Nick Viall - Bachelor 21 - Episode 2 Jan 9th - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

After episode 2, I've come over to the spoiled side. Week 1 I gave Nick the benefit of the doubt regarding the Liz situation, but you know the saying: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.  I don't have enough good will inside of me towards Nick to be able to suspend judgment and extend unconditional Pollyanna-like attitude towards him. Awkward situations like Liz showing up on your tv show are the result of your own lack of good judgment (IMO what occurred at the wedding) and TPTB's uncanny ability to take advantage of your poor decisions. Combine that with a wanna be fame ho who happens to be the bestie of one of the franchise's  biggest fame ho couple, and you have the means to dangle the fame carrot in front of the girl who is willing to air her own dirty laundry on tv in order to try for the heart of the guy she may or may not actually like and in order to gain some sort of infamy in this franchise as future capitol for who knows what. I have little to no respect for anyone who is willing to jump into the sack with someone they barely know ( and what they do know they don't really like) and are then willing to  broadcast their lack of class and showcase their lack of smarts  by allowing themselves to be used by this franchise for drama. I'm talking about both Nick and Liz here.

That wisp of respect that I was reserving for Nick evaporated last night. That tiny whirlpool of faith in his desire for true and quality love slipped down the drain last night. It's one thing to say you want to marry a good woman, it's another to actually behave in a way in which a good woman would ever be attracted to and want you. Sorry. If you can only be a Man in Search of a Wife while being filmed, then where are your head and heart? You take a dip in the Skank Pool whenever it is low tide, but then I'm supposed to believe that you truly want to sail away with your future  bride at the end of this season? Why? Why should I  believe that you have the capacity to make the right decisions, see the truly important qualities in someone else, when you cannot even display them in yourself? I'm sorry. You've lost my good will and you've lost my ability to root for you.

This season is shaping up to be Blob II (for me). I find myself thinking, Will this Suckface put us through an entire season of tonsil hockey, lowbrow girl drama, pick someone that I actually think is a nice person, only to stumble out of the gate and go nowhere IRL? I mean, why should Nick need a good woman to keep him in check? I understand that there is a show to produce, drama to be created for tv, but I just don't know if he is really ready to be the Man that any quality woman deserves. Not wishing him failure, but not going to be surprised if his own desire for infamy (past, present future) and TPTB's and media's desire to exploit all of that doesn't put so much negative pressure on the couple that it doesn't collapse under its own weight.

All JMHOAA.

mizzoufan wrote:Do people really like Vanessa for Vanessa or because she the winner?

This is my opinion purely: I think there are fans every season who are fans of the "romance". (I think this sounds nicer than fans of the winner). Almost no matter who the F1 is, there will be people on that bandwagon just because. If a person(fan) does not like that final one, they can't see how etc. This is pretty much every season from my pov.
There are viewers who just watch the show. They could care less.
There are viewers who watch the show realizing how little we see of the real people behind the edit we are shown.
There are people who fully believe the real person we are seeing is the edit shown. SO how could the lead let that person go on? How could the lead like that person? Etc.
I think to answer you question completely is difficult as there is a different pov for each person viewing.

Kashathediva wrote:

mizzoufan wrote:Do people really like Vanessa for Vanessa or because she the winner?

This is my opinion purely: I think there are fans every season who are fans of the "romance". (I think this sounds nicer than fans of the winner).  Almost no matter who the F1 is, there will be people on that bandwagon just because. If a person(fan) does not like that final one, they can't see how etc. This is pretty much every season from my pov.
There are viewers who just watch the show. They could care less.
There are viewers who watch the show realizing how little we see of the real people behind the edit we are shown.
There are people who fully believe the real person we are seeing is the edit shown. SO how could the lead let that person go on? How could the lead like that person? Etc.
I think to answer you question completely is difficult as there is a different pov for each person viewing.

I agree with your post for the most part. You have given me something to think about.

@MiaHawk      

I'm just here for the drama of the season. I hope Vanessa sees the light and allegedly doesn't want to move because of it.

Nick reminds me of when guys serial date and hook up all over the place but suddenly want to settle down with a 'good' wife material type of girl.

