by FRC.

I also thought it was really weird that stoic Mr. Grimaldi changed his mind so quickly about giving his blessing. There was definitely something cut from that conversation. And I think if it was enough to shift the conversation and convince Vanessa's dad to be more accepting of the idea of an engagement, they would've shown it. It leads me to believe that what Nick said specifically couldn't be shown because it would've given too much away.

When Nick was talking to Vanessa's dad her dad says he doesn't want her hurt and wants her to be happy and Nick says that he wants the exact same thing -- so won't hurt her and will make her happy (IMO). To me that was the reassurance V's dad needed to know that Vanessa was going to be the "one". JMO