Nick Viall - Bachelor 21 - Episode 2 Jan 9th - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

MiaHawk wrote:After episode 2, I've come over to the spoiled side. Week 1 I gave Nick the benefit of the doubt regarding the Liz situation, but you know the saying: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.  I don't have enough good will inside of me towards Nick to be able to suspend judgment and extend unconditional Pollyanna-like attitude towards him. Awkward situations like Liz showing up on your tv show are the result of your own lack of good judgment (IMO what occurred at the wedding) and TPTB's uncanny ability to take advantage of your poor decisions. Combine that with a wanna be fame ho who happens to be the bestie of one of the franchises  biggest fame ho couple, and you have the means to dangle the fame carrot in front of the girl who is willing to air her own dirty laundry on tv in order to try for the heart of the guy she may or may not actually like and in order to gain some sort of infamy in this franchise as future capitol for who knows what. I have little to no respect for anyone who is willing to jump into the sack with someone they barely know ( and what they do know they don't really like) and are then willing to  broadcast their lack of class and showcase their lack of smarts  by allowing themselves to be used by this franchise for drama. I'm talking about both Nick and Liz here.

That wisp of respect that I was reserving for Nick evaporated last night. That tiny whirlpool of suspended faith in his desire for true and quality love slipped down the drain last night. It's one thing to say you want to marry a good woman, it's another to actually behave in a way in which a good woman would ever be attracted to and want you. Sorry. If you can only be a Man in Search of a Wife while being filmed, then where are your head and heart? You take a dip in the Skank Pool whenever it is low tide, but then I'm supposed to believe that you truly want to sail away with your future  bride at the end of this season? Why? Why should I  believe that you have the capacity to make the right decisions, see the truly important qualities in someone else, when you cannot even display them in yourself? I'm sorry. You've lost my good will and you've lost my ability to root for you.

This season is shaping up to be Blob II (for me). I find myself thinking, Will this Suckface put us through an entire season of tonsil hockey, lowbrow girl drama, pick someone that I actually think is a nice person, only to stumble out of the gate and go nowhere IRL? I mean, why should Nick need a good woman to keep him in check? I understand that there is a show to produce, drama to be created for tv, but I just don't know if he is really ready to be the Man that any quality woman deserves. Not wishing him failure, but not going to be surprised if his own desire for infamy (past, present future) and TPTB's and media's desire to exploit all of that doesn't put so much negative pressure on the couple that it doesn't collapse under its own weight.

All JMHOAA.    

IA with you on many levels! A Bachelor disctates the tone a season takes imo. Nick is 35 and seems to be enjoying the "sexual" tone the season is taking a little too much. It kind of feels like every girl has to sex it up to get his attention. happy boob day? Janet jackson with Corrine? Even the sex with Liz.
I dont know that I would want to compete for a man I have to call out on his bullcrap to get him to be serious about a relationship.
I am indifferent in how I have felt about Nick and nothing has endeared me more to him or made me hate him.
I wish him and his F1 all the luck in the world but in my world, Nick isnt a catch.

Even on his interview rounds he is still talking about how he didnt mind Corrine's shenanigans.

All imo

As far as the whole topic of sex, imo, it has many different meanings depending on the person and the situation.
Even with the same person it can have different symbolism. It's been discussed previously here, I"m pretty sure.
As far as STD testing, there are things production does not test for. So that's a grain of salt. Gonnorhea and syph are the easy ones to deal with.

ironcat wrote:Reagarding Nick's sex life (did I really just type that??), it's clear that, unlike the impression I originally had about him when he acted crushed that Andi had sex with him and then dumped him, making him sound to me like someone who viewed sex as something very intimate (my bad), he has no problem with casual sex and has probably had a lot of it with different women.  He also dates around a lot it would seem, considering that in the past 3 years (since he started appearing on Bachelor franchise shows), he's had at least 6 different sex partners within the franchise alone.  And who knows how many outside of the franchise during that time frame?  Certainly his right (and at least he's using protection since if he knocked up anyone we would have heard about it, and he couldn't have gotten cast if he didn't pass the STD screening), but at 36, he clearly has been around the block, down the street, across town and then some.

Maybe Nick should take a page out of Sean's book and go the virgin route until he has a woman married to him because sleeping with these ladies isn't doing him any favors since he first slept with Andi and she dropped him, Slept with Kaitlyn she dropped him and had a ons with Liz and she didn't even want him to have her number... I'm beginning to think Nick isn't that good between the sheets. lolol

All 3 of those ladies wanted to go back for more. One of them did. Just saying.

