Bachelor 21 - Nick Viall - General Discussion - *Sleuthing Spoilers* #2

lleyki wrote: snipped

And that's another reason I've always been amused at the judgments on Nick about the pre-FS sex with Kaitlyn - "omg so rude and disrespectful and gross to the other guys". But funny enough, what I remember playing out on my television was Kaitlyn in complete control of that situation. Girlfriend practically climbed Nick like a tree and dry humped him in public before inviting him back to her hotel room. But he was the one who got judged for their actions.

And like Andi, our Kaitlyn swore Shawn was it for her from the first night but neither had any issues riding Nick and in Kaitlyn's case, more than once. But both times, somehow HE became the villain and they both treated him like some trash under their shoe at the ATFR. And that is why I'm with others on being amused by this so called BIP redemption of Nick. Redemption for what?

'climbed him like a tree' so damn true        So agree with all you wrote. There is this misconception.
IMO Kaitlyn also knew her feelings for Nick and strung him along right up until the final moment, what a selfish immature & cruel way to treat anyone. For me there is nothing he has to be sorry for except for asking that question in public.  But I do not for a second see it as malicious.  From where I was looking it seemed that Andi got less heat than he did about his ATFR question. Andi also had a clever way of always defending herself by attacking others, and she immediately took the position of 'he's sl*t shaming me' when actually he wasn't ever calling her a sl*t or implying that. He just wanted to know why she had taken things so far and he hadn't had the chance to ask her before that moment as she had refused to meet him.
Tv cameras or not imo any man or woman who was treated like that had every right to ask why.   I always saw it as really what he was asking 'why did you sleep with me when you didn't feel the same as me and when I was sure we were getting engaged' although he said it in a simpler way.  I would support anyone who feels they were misled to get some closure, ideally off camera. I read somewhere that on average the lead sleeps with 3 people per season!!!   Maybe that was from Courteney Robinson's book, can't recall.
All IMO

The "redemption" IMO solely has to do with the overall viewer perception of Nick (and the narrative the producers were crafting for him behind the scenes to encourage that perception). During and certainly by the end of Andi's season, he was the villain. When he came back on Caitlyn's season, he was the villain again, although perhaps he received a little sympathy after his second rejection. This is not to say that he didn't have his fans throughout, but the majority of the audience (egged on by the editing, calling him "Tricky Nicky, etc) was against him, not rooting for him. BIP is the first time that both the majority of viewers AND the producers seem to be on his side. Thus redemption.

And while part of it is because the editing turned in his favor, I also think that because of the setting of BIP, where Nick wasn't strictly competing with other guys for the attention of one woman, he "played better with others" and was truly more well liked than previously among the rest of the cast. IMO the guy is very competitive, and a lot of that came out on The Bachelorette, which didn't serve him well in terms of popularity. He didn't show that same competitive side in BIP, and quickly became both a cast and fan favorite.

stuckinsc wrote:

ironcat wrote:

reason wrote:


Nick never asked for the lead and his sister say they were surprise about it all, so I am guessing they are going to pay him abit more. They asked him not him asking them.

I have to disagree.  Nick has been desperate to be the lead for the past year, he would have jumped at the chance to replace Ben had the producers asked him.  He was ready to go on DWTS.  Moreover, he was no longer earning big bucks in his software career and the producers had two willing and relatively acceptable backups, so I don't see that Nick had any negotiating power at all on this one.

As far as Nick and sex, what I remember from his comments post Andi is that he felt that sex was something very special when you're in love and it's important that both people should be on the same page about what the sex means before they engage.  If there's an imbalance, ie one party is in love and the other isn't, there shouldn't be sex.  A fine standard as far as I'm concerned, and I'll be interested to see how/if Nick holds to it when he takes his F3 women to the FS.  If all three women have already professed their love to him (seems to be the rule of thumb these days) by that point, will he still have sex with the (presumably) two whose feelings he doesn't reciprocate?  Good luck with this one, Nick.