Well that was a "hot mess" of an episode. First off, I don't know what's going on with Nick but he just didn't have the energy or motivation in that episode.  The mornings seemed to be fine and then either he was drinking too much in the evenings or he was just letting TPTB dictate the scenes and he was going along with it.

Is this the warning from his friends, "that in the beginning he was taking things slow?" Was he being his overly analytical self trying to figure out who was there for the right reasons? He would have known by then who was the villain, right - hence he let Corrine interrupt so many times to establish the "who"?  It would be naive of me to think that he wouldn't have known at this point with his experience in the show.

I would normally talk about my faves at this point to put a period on the episode but I didn't have any last night.  Nonetheless, these ladies stood out (good or bad):

• Corrine - This poor girl.  She thinks that taking off her top and being overtly sexual is the best way to attract Nick.  She must not know him if she thought that the way to this man's heart is thru is little head.  No girlie, it's through the bigger one, the one higher up. Nuff said.
  
  
• Raven - Showed some spunk last night, calling Nick out though indirectly.  I liked that. Nick is being portrayed as the bad (sexual) boy and it would seem like ladies like Raven (who will call him out and one with cojones not the ones attached to the nose tho) will become front runners in Nick's book.
  
  
• Taylor - I think there was genuine interest from Nick towards Taylor (kiss was sweet) didn't seem forced and the conversation in the evening looked authentic. Nick seems interested in her.  Nick is very cerebral - it's the way to his heart.  Looks like the competition will be with Corrine, don't they have a 2/1?
  
  
• DanielleM - very sweet, classy, and confident.  Would have been perfect for Luke but I don't think she is Nick's type at all.  Maybe he was taking it slow because he wanted to explore other relationships developing (e.g. Vanessa, Rachel, and perhaps Taylor) so he was reserved with her.  He probably didn't want to hurt her feelings in the end too if he is starting to like other people more.
  
  
• Alexis - best part of the night with the "boobsday." She is the drama antedote.  We needed that outtake in the end to make the hot mess a little easier to handle.
  
  
• Liz - everything has been said, I think.  I feel that 9 months before the episode and at "____ & _____'s" wedding (I know - hangover this morning because I was stupid enough to take a sip/gulp everytime I heard that) Nick and Liz both knew it was a one night stand, they both didn't take action for 9 months. So Nick was genuinely confused as to Liz' motivations. "He said, she said" - but I'm on Nick's side on this if either of them wanted to explore it further either one would have taken action.  Nick always chases after what he wants.
  

I think there were several convos that they didn't show because didn't fit the story line for the episode - may also be hiding the obvious.  Anyways besides the "to be continued" it felt like "meh" to me.

Could there be two more opposite rose recipients than Corinne and Danielle M? No wonder the ladies are confused about what Nick is looking for.

Regarding Corinne, she really is reaching Courtney levels of villainy and distaste from both the other women and the viewers, but for different reasons. Whereas Courtney knew she was Ben's favorite all along, I have a hard time believing Corinne really thinks she's the front runner. I see her more as such a spoiled brat, used to getting everything she wants from Mommy and Daddy, even the right to think that she is "in charge" of their multi million dollar business, that she just believes she is entitled to behave in a way that the rest are not (see how her interrupting others is fine, but not the other way around). I wonder if Daddy is really as proud of her as she thinks.

Regarding Nick, I realize that the editing was very much in play here in making us believe the whole date revolved around Corinne stepping all over the other women, and that the producers no doubt "encouraged" him to go along with Corinne's obnoxiousness and even reward her with the rose, but I was really disappointed in him when he went along with "Janet Jacksoning" her. That was in incredibly poor taste, especially when you consider he did it in full view of half of the women who he is also "dating". Maybe I'm a prude, but if I were one of the women, I'd have a hard time with that one. If he couldn't down right refuse, he could at least have asked her to hold her girls and then put his hands over hers so it wouldn't come off as him being willing to disrespect his other "girlfriends" because he got to cop a feel. That was not well played, Nick. He's lucky none of them walked out.

