Bachelor 21 - Nick Viall - General Discussion - *Sleuthing Spoilers* #3

I see nothing feminine about Nick. The last two ette season's that he was on, apparently they didn't either.

Interesting quiz @notarose. Thanks for posting!

notarose wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:IMO, the problem with Nick wanting the Andi type is them wanting him back. His very well developed feminine side can be a big deterrent for an Andi type. I don't mean that disrespectfully to Nick, rather to the ladies who feel they need that alpha or very masculine type male. Until they are older and have enough heartbreak, I am not sure they are ready to accept a male less dominant than they are. Again JMO.

The degree of Alpha and trait combination makes a difference
http://www.alphawomanthebook.com/quiz/

The above quiz statements give a sense of how a woman can have Alpha attributes with/without compassion or with/without being overly externally driven. Ideally IMO, Nick needs a confident assertive Alpha rather than an aggressive people pleasing Alpha.

 I find this v interesting. I agree also with @stuckinsc that Nick has a great feminine side if we are defining feminine traits as being caring and able to talk and analyse situations and feelings. I think we all hv both traditionally male & traditionally female traits in each of us. I admire men like Nick who are unapologetic about showing their feelings as I see that as the far braver approach than men who try and hold it all in  or pretend they don't care. If that tendency is traditionally viewed as feminine then that's a trait i wish all people would develope. I see the masculine as encompassing care and protection of loved ones so that fits Nick too, along with being competitive & assertive. I guess its just kinda novel to have a lead who is not the typically emotionally stunted male who has been the lead bachelor in many pas years.  
My view of Nick is always with my bias towards astrology so knowing he is a libran makes me see him as exemplifying the seeking of balance & harmony in all things. So I see him in situations as like the scales- able to see both sides and all the nuances of an issue. With that said I have formed the opinion that he wd be attracted to fiery or definate / fixed personalities who wd provide the anchor or unchanging nature to oppose/ complement his changeable nature. Someone strong and unchanging in their basic outlook wd be a secure prospect and give the balance to his intellectual flights.
When i think of the 'definate' personalities of andi & kaitlyn i see them as loud but with little substance behind it, due to lack of experience & self awareness imo. So a 'confident' woman based on real lived experience who can talk and debate issues all day long & also happens to be a stunning brunette who wants kids asap. That's the gal- right there. All jmho.

GuardianAngel wrote:I see nothing feminine about Nick. The last two ette season's that he was on, apparently they didn't either.

Interesting quiz @notarose. Thanks for posting!

By saying Nick has a strong feminine side, I believe it was meant that he is more in touch with his feelings (and other traits that are considered to be more feminine) than a lot of men are, and not that he is "effeminate" in his mannerisms.  Personally, I think it's a good thing and not an insult.

I think Jen was a "good enough" choice for Nick. I.e. she was attractive, intelligent, caring, funny, open, honest, etc. and would make a good wife. Hence the whole Nick speech regarding wanting to tell his heart to love her.

I don't see Nick as one to settle for "good enough" and I don't think he was ever going to be head over heels despite some attraction, so the breakup seemed right to me.

That said about his standards, he did almost propose to two Bachelorettes already. I think he may be overly impressed by fame (Bachelorette title = alpha woman, authority figure) and he may have let his fantasy of love get in the way and convince him that Andi or Kaitlyn was the one.

With Nick as lead, I am actually a bit afraid he will indeed wind up with no one. Or perhaps there is a good chance the cast will be full of strong women and he will go for the "villian."  I think he is less likely to listen to other cast trying to badmouth a woman he really likes, even if the woman deserves it. Hey, if all fails, we could have Nick on for a second season of the Bachelor!

I jest, but Nick is probably my favorite cast member ever. I liked how Andi and Kaitlyn acted when they were around him vs. how each acted with her F1. Had to throw that in.

And with regards to him being feminine...quote Andi saying "that is a MAN" or Kaitlyn saying Nick makes her "feel like a woman, a desired woman." I don't think emotions are necessarily even on a feminine side, but are simply put, human. I think Nick would agree but I would have to pore over his twitter to be able to quote him on that, so that's JMO.

I just think Nick is very in touch with his emotions, is sensitive and is very introspective. He seems to thrive off of a balance of strong cerebral and physcial relationships.

Whether you define those as "feminine" qualities is up for one person to decide/one persons opinions. I tend to shy away from classifying personal characteristics as gender specific as I believe in the words of Emma Watson's He for She speech "both men and women should feel free to be sensitive, both men and women should feel free to be strong".

This is not at all a knock on anyone or how they feel as I respect everyone's opinions, just my opinion.

For crying out loud, Nick fell in love twice before.  I'm not concerned he won't fall in love again, nor do I blame him for not falling in love with Jen.  She is really nice, sweet, gorgeous, etc., but she wasn't his type! Should he have put a ring on it because everyone expected him to??? 

Pandora wrote:I think Jen was a "good enough" choice for Nick. I.e. she was attractive, intelligent, caring, funny, open, honest, etc. and would make a good wife. Hence the whole Nick speech regarding wanting to tell his heart to love her.

I don't see Nick as one to settle for "good enough" and I don't think he was ever going to be head over heels despite some attraction, so the breakup seemed right to me.

That said about his standards, he did almost propose to two Bachelorettes already. I think he may be overly impressed by fame (Bachelorette title = alpha woman, authority figure) and he may have let his fantasy of love get in the way and convince him that Andi or Kaitlyn was the one.