Great post @ironcat. Nick has been pursuing the bachelor since he moved to LA. It is IMO why he did BiP against his previous statements that he would not. While not completely different, this version of Nick does not have all the same values as the man who we met on Andi's season. He has contradicted his own previous statements too much for him to still be the same. His choice, so good for him, I am just personally over it, but then again I grew up in a large family too and view his maybe not having much from that set of experiences. I predict he ends up with someone equally committed to living the lifestyle he is currently living. I don't see Nick as wanting that old life back. That is okay and his choice, just like it is my choice to not like him anymore. Nick has shown us what and who he is now, what he wants in a woman will fit who he is now IMO.

I also predict that now that he is lead he will defend having fiance/love type sex as being necessary to his making the right choice. He has contradicted himself on so many other things he said after Andi's season why not that too. Key to me will be if he admits that maybe he should have cut Andi more slack for her actions.

He and Kaitlyn were two consenting adults, it was just shown unlike previous contestants. IMO, it was part of choosing Nick to be the lead, they want tv-MA this season, not the ABC family/lukewarm sexuality of Farmer and "Perfect" Ben. Again JMO.

Wow, stuck. I never thought we would agree in regards to Nick, but these are my thoughts exactly.

I didn't like Nick on Andi's season, but I could appreciate that he seemed like a normal guy with a normal life and I could actually buy that he was genuinely hurt. Now, he's contradicted himself so many times. My friend sent me a quote via text about Nick from some article that was written about Nick and the show when he was announced as the bachelor. It pretty much mentioned how the show has always been a bit of a joke and not really about love, but now with a 36 year old lead with no job, who moved out to LA, who will now be on the show four times, it has turned into a full blown mockery and that's exactly what production wants.

I know for me, as a 25 year old woman, there is zero attraction for a man who is not far off from 40 years old that seemingly seems lost on what to do with his life and has seemed to fill voids by going on four reality television shows. It's a joke, which is why I will gladly watch him contradict himself over and over. It will be hilarious to watch. JMO

lleyki wrote:snipped..

And like Andi, our Kaitlyn swore Shawn was it for her from the first night but neither had any issues riding Nick and in Kaitlyn's case, more than once. But both times, somehow HE became the villain and they both treated him like some trash under their shoe at the ATFR. And that is why I'm with others on being amused by this so called BIP redemption of Nick. Redemption for what?

Snipped but totally agree with the whole post. Very well said. IMO No one knew that this was going to be a BIP redemption until viewers, those that didn't like him to begin with, started to post SM comments which included I never liked him, but now I do, etc. It snowballed from there IMO. The purpose of Nick going on BIP according to the storyboard, was to have a Nick/Josh showdown IMHO. They got the showdown, but at the same time a new Bachelor that was not in the original mix but due to popularity it worked.

I ask you this. Would Luke have given us so much to speculate and analyze and wonder about? Or Chase? Yeah... Not. AWESOME choice, TPTB. Kudos. Can't wait for January!

There is nothing better for TPTB than plenty of talk regarding the show and their cast if it all translates to future ratings.

^ I don't know. While I think Luke and Chase are boring, I thought the same about Ben and I ended up thinking he had a great season and he got very solid ratings.Same with Sean, but we all have differing opinions.

Regardless, the contestants really make each season, especially on the bachelor. I see why they picked Nick. The previous bachelor season was very normal and focused a lot on the relationships surprisingly. I get why Mills compared it to picking Juan Pablo after Sean's season. They want a train wreck. It will be interesting to watch. JMO

I still think that when producers were recruiting Nick to go on BIP (in order to have the Josh/Nick showdown which was to be a primary story line), they threw out to him, as a carrot, the possibility of giving him a good edit (while Josh got a bad edit) in order to rehabilitate his image, with the hint that it could lead to giving him the Bachelor role if it worked. Whether they were seriously considering this scenario at the time, or just leading him on for their own purposes, who knows? But the actuality is that the scenario they proposed totally happened, and once TPTB saw fan reaction, which was pretty immediate, after one or two episodes, they probably started taking the idea seriously themselves, especially since I don't believe there was overwhelming support among fans for a Luke season.

