Bachelor 21 - Nick Viall - General Discussion - *Sleuthing Spoilers* #2

stuckinsc wrote:

kimberlyg wrote:See, I'm a fan, and I like Nick...  but he is complicated (like, I think people who see the azz and people who see the "good guy" are both right, if that makes any sense).  Which is probably what has made him interesting TV so far.

I just really really want them to give him enough 30-somethings (or at least late-twenty-somethings).  Both Andi and Kaitlyn were "age appropriate," (as was Julie Berry) and fairly "normal" in terms of looks as reality TV stars go so it's not like he just dates 22-year-old models or anything.  But I just worry if they give him a whole cast of like 23-25 year olds....  Although the fact that Luke was 31 makes me somewhat hopeful that they were going to skew older this season (although they didn't really with Chris Soules).

I actually have to defend TPTB here. We remember all farmer's annoying 20 somethings because that was what he wanted. The 33 year old farmer had at least five gorgeous women in their 30s, most we gone by week two. He did keep Whitney and Kaitlyn who were both 29. But farmer enjoyed having the young hotties fawning all over him and was completely insincere in his desire to really find a wife for the farm.

Nick will have age appropriate women, the onus is on 36 year old Nick with who he chooses. I predict a twenty something to keep his LA fame seeking lifestyle. But I have been wrong before and will be again. We will see in November who was right and who was wrong. The bonus for me, if Nick shocks me, falls hard, goes back to a non fame seeking life, then good for me, maybe the man who initially appealed to me is still there.

All JMO.

I don't know, Nick seemed genuinely interested in, and falling hard for "age appropriate" "career" woman Andi, and "age appropriate" Kaitlyn (on paper, her emotional maturity definitely skews lower than her number, IMO of course).

I'm not sure if you are watching, but on BIP in a cast mostly made up of Ben's younger women, he is decidedly NOT really into anyone, other than being a big brother figure. Jen comes the closest, but even there you can tell he's just not that into her.

I think (hope) Nick will pick someone that mentally stimulates him. Whether that person is 25 or 35, I don't really care. Age is mostly just a number. As a reminder, Molly Mesnick was only 24 years old when she met Jason, but emotionally she was READY for the real deal, had her head screwed on straight and dealt with major heat to make that work. At 24. From everything we've seen from Nick, I do think he will pick someone with an emotional age much higher than the young/mid twenty-something this show loves to cast.

I'm curious to see what the viewers who didn't watch BIP will think about them picking Nick. He wasn't exactly popular last time around IMO. I know in my office that not one of the Bach watchers liked him in either Bachelorette season. I'll be interested to see what they say about it.

I don't really get the feeling that Nick's searching for his true love. Certainly going on tv multiple times seems a low percentage way of going about it if he is. I get the feeling that becoming lead just fits the lifestyle he's aiming for in L.A. All JMO.

My opinion is it's a case of 2 parties washing each other's back.
A need is being fulfilled for TPTB by getting what they think will be a good lead for the 2017 season and a need is being fulfilled for Nick by giving him what ever it is he wants.
If what he wants ends up being a significant other, I guess that's a bonus for each party.

sosleepy wrote:I felt bad for Nick when Andi dumped him, when he accidentally spoiled the ending on the plane and RS was mercilous, and I especially felt bad for him for how cold and mean Andi was towards him at ATFR when she painted him into a corner and he was accused of sl*t shaming her.

I felt bad for Nick when Kaitlyn, knowing how it ended for him only 12 months prior, dragged him to the end only to repeat history. How humiliating. Seriously humiliating. He handled it though. I felt further bad for him for how cold as ice Kaitlyn acted towards him again at ATFR.

I will most certainly feel badly for him if his final 1 dumps him at the alter. That is most definitely a story line I do not want to see for Nick. I like the underdog story. I do not like the "dump on the guy who's had a bad go of it" story. I absolutely do not care that it's his 4th time on this show. You know what? He's entertained me every time. It's a tv show. I've enjoyed his storylines in Bachelor Universe. He gets along with pretty much everyone. He's been a good sport. He's done no one harm, really. I'd prefer a redemption arch for him.

 
Well said.    Great summary of what actually happened. Look at it this way- Nick has twice found love , that's a success rate! Any average person has been dumped a few times and they get a chance to try again. You just need one great love to make a life with. Can't believe people would wish him to go through more pain, so mean spirited. I think he's actually too nice a person, somehow people took him for granted in the past, i saw it as people taking advantage of his romantic nature. My main hope is that he is able to open to finding love again . Real people real love. All imo.

sosleepy wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

kimberlyg wrote:See, I'm a fan, and I like Nick...  but he is complicated (like, I think people who see the azz and people who see the "good guy" are both right, if that makes any sense).  Which is probably what has made him interesting TV so far.