LoveDovez wrote:

ironcat wrote:Reagarding Nick's sex life (did I really just type that??), it's clear that, unlike the impression I originally had about him when he acted crushed that Andi had sex with him and then dumped him, making him sound to me like someone who viewed sex as something very intimate (my bad), he has no problem with casual sex and has probably had a lot of it with different women.  He also dates around a lot it would seem, considering that in the past 3 years (since he started appearing on Bachelor franchise shows), he's had at least 6 different sex partners within the franchise alone.  And who knows how many outside of the franchise during that time frame?  Certainly his right (and at least he's using protection since if he knocked up anyone we would have heard about it, and he couldn't have gotten cast if he didn't pass the STD screening), but at 36, he clearly has been around the block, down the street, across town and then some.

Maybe Nick should take a page out of Sean's book and go the virgin route until he has a woman married to him because sleeping with these ladies isn't doing him any favors since he first slept with Andi and she dropped him, Slept with Kaitlyn she dropped him and had a ons with Liz and she didn't even want him to have her number... I'm beginning to think Nick isn't that good between the sheets. lolol

I disagree, he should keep on going to gain experience, unless you are saying he needs to hide his shortcomings until the wedding night? IMO - all in good fun!

Corrine is the most Nick-like contestant, **IMO**, as she's sexual and isn't afraid to steal him and doesn't get along with the other contestants. It makes sense to me that he understood her well enough to bring her to final four. I'm sure it was motivated by producers, but I do think it was nick's decision. He strikes me as someone who loves having his ego stroked and Corrine is perfect for that. To behave like that with Corrine, when his final two girls were there just seems odd to me. I also think that nick is just very aware of cameras and making good television. That just makes the whole thing even more artificial to me, as I felt the best moments from the show are when they are somewhat unexpected.

I agree that a lot of these women seem like they're too good for nick. Certainly Danielle m, Rachel, and Vanessa. IMO.

lleyki wrote:

he's had at least 6 different sex partners within the franchise alone.

Is that a fact or is it based on RS's claim of 7 women he knows Nick has been with. Because far as I know, the only ones that have been confirmed is Andi, Kaitlyn and Jen. Liz doesn't count because she wasn't part of the franchise yet when they slept together.

As for his feelings about casual sex, Nick was clear during his media interviews right after Andi's season that he doesn't and never had an issue with casual sex. His issue with Andi was that she knew his feelings for her at that point, where he stood and what he thought the whole thing meant to her. And so he didn't understand why, if she knew she was not only picking Josh but never in love with him, she'd go as far as sleeping with him.

I was counting 6 as follows- Andi, Kaitlyn, Jen, Liz (she is now within the franchise), Vanessa, then between Rachel, Raven and the 2-3 RS claims he hooked up with, I figure he at least hooked up with one of them.  And as to Nick's attitude about sex, I was only commenting on MY OWN personal initial impression of Nick when he acted so devastated months after the act on Andi's ATFR (before he went on his media tour and explained his sex philosophy, thus disabusing me of that notion).

mindless wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:After episode 2, I've come over to the spoiled side. Week 1 I gave Nick the benefit of the doubt regarding the Liz situation, but you know the saying: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.  I don't have enough good will inside of me towards Nick to be able to suspend judgment and extend unconditional Pollyanna-like attitude towards him. Awkward situations like Liz showing up on your tv show are the result of your own lack of good judgment (IMO what occurred at the wedding) and TPTB's uncanny ability to take advantage of your poor decisions. Combine that with a wanna be fame ho who happens to be the bestie of one of the franchises  biggest fame ho couple, and you have the means to dangle the fame carrot in front of the girl who is willing to air her own dirty laundry on tv in order to try for the heart of the guy she may or may not actually like and in order to gain some sort of infamy in this franchise as future capitol for who knows what. I have little to no respect for anyone who is willing to jump into the sack with someone they barely know ( and what they do know they don't really like) and are then willing to  broadcast their lack of class and showcase their lack of smarts  by allowing themselves to be used by this franchise for drama. I'm talking about both Nick and Liz here.

That wisp of respect that I was reserving for Nick evaporated last night. That tiny whirlpool of suspended faith in his desire for true and quality love slipped down the drain last night. It's one thing to say you want to marry a good woman, it's another to actually behave in a way in which a good woman would ever be attracted to and want you. Sorry. If you can only be a Man in Search of a Wife while being filmed, then where are your head and heart? You take a dip in the Skank Pool whenever it is low tide, but then I'm supposed to believe that you truly want to sail away with your future  bride at the end of this season? Why? Why should I  believe that you have the capacity to make the right decisions, see the truly important qualities in someone else, when you cannot even display them in yourself? I'm sorry. You've lost my good will and you've lost my ability to root for you.