Regarding Liz, kudos to Nick for handling it the way he did. I still think that Liz did this strictly to be on TV, but if she really had any interest in dating Nick, I agree that she handled this soooo poorly, and that she should have prepared a better reason for returning, even if it was BS, if she expected Nick to be ok with her prior behavior. How about, " Nick, when we met at Jade and Tanner's wedding (that's where they met, right? I may not have heard that right )I had a preconceived idea of you being a jerk because of the show, but I liked you once we got to talking/flirting and felt a spark, but then we got so drunk that the morning after our hookup, I was just sort of embarrassed and didn't really know how to deal with things, so I turned you down when you asked for my number because I figured you were as embarrassed as I was and only being "gentlemanly". But months later, when I saw the "real you" on BIP, I realized what a mistake I made to let you go, and decided that I would contact you after the show finished airing (assuming you didn't start dating someone else there). Then they went and made you the Bachelor, so I decided to throw caution to the wind and risk humiliating myself by coming here to ask for a second chance and to see if that spark was real." Wonder how Nick would have reacted to that.

@ironcat - Liz needed to have met you before this show so she could have stood a chance with Nick. Yep, she needed to have admitted her mistake and said, "I am here to see if you will give me another chance."

MiaHawk wrote:After episode 2, I've come over to the spoiled side. Week 1 I gave Nick the benefit of the doubt regarding the Liz situation, but you know the saying: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.  I don't have enough good will inside of me towards Nick to be able to suspend judgment and extend unconditional Pollyanna-like attitude towards him. Awkward situations like Liz showing up on your tv show are the result of your own lack of good judgment (IMO what occurred at the wedding) and TPTB's uncanny ability to take advantage of your poor decisions. Combine that with a wanna be fame ho who happens to be the bestie of one of the franchises  biggest fame ho couple, and you have the means to dangle the fame carrot in front of the girl who is willing to air her own dirty laundry on tv in order to try for the heart of the guy she may or may not actually like and in order to gain some sort of infamy in this franchise as future capitol for who knows what. I have little to no respect for anyone who is willing to jump into the sack with someone they barely know ( and what they do know they don't really like) and are then willing to  broadcast their lack of class and showcase their lack of smarts  by allowing themselves to be used by this franchise for drama. I'm talking about both Nick and Liz here.

That wisp of respect that I was reserving for Nick evaporated last night. That tiny whirlpool of suspended faith in his desire for true and quality love slipped down the drain last night. It's one thing to say you want to marry a good woman, it's another to actually behave in a way in which a good woman would ever be attracted to and want you. Sorry. If you can only be a Man in Search of a Wife while being filmed, then where are your head and heart? You take a dip in the Skank Pool whenever it is low tide, but then I'm supposed to believe that you truly want to sail away with your future  bride at the end of this season? Why? Why should I  believe that you have the capacity to make the right decisions, see the truly important qualities in someone else, when you cannot even display them in yourself? I'm sorry. You've lost my good will and you've lost my ability to root for you.

This season is shaping up to be Blob II (for me). I find myself thinking, Will this Suckface put us through an entire season of tonsil hockey, lowbrow girl drama, pick someone that I actually think is a nice person, only to stumble out of the gate and go nowhere IRL? I mean, why should Nick need a good woman to keep him in check? I understand that there is a show to produce, drama to be created for tv, but I just don't know if he is really ready to be the Man that any quality woman deserves. Not wishing him failure, but not going to be surprised if his own desire for infamy (past, present future) and TPTB's and media's desire to exploit all of that doesn't put so much negative pressure on the couple that it doesn't collapse under its own weight.

All JMHOAA.    

How was Nick supposed to know a year ago that he'd end up as the Bachelor and TPTB would send his ONS in a limo to greet him? I don't see what's poor judgement about hooking up with a woman you're attracted to, who is also good friends with people you know. He asked for her number even, so it wasn't a "hit it and quit it" scenario. She's the one who wanted to leave it as a ONS and then decided to use it later to get on TV. I genuinely don't see what Nick did wrong, unless you consider all ONS's fundamentally wrong and sleazy. I would never have one and most people would probably consider me a prude, yet I wouldn't deem anyone undateable just because they've had some ONS's in their past, unless it's a regular hobby or something they do while in a relationship. We don't know how many people Nick has slept with and in what circumstances, so I can't really judgy his worthiness to be married to a "good woman". What is that even and has Nick claimed that that is what he wants? It's certainly not how I'd describe Kaitlyn and he was willing to propose to her. JMO.