I just really really want them to give him enough 30-somethings (or at least late-twenty-somethings).  Both Andi and Kaitlyn were "age appropriate," (as was Julie Berry) and fairly "normal" in terms of looks as reality TV stars go so it's not like he just dates 22-year-old models or anything.  But I just worry if they give him a whole cast of like 23-25 year olds....  Although the fact that Luke was 31 makes me somewhat hopeful that they were going to skew older this season (although they didn't really with Chris Soules).

I actually have to defend TPTB here. We remember all farmer's annoying 20 somethings because that was what he wanted. The 33 year old farmer had at least five gorgeous women in their 30s, most we gone by week two. He did keep Whitney and Kaitlyn who were both 29. But farmer enjoyed having the young hotties fawning all over him and was completely insincere in his desire to really find a wife for the farm.

Nick will have age appropriate women, the onus is on 36 year old Nick with who he chooses. I predict a twenty something to keep his LA fame seeking lifestyle. But I have been wrong before and will be again. We will see in November who was right and who was wrong. The bonus for me, if Nick shocks me, falls hard, goes back to a non fame seeking life, then good for me, maybe the man who initially appealed to me is still there.

All JMO.

I don't know, Nick seemed genuinely interested in, and falling hard for "age appropriate" "career" woman Andi, and "age appropriate" Kaitlyn (on paper, her emotional maturity definitely skews lower than her number, IMO of course).

I'm not sure if you are watching, but on BIP in a cast mostly made up of Ben's younger women, he is decidedly NOT really into anyone, other than being a big brother figure. Jen comes the closest, but even there you can tell he's just not that into her.

I think (hope) Nick will pick someone that mentally stimulates him. Whether that person is 25 or 35, I don't really care. Age is mostly just a number. As a reminder, Molly Mesnick was only 24 years old when she met Jason, but emotionally she was READY for the real deal, had her head screwed on straight and dealt with major heat to make that work. At 24. From everything we've seen from Nick, I do think he will pick someone with an emotional age much higher than the young/mid twenty-something this show loves to cast.

That's exactly what I was thinking too!
IMO, I hope he chooses a mature woman, not necessarily an older woman in her 30s. Kaitlyn is in early 30s but I would not call her mature. Age doesn't define maturity or characters.
I also don't see anything wrong with him moving to LA. Sure, I prefer him to stay in Chicago with Salesforce. However, he had worked a normal 9-5 job for almost 10 years, when the opportunity presented itself, why not try something new when you are still young? I think he's that kind of person who doesn't want to think What If later on in life.

Nick has always said that Saleforce is a great place to work and that they support what he does. He is always welcome to come back to his old job. If Nick does find the one and wants stability and a family I am sure he will go back or find another job. He is single with no responsibility at this time so why not enjoy the moments he is having. You only live once so I say take advantage of your dreams. Nick was not looking to become a model they found him. I highly doubt that many single men would turn that down. JMO

The issue with moving to LA is the lifestyle. Most people in LA actually have jobs. If Nick had moved there for a career change it would be entirely different. Nick moved to LA so he could be a full time Bachelor Nation pseudo celebrity and attend freebee events some with paid appearances for more face time. Nick loves the fame. There is an entire subset of people who move to LA to try to become someone other than who they were in the ordinary life they left behind. That is the group I see Nick in. Transformation. LA is very image obsessed, trendy, who you know and who you are. I am sure in his heart Nick would like to find his ideal woman. But in reality he has not been in any significant dating realtionship that has not been televised in a few years. IMO this because Nick prefers Fame chasing to actually living in RL with real expectations and goals. I actually see Nick as lost and seeking. Living the life he has in LA is not edifying in the long run. The only type of woman who will go for that is someone who has similar Fame aspirations as Nick. Nick has had opportunities for excellent women like JB but fame chasing was/is more important IMO. Nick needs a TV love for future branding and shilling opportunities and I am interested to see if he actually will find her on his Bachelor run. That is the type of entertainment career Nick aspires too. But with a relationship will come compromise and a settling down. No more LA and Vegas partying with CS et al. IMO the jury is out.......
JMO

There are a lot of great discussions going on here. People making a lot of good points. A few of my thoughts:

I, personally, watch these contestants for their behaviors while on the TV show. I know that I am seeing a mere snippet of who they are and highly edited version, and that is part of the challenge for me. I try to figure out what *I* think of them, because of and in spite of their TV edit. Even though I know that I my thoughts and feelings may be very skewed by the edit, I feel "justified" in over-analyzing them while they are on TV.