With Nick as lead, I am actually a bit afraid he will indeed wind up with no one. Or perhaps there is a good chance the cast will be full of strong women and he will go for the "villian."  I think he is less likely to listen to other cast trying to badmouth a woman he really likes, even if the woman deserves it. Hey, if all fails, we could have Nick on for a second season of the Bachelor!

I jest, but Nick is probably my favorite cast member ever. I liked how Andi and Kaitlyn acted when they were around him vs. how each acted with her F1. Had to throw that in.

And with regards to him being feminine...quote Andi saying "that is a MAN" or Kaitlyn saying Nick makes her "feel like a woman, a desired woman." I don't think emotions are necessarily even on a feminine side, but are simply put, human. I think Nick would agree but I would have to pore over his twitter to be able to quote him on that, so that's JMO.

Really good post Pandora.  

I'm also concerned with the outcome of this Bach format for Nick. I don't see him as a 'natural' lead... so I will be very interested to see how he handles the spotlight.

I have the feeling the Nick brought out deep feeling in both A & K but was rejected by each b/c they were ultimately uncomfortable by the intensity of their feelings in combination with Nick's less rigid (masculine) nature. ("You release all these feelings in me, but aren't strong enough to catch me when I fall")

sbolduc wrote:I just think Nick is very in touch with his emotions, is sensitive and is very introspective. He seems to thrive off of a balance of strong cerebral and physcial relationships.

Whether you define those as "feminine" qualities is up for one person to decide/one persons opinions. I tend to shy away from classifying personal characteristics as gender specific as I believe in the words of Emma Watson's He for She speech "both men and women should feel free to be sensitive, both men and women should feel free to be strong".

This is not at all a knock on anyone or how they feel as I respect everyone's opinions, just my opinion.

Thanks. Those wouldn't be my choice of words, and therefore I obviously didn't understand the statement of describing Nick with feminine qualities. To me, a male is either sensitive or he isn't, it has nothing to do with female characteristics. You have confirmed what I was thinking, but explained it much better.

Thanks @ironcat for explaining.

Pandora wrote:***snipped***

That said about his standards, he did almost propose to two Bachelorettes already. I think he may be overly impressed by fame (Bachelorette title = alpha woman, authority figure) and he may have let his fantasy of love get in the way and convince him that Andi or Kaitlyn was the one.

With Nick as lead, I am actually a bit afraid he will indeed wind up with no one. Or perhaps there is a good chance the cast will be full of strong women and he will go for the "villian."  I think he is less likely to listen to other cast trying to badmouth a woman he really likes, even if the woman deserves it. .

@pandora
I find these 2 points to be interesting: Will he go after the alpha villain? And Would he be more or less likely than another lead to pick nobody?

Also, always wanted to ask you who is in your avi?

MiaHawk wrote:

Pandora wrote:***snipped***

That said about his standards, he did almost propose to two Bachelorettes already. I think he may be overly impressed by fame (Bachelorette title = alpha woman, authority figure) and he may have let his fantasy of love get in the way and convince him that Andi or Kaitlyn was the one.

With Nick as lead, I am actually a bit afraid he will indeed wind up with no one. Or perhaps there is a good chance the cast will be full of strong women and he will go for the "villian."  I think he is less likely to listen to other cast trying to badmouth a woman he really likes, even if the woman deserves it. .

@pandora
I find these 2 points to be interesting: Will he go after the alpha villain? And Would he be more or less likely than another lead to pick nobody?

Also, always wanted to ask you who is in your avi?

Villian = very much a matter of perspective and excellent question.
IMO, he was portrayed as a villian and here are some, but not all, of the reasons:
- appeared on Kaitlyn's season after it started
- had consensual sex before the FS
- in Andi's season, pouted over group dates
- didn't wait his turn at RCs - sometimes didn't wait his turn even though he already had a rose
- went to Andi's room and initiated an unscheduled date
- *he was not the one the majority of fans wanted to be F1 in either season

I listed the above because JMO I doubt he would consider any as villainous acts or traits and would therefore not consider women who acted likewise as a villian on his season. In other words, he could show great interest in someone a percentage of viewers :shocked!:  think is "the "villian".  Oh, and if she skinny dips, ...not a villian by Nick's standards.  Kaitlyn took off her bottom at the lake on a group date and that didn't deter him.

Would he chose no one? I think  Why choose a standin you know you are going to break up? I think all options are on the table: no one, someone but no engagement, engagement.

MiaHawk wrote:

ironcat wrote:**snipped***

I agree about Ashley I. possibly exaggerating in order to save face about Wells leaving.  While I do believe that producers tell the cast that they should be ready to make a commitment to the other person or leave, they can't "force" an engagement or a breakup.  If a couple were insistent that they wanted to keep dating after filming but weren't ready for an engagement, even a fake one, and didn't want to fake a breakup either, I'm sure the producers would have had no choice but to allow it.  Of course, it also might mean the end to all the BN perks and opportunities if you go against production, and we know how few are willing to go there.

I think it was season 1 of BIP, but I remember CH giving the ultimatum to the final couples prior to the FS dates.  He absolutely made it sound like the couples eiher needed to get engaged or break up forever never to see each other again.  I do not remember the exact words but I remember hearing them for the first time and thinking Who the heck are they to tell these people who they can or cannot date after this show ends?! Then in season 2 we had some couples date afterwards without engagement. I do not know if the ultimatum words changed.

Did he really say that? (I must have missed it  - drowned out in all of Ashley's crying). In any case, as you say, a little hard to enforce...

Have just had a thought about how the four hometowns might go. I am predicting that at least one or two families will not like Nick and have pre judgements based on watching the past seasons. I wonder if that happens how it might change who he chooses as his F2. Just a thought. All imo.