This season is shaping up to be Blob II (for me). I find myself thinking, Will this Suckface put us through an entire season of tonsil hockey, lowbrow girl drama, pick someone that I actually think is a nice person, only to stumble out of the gate and go nowhere IRL? I mean, why should Nick need a good woman to keep him in check? I understand that there is a show to produce, drama to be created for tv, but I just don't know if he is really ready to be the Man that any quality woman deserves. Not wishing him failure, but not going to be surprised if his own desire for infamy (past, present future) and TPTB's and media's desire to exploit all of that doesn't put so much negative pressure on the couple that it doesn't collapse under its own weight.

All JMHOAA.    

How was Nick supposed to know a year ago that he'd end up as the Bachelor and TPTB would send his ONS in a limo to greet him? I don't see what's poor judgement about hooking up with a woman you're attracted to, who is also good friends with people you know. He asked for her number even, so it wasn't a "hit it and quit it" scenario. She's the one who wanted to leave it as a ONS and then decided to use it later to get on TV. I genuinely don't see what Nick did wrong, unless you consider all ONS's fundamentally wrong and sleazy. I would never have one and most people would probably consider me a prude, yet I wouldn't deem anyone undateable just because they've had some ONS's in their past, unless it's a regular hobby or something they do while in a relationship. We don't know how many people Nick has slept with and in what circumstances, so I can't really judgy his worthiness to be married to a "good woman". What is that even and has Nick claimed that that is what he wants? It's certainly not how I'd describe Kaitlyn and he was willing to propose to her. JMO.

It is my personal opinion that having a ONS is not desirable behavior. Other people are entitled to their own opinions. To me, this Liz situation illustrates some of the reasons why I think ONS are not a good decision to make. Whether he, she, or both were drunk, it was still a choice that they each made.

She was willing to cash in on her night with him, in order to be a character on this tv show. TPTB cast her specifically because she had sex with Nick because this goes along with the sexual-Nick storyline that they have been writing for several seasons. To me, it shows Liz's lack of class to trade her private moment with Nick for a chance to go onto tv, regardless of what she was hoping to get out of that appearance. Based upon how Liz was willing to talk to Kristen (?) in detail about what occurred at the wedding, it was clear that Liz didn't want to build upon a nice memory with Nick to grow a relationship. She was willing to throw Nick under the bus, at TPTB's request, to spill the details to another contestant, to create drama, to confront Nick in front of an audience at that museum. That entire date scenario was created in order for the producers to exploit the ONS for tv drama. TPTB are not Nick's friend and not Liz's friend. But, because Liz went along with TPTB's wishes, that makes her a willing participant in the exploitation. So, to me, Liz showed poor judgment twice-once with the ONS and again with her exploitation of it on national tv. Both, to me, are classless, with the exploitation being more classless than the act itself. To me they both show lack of self-respect. That is my personal opinion based on how I was raised and my opinions of what sex should mean.

As for Nick, I think he handled the exploitation fairly well. I'm sure that he was forced to keep Liz around on the first night. She needed to be there only as long as necessary for TPTB to use her, hence, Nick was allowed to send her home week 2. They created that stupid date for episode 2, squeezed as much sleaze out of it as possible in order to firm up Nick's storyline. Corrine is the other supporting character to this storyline.

I think that this Liz situation illustrates one of the reasons why ONS are a poor choice. IMO, He was willing to have sex with basically a stranger, with little forethought or concern for the character and values of the person whom he schmooped.  To me, that is not a classy, mature, smart  behavior. JMHOAA.

True Love is not reserved only for Perfect People. All people are flawed. I don't think that Nick is a horrible person. I just don't think I can muster up the energy to feverishly root for him. I've met people in my life-people that I like and enjoy- but they're people that seem to always be involved in drama. Chaos follows them around in life. What I've witnessed in my real life is that these people (some of whom are sweet, kind, fun, and have admirable traits) also have the behaviors that attract unnecessary drama. They don't make good choices. They fly by the seat of their pants in areas of their life that, IMO, deserve much more attention and care. And while I share some of my time with people of this nature, I also find that the older I get, the less patience and tolerance I have for their drama. I suppose, I feel this way about Nick. JMHOAA.