I view this show as a hybrid of fact and fiction, red herrings and critical omissions, combined to create a storyline of TPTB's liking. I find this show to be a frustrating puzzle to solve most of the time, because the editing is manipulative. But, for that one period of time, for those 3 months of filmed footage narrowed down to 12 hours of aired tv episodes, I enjoy watching their behavior and trying to figure out who these people are, if I like them as people, if the lead likes them, are they falling in love, etc.

Once the show is over, I get to see some of what was hidden from us and some of what was sold to us. Within a few weeks of the ATFR, I typically find closure for the TV storyline, wish all well, and move on from them. I may look at pics or read some articles about these people, but I am just as leery of all of those things as I was of all of the things I watched on the show...or at least I should be.

Magazine articles are designed to sell and a quote here and there does not the full story make. It just happens to be what a person was feeling at one moment in time on one particular day in their life. A SM pic or photo is the same thing. A mere moment in time. My point is, I don't feel like I get a full picture of who these people are while on the show, and I don't think media and SM (my interactions with them) gives me a full picture of who they are either. I may be able to pick up on little tendencies or likes of them, but none of it gives me enough insight to know what is in their hearts and minds. I no longer feel "justified" to analyze or judge their behaviors. I, therefore, release myself from any attachment to their lives and how they live it. This is my personal Modus Operandi.

The complicated thing about Nick is that he has ricocheted between TV Nick and real life Nick multiple times. We all have observed him on several occasions and analyzed his behaviors in several different situations. We believe that we somehow know him so much better because we watched 36 hours of him on TV instead of a mere 12 hours on TV. That's a whole 24 more highly edited episodes ---less than 24 hours more "insight" into who Nick really is. I just throw this out there for food for thought.

I think "change" in a person's life is constant. I think we are all always changing, day by day, mostly in incremental subtle ways, but we are changing. The overt expressions of change (like moving to a new city or taking a new job) are easy to spot, but not always so easy to understand. There are so many internal reasons for making an overt change in one's life that can only be fully known by the individual making the change. For every reason we think we know for Nick's change, there are at least a dozen reasons that we know nothing about. I, personally, don't feel qualified to sit in judgment of what changes he has or hasn't made in his life. Just like I don't think any casual observer of my life would be qualified to sit in judgment of me based on my SM footprint or by the posts I write here.

I think that Nick has qualities that make him an interesting person to watch on TV. I will watch TB pretty much the same way I always do. I will wish him well on his journey to find love, expect the worst and hope for the best. I would never wish for him or any of the contestants to be damaged by the edit, and I would never wish heart-break or a dumped-by-the-F1 ending on him. I'm not a fan of the heartbreak aspect of this show. While some of it is inevitable based on the concept of the show (multiple people competing for the love of one person), I always feel that the participants have a great ability to help ease the hurt. I was very impressed by the way Jojo conducted herself while on her season and on ATFR. If a person shows maturity and empathy towards the rejected suitors that goes a long way in my book. My opinion is that Nick has the experience, maturity, and empathy within him to be able to ease this pain in others.

It is my hope that we get to see Nick find a special lady that will fit in his life (whatever that entails) and that the rejected suitors can move on with proper closure and dignity. Probably more than any other aspect of the season of TB or B'ette, I find this juncture (the FRC rejection and ATFR) to be the most telling about the person's character. it is the lasting impression that stays with me the longest. More so than the magazine photo shoots and articles, the SM pictures or Snapchat videos. To me, THOSE are the real moments to watch.

MiaHawk wrote:There are a lot of great discussions going on here. People making a lot of good points.  A few of my thoughts:

I, personally, watch these contestants for their behaviors while on the TV show.  I know that I am seeing a mere snippet of who they are and highly edited version, and that is part of the challenge for me. I try to figure out what *I* think of them, because of and in spite of their TV edit.  Even though I know that I my thoughts and feelings may be very skewed by the edit, I feel "justified" in over-analyzing them while they are on TV.

I view this show as a hybrid of fact and fiction, red herrings and critical omissions, combined to create a storyline of TPTB's liking. I find this show to be a frustrating puzzle to solve most of the time, because the editing is manipulative. But, for that one period of time, for those 3 months of filmed footage narrowed down to 12 hours of aired tv episodes, I enjoy watching their behavior and trying to figure out who these people are, if I like them as people, if the lead likes them, are they falling in love, etc.  