Re Corrine - How do we know this?

Lara wrote:

She was born in 1991, so she turned 25 right around when filming ended in mid-November. Not super old, but knowing she was 2 months away from 25 doesn't make me feel she can blame this completely on immaturity.

I don't think she's a b*tch either. She seems well-liked by most of the girls on Instagram; I just think she's attention-seeking and desperate, which is my least favorite combination in women. IMO.

GuardianAngel wrote:Re Corrine - How do we know this?

Lara wrote:

She was born in 1991, so she turned 25 right around when filming ended in mid-November. Not super old, but knowing she was 2 months away from 25 doesn't make me feel she can blame this completely on immaturity.

I don't think she's a b*tch either. She seems well-liked by most of the girls on Instagram; I just think she's attention-seeking and desperate, which is my least favorite combination in women. IMO.

It's on her IG.

Reagarding Nick's sex life (did I really just type that??), it's clear that, unlike the impression I originally had about him when he acted crushed that Andi had sex with him and then dumped him, making him sound to me like someone who viewed sex as something very intimate (my bad), he has no problem with casual sex and has probably had a lot of it with different women. He also dates around a lot it would seem, considering that in the past 3 years (since he started appearing on Bachelor franchise shows), he's had at least 6 different sex partners within the franchise alone. And who knows how many outside of the franchise during that time frame? Certainly his right (and at least he's using protection since if he knocked up anyone we would have heard about it, and he couldn't have gotten cast if he didn't pass the STD screening), but at 36, he clearly has been around the block, down the street, across town and then some.

he's had at least 6 different sex partners within the franchise alone.

Is that a fact or is it based on RS's claim of 7 women he knows Nick has been with. Because far as I know, the only ones that have been confirmed is Andi, Kaitlyn and Jen. Liz doesn't count because she wasn't part of the franchise yet when they slept together.

As for his feelings about casual sex, Nick was clear during his media interviews right after Andi's season that he doesn't and never had an issue with casual sex. His issue with Andi was that she knew his feelings for her at that point, where he stood and what he thought the whole thing meant to her. And so he didn't understand why, if she knew she was not only picking Josh but never in love with him, she'd go as far as sleeping with him.

How was Nick supposed to know a year ago that he'd end up as the Bachelor and TPTB would send his ONS in a limo to greet him? I don't see what's poor judgement about hooking up with a woman you're attracted to, who is also good friends with people you know. He asked for her number even, so it wasn't a "hit it and quit it" scenario. She's the one who wanted to leave it as a ONS and then decided to use it later to get on TV. I genuinely don't see what Nick did wrong, unless you consider all ONS's fundamentally wrong and sleazy. I would never have one and most people would probably consider me a prude, yet I wouldn't deem anyone undateable just because they've had some ONS's in their past, unless it's a regular hobby or something they do while in a relationship. We don't know how many people Nick has slept with and in what circumstances, so I can't really judgy his worthiness to be married to a "good woman". What is that even and has Nick claimed that that is what he wants? It's certainly not how I'd describe Kaitlyn and he was willing to propose to her. JMO.

All of this. Nick and Liz were two single consenting adults who hooked up. She chose to leave it as that and he respected that. Then he becomes the Bachelor, asks the producers not to bring on any exes and they spring someone he hooked up with almost a year before on him. And for the record, just because one draws their moral line a different place, doesn't mean others do as well. And therefore, who says Nick sees what happened with Liz as his showing poor judgement. He hooked up with a woman at a wedding while single and unattached. He didn't ask her to come on the show or decide to make that a focus of his season.

And I also disagree that this automatically means a person is not interested in settling down. I know plenty of people who had casual hookups and got married. Because their attitude was essentially "when the right guy/girl comes along, I'll be happy to settle down but until then, I'm not going to live my life as a monk".