After watching episodes 1 & 2, I like this group of girls, and I like Nick as the lead. He's a bit confusing, tbh, in what he's looking for, but I don't think he goes only for his 'type'. I think he goes with the flow and feel of things. I don't think Danielle M is his 'type', but they had a very meaningful conversation, and I adore her. I think he can read between the lines, that Corinne is all drama, but he doesn't care, he likes her attitude and forwardness. We didn't see much of Vanessa, if she's the 'winner', I need to see more.

I LOVE Alexis! She's a sweetheart, doesn't take herself too seriously, and brings the joy and laugh to every situation.

As for Liz. They hooked up, had fun, and she didn't want his number. She had every opportunity to contact him, she didn't, until he was the bachelor. Why should Nick have pursued her, when she showed no interest in him? Her tears were hilarious, and I think Nick took a bit too much joy in dumping her so publicly. I'm also lmao at the 'shock' the other girls have, that Nick had a ons 9 months ago.

ironcat wrote:Reagarding Nick's sex life (did I really just type that??), it's clear that, unlike the impression I originally had about him when he acted crushed that Andi had sex with him and then dumped him, making him sound to me like someone who viewed sex as something very intimate (my bad), he has no problem with casual sex and has probably had a lot of it with different women.  He also dates around a lot it would seem, considering that in the past 3 years (since he started appearing on Bachelor franchise shows), he's had at least 6 different sex partners within the franchise alone.  And who knows how many outside of the franchise during that time frame?  Certainly his right (and at least he's using protection since if he knocked up anyone we would have heard about it, and he couldn't have gotten cast if he didn't pass the STD screening), but at 36, he clearly has been around the block, down the street, across town and then some.

lleyki wrote:As for his feelings about casual sex, Nick was clear during his media interviews right after Andi's season that he doesn't and never had an issue with casual sex. His issue with Andi was that she knew his feelings for her at that point, where he stood and what he thought the whole thing meant to her. And so he didn't understand why, if she knew she was not only picking Josh but never in love with him, she'd go as far as sleeping with him.

This is purely conjecture on my part since I don’t know Nick personally and I’m basing my opinion on what I’ve seen of him on TV but I don’t think both positions are as divergent as some see it. In other words – I do think the idea that Nick thought of sex as something intimate was very true during Andi’s season but his perspective has changed since then.

I think most of us agree that the Nick of Andi’s season is not the same guy we see on TV right now and his views on sex may also be part of his transformation. lleyki, you’re right that he made clear in all his post-ATFR interviews that he has no problem with casual sex but Ironcat I also think he did take sex more seriously then. Using myself as an example – I have no issues with casual sex and don’t judge anyone who indulges in it. But it does not work for me, I have to feel connected to the person. So I can see how and why Nick would say that there is nothing wrong with casual sex but have had different expectations for himself.

Now this is where most of my conjecture comes from. I truly believe that Nick fell in love with Andi during that season and was devastated when they broke up. He’s not that great of an actor and his face when she dumped him and during the after-show is very telling. Plus all the steps he took to try to talk to her. I know some imagine this to be all a form of manipulation but I don’t think so and never did.

Everything we’ve seen since then IMO is a reaction to getting his heart broken. The infatuation with Kaitlyn, the makeover, the “fame-whoring” or in his words “YOLOing” emerge out of this. Recall after the first season he went back to his regular life for the most part, and to me it seemed like he was going through the motions trying to get back to normal but still in the heartbreak stage. I know it takes some people a very long time to get over a heartbreak and Nick strikes me as the sort. Of course seeing your ex in the public eye while you’re trying to get over them is not easy, which made Nick somewhat desperate to truly heal.

I do think he used Kaitlyn as a means to heal, she was definitely a rebound and when that failed also – but in a very public and humiliating way – he started compensating and this is what we now see. Being very image-conscious, engaging in casual sex and the modeling are all tools to make him feel better about himself and deal with the repercussions of these previous break-ups.

I don’t think it makes him a bad guy but I’d love to see him take a step back and truly deal with the emotional toll of everything that happened in the last couple of years. It’s like there is some denial going on, and I truly hope he found someone worthwhile on this season that would return him to earth, but somehow I doubt it.

Sorry for the long post and I hope this is not too off-topic.

I think he's enjoying the sexual nature of his season. He was teasing on Twitter that the Corrine stuff would be 'kind of amazing' yesterday. Uhh yeah. Pass.

bleuberry wrote:I think he's enjoying the sexual nature of his season. He was teasing on Twitter that the Corrine stuff would be 'kind of amazing' yesterday. Uhh yeah. Pass.

He still not out of the woods. They can still edit and make his life miserable. He is just doing his job and promoting the show like a good little soldier.

My tell is always what happens post show. Buckle down it's going to be a bumpy ride.