Once the show is over, I get to see some of what was hidden from us and some of what was sold to us. Within a few weeks of the ATFR, I typically find closure for the TV storyline, wish all well, and move on from them.  I may look at pics or read some articles about these people, but I am just as leery of all of those things as I was of all of the things I watched on the show...or at least I should be.

Magazine articles are designed to sell and a quote here and there does not the full story make. It just happens to be what a person was feeling at one moment in time on one particular day in their life. A SM pic or photo is the same thing. A mere moment in time. My point is, I don't feel like I get a full picture of who these people are while on the show, and I don't think media and SM (my interactions with them) gives me a full picture of who they are either.  I may be able to pick up on little tendencies or likes of them, but none of it gives me enough insight to know what is in their hearts and minds.  I no longer feel "justified" to analyze or judge their behaviors. I, therefore, release myself from any attachment to their lives and how they live it.  This is my personal Modus Operandi.

The complicated thing about Nick is that he has ricocheted between TV Nick and real life Nick multiple times.  We all have observed him on several occasions and analyzed his behaviors in several different situations.  We believe that we somehow know him so much better because we watched 36 hours of him on TV instead of a mere 12 hours on TV. That's a whole 24 more highly edited episodes ---less than 24 hours more "insight" into who Nick really is.  I just throw this out there for food for thought.

I think "change" in a person's life is constant.  I think we are all always changing, day by day, mostly in incremental subtle ways, but we are changing.  The overt expressions of change (like moving to a new city or taking a new job) are easy to spot, but not always so easy to understand. There are so many internal reasons for making an overt change in one's life that can only be fully known by the individual making the change. For every reason we think we know for Nick's change, there are at least a dozen reasons that we know nothing about.  I, personally, don't feel qualified to sit in judgment of what changes he has or hasn't made in his life.  Just like I don't think any casual observer of my life would be qualified to sit in judgment of me based on my SM footprint or by the posts I write here.  

I think that Nick has qualities that make him an interesting person to watch on TV.  I will watch TB pretty much the same way I always do.  I will wish him well on his journey to find love, expect the worst and hope for the best. I would never wish for him or any of the contestants to be damaged by the edit, and I would never wish heart-break or a dumped-by-the-F1 ending on him.  I'm not a fan of the heartbreak aspect of this show. While some of it is inevitable based on the concept of the show (multiple people competing for the love of one person), I always feel that the participants have a great ability to help ease the hurt. I was very impressed by the way Jojo conducted herself while on her season and on ATFR. If a person shows maturity and empathy towards the rejected suitors that goes a long way in my book. My opinion is that Nick has the experience, maturity, and empathy within him to be able to ease this pain in others.

It is my hope that we get to see Nick find a special lady that will fit in his life (whatever that entails) and that the rejected suitors can move on with proper closure and dignity. Probably more than any other aspect of the season of TB or B'ette, I find this juncture (the FRC rejection and ATFR) to be the most telling about the person's character. it is the lasting impression that stays with me the longest. More so than the magazine photo shoots and articles, the SM pictures or Snapchat videos.  To me, THOSE are the real moments to watch.



         

Very well written 

^^ Very nice, Mia. Empathy is key. Given what he's been through on the show, I can't imagine Nick being anything other than a gentlemen with his contestants.

He said after Andi that he was waiting for love to find him.... and yet he keeps putting himself out there to try and find it. The courage, determination and vulnerability he repeatedly shows is what makes him so appealing to me. I truly believe Nick is looking for love and hope he finds it.

Mia, have I told you how much I love reading your posts? Great one! Yes, I totally agree with "wish him find love, expect the worst and hope for the best" mentality while watch this show.
As for schilling goes, I just quickly looked through his IG and couldn't find the infamous FabFitFun pic. Did he delete it? He actually only promoted two products from what I know and one of them donates to the needy so it really isn't too bad. I know in the past he also tagged a leather jacket and jeans a lot. Is that schilling?

SueSt wrote:^^ Very nice, Mia. Empathy is key. Given what he's been through on the show, I can't imagine Nick being anything other than a gentlemen with his contestants.

He said after Andi that he was waiting for love to find him.... and yet he keeps putting himself out there to try and find it. The courage, determination and vulnerability he repeatedly shows is what makes him so appealing to me. I  truly believe Nick is looking for love and hope he finds it.

I agree with what is being said. On BIP, he mentioned something about not wanting to be the mockery that gets rejected again for the third time. I feel relatively sympathetic for him in that we all know what its like to go through heartbreak. Especially when you think you have finally found "the one". I'm hopeful they find some spunky intellectual girls that can make a hot and interesting season for Nick and the viewers.