I'll actually give Nick credit for being smart enough to have not gone on BIP without first trying to elicit some assurances from producers that he wouldn't be villainized again. He would have been looking to get something out of the appearance besides the small stipend, free drinks, and three weeks in the bug infested heat. At least I hope he would.

Duke702 wrote:I think Nick would like someone like Julianne Hough. He set seems to go for really hot girls who are bubbly and outgoing.

Maybe, in his dreams. I could never see someone like Julianne Hough liking someone like Nick.

I just have a feeling that TPTB might be disappointed if they're expecting some sleazy sex-filled season. The Nick I've gotten to "know" over the past two years is a feminist, which is ironic considering people hated him for "sl*t-shaming" Andi. I just see a man who views men and women as equals and treats them as such. He has many platonic female friends and he acts like an older brother to young immature women. He's simply proven capable of treating women as more than just sex objects or possible romantic partners and that's one of the things I most like about him. That's why I don't see him acting like a kid in a candy store when presented with 25 attractive women. I'm sure he'll be attracted to several of them and could very well have FS sex with more than one, but I think there needs to be something there besides just physical attraction. Now how many smart, confident, sexy women with some depth do you think the show is willing to cast? Not many if previous seasons are anything to go by. If all the under 25-year-olds fall in the little sister category, the crazies and desperados do nothing for him and the ones that are too normal don't excite him, then it'll be slim pickings. He's also capable of having conversations so I don't see him sucking face just because he has nothing to say. It'll be interesting to see how he really behaves as the lead, but I don't think I can look at his actions with Andi (who he was really falling for) and Kaitlyn (who he'd been sexting with for weeks/monts) and assume he'll be like that with every woman. He certainly showed little interest in anyone on BIP, in a romantic sense.

All I know is I'm a LONG TIME fan of this idiot franchise. Until last year, I never liked The Bachelor they picked. I was always underwhelmed, indifferent, or at worst totally repelled (Jake, Flapjack). Two seasons in a row they selected my #1 choice! Ben and Nick. I don't know how I got so lucky!

If it's a train wreck, well, I enjoyed JPG's season for all the wrong reasons, so bring it. I also think there is potential for Nick to have an amazing season. He knows the ropes, in theory will serve as a great Bachelor ambassador and host to all the newbie girls, helping them feel comfortable on camera. Maybe he will prove people wrong and actually pick the right girl for him.  They haven't even started filming yet, so I'm not ready to write this one off just yet, seeing as I'm no fortune teller. Even if it's a train wreck, I hope it's an entertaining trainwreck, and I'm fully confident he who hath been dumped twice back-to-back on national tv will rebound just fine.

mindless wrote:I've watched the show since the first season as well and I can't think of a Bachelor I've liked better than Nick. The previous leads, for me, have ranged from borderline repulsive to inoffensive yet boring, so he's a step in the right direction.

Me too on the first season thing.  Funny thing though, for me, Nick meets both the bolded descriptions almost more than anyone JMO.  So different strokes.

I truly find his casting a total joke, like someone said above.  Mid thirties, left a career and real life to work on his body and post shirtless selfies for a few years while being a near-permanent resident on Reality TV.

And as boring and bland as some leads might be shown on their seasons, a 4th season of the same guy is about as boring as it gets IMO.

As to Nick generating a lot of talk, I've read and posted more about him than I ever would have cared to but not because I find him very compelling or interesting.  With him basically "starring" on 3 going on 4 seasons, it's pretty hard to avoid talking about him IMO.  Having someone shoved down your throat makes it hard to ignore them if you don't want to give up on the show for a season IMO and since I've made it through Jake, Ben F and Andi, I know I'll make it through Nick too.  I'm hoping for a great group of women .