THE BACHELORETTE - SEASON 12 - JOJO FLETCHER - **NO SPOILERS** - Episode Discussion - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION

Going in to last nights episode, I had fully resigned myself to the fact that Jordan ends up F1, that there was some kind of trickery with the FR preview with Robby being thrown under the bus by the brothers and the brothers giving Jordan a thumbs up making him a viable F1.  But none of this makes sense to me.  Last nights episode was full of important information and I am once again doubting this ending.

This whole season has been about JoJo's struggle with recognizing true love vs falling back into her same pattern of making the wrong choice.  I think she had a light bulb moment when Wells discussed his relationship with his ex, staying in the relationship too long after "it" just wasnt there anymore.  She recognized that in her past relationships she had stayed too long trying to make it work even when "it" wasnt there.  This might also be foreshadowing her relationship with Jordan taking him to F2 trying to make it work and trying to get what she wanted and needed from him when it just wasnt there.  Up to this point I had just assumed that they were hiding the Jordan emotional relationship to spread doubt about him, but it became clear last night that they had no emotional relationship or a shallow one, at best.  Her, Look at you, talking about feelings, comment showed that.

They did a good job of laying out each relationship and setting up the F4 last night.  Throughout the season JoJo has spent a great deal of time telling Jordan and others what she wants in a husband and a marriage.  She even felt that she needed to remind Jordan what she wanted at the end of this.  Yet, with Luke, he tells her what he sees for their future together, and it almost parallels exactly with what she has told the others that she wants.  Robby and Jordan are narrating the season, but Luke is narrating their story.  She says that she wants the passion to still be there years from now, and Luke tells her that it would be perfect to come back there 20 years from now to where it all started.  You dont usually say such things unless you are in love.  The question is if JJ  recognizes these things he says as affirmations of love since she apparently hasnt had a relationship in the past  where she got affirmation in everyday actions and words and feels that she needs the ILYs to recognize true love.

She made the foreshadowing comment, what if I let someone go that I was meant to be with.  I think she locks in on Jordan from the start and falls into the same pattern of trying to make a relationship work with someone that is clearly not on the same page that she is.  And I think that is the obstacle for she and Luke, and its a big one, since she lets him go at F4 or F3,  will she follow the pattern of her past going for the bad boy and stick with Jordan trying to force it to work or can she finally recognize and accept true love.  Somehow, someway, I see Luke as F1. After seeing all of the relationships laid out last night, I dont see any coming close to the depth that she has with Luke.

Its amazing to me how everyone sees things differently and I enjoy reading everyones perspective.

Huge Kudos to Chase for looking inward and acknowledging that he had no idea that she thought of him that way and searching for what he needed to do to correct it.  In contrast, Jordan, just questioned how could someone speak of my character in that way, rather than ask, what is it I do that would make you think that.

For now, at least, Im saddling up the Luke unicorn and riding toward a fairytale ending. Jordan may well pull some more rabbits out of his hat, but I think he will run out of magic by the end.

#wearingunicornglasses

moon

moonchild wrote:Going in to last nights episode, I had fully resigned myself to the fact that Jordan ends up F1, that there was some kind of trickery with the FR preview with Robby being thrown under the bus by the brothers and the brothers giving Jordan a thumbs up making him a viable F1.  But none of this makes sense to me.  Last nights episode was full of important information and I am once again doubting this ending.

This whole season has been about JoJo's struggle with recognizing true love vs falling back into her same pattern of making the wrong choice.  I think she had a light bulb moment when Wells discussed his relationship with his ex, staying in the relationship too long after "it" just wasnt there anymore.  She recognized that in her past relationships she had stayed too long trying to make it work even when "it" wasnt there.  This might also be foreshadowing her relationship with Jordan taking him to F2 trying to make it work and trying to get what she wanted and needed from him when it just wasnt there.  Up to this point I had just assumed that they were hiding the Jordan emotional relationship to spread doubt about him, but it became clear last night that they had no emotional relationship or a shallow one, at best.  Her, Look at you, talking about feelings, comment showed that.

They did a good job of laying out each relationship and setting up the F4 last night.  Throughout the season JoJo has spent a great deal of time telling Jordan and others what she wants in a husband and a marriage.  She even felt that she needed to remind Jordan what she wanted at the end of this.  Yet, with Luke, he tells her what he sees for their future together, and it almost parallels exactly with what she has told the others that she wants.  Robby and Jordan are narrating the season, but Luke is narrating their story.  She says that she wants the passion to still be there years from now, and Luke tells her that it would be perfect to come back there 20 years from now to where it all started.  You dont usually say such things unless you are in love.  The question is if JJ  recognizes these things he says as affirmations of love since she apparently hasnt had a relationship in the past  where she got affirmation in everyday actions and words and feels that she needs the ILYs to recognize true love.

She made the foreshadowing comment, what if I let someone go that I was meant to be with.  I think she locks in on Jordan from the start and falls into the same pattern of trying to make a relationship work with someone that is clearly not on the same page that she is.  And I think that is the obstacle for she and Luke, and its a big one, since she lets him go at F4 or F3,  will she follow the pattern of her past going for the bad boy and stick with Jordan trying to force it to work or can she finally recognize and accept true love.  Somehow, someway, I see Luke as F1.  After seeing all of the relationships laid out last night, I dont see any coming close to the depth that she has with Luke.

Its amazing to me how everyone sees things differently and I enjoy reading everyones perspective.

Huge Kudos to Chase for looking inward and acknowledging that he had no idea that she thought of him that way and searching for what he needed to do to correct it.  In contrast, Jordan, just questioned how could someone speak of my character in that way, rather than ask, what is it I do that would make you think that.

For now, at least, Im saddling up the Luke unicorn and riding toward a fairytale ending. Jordan may well pull some more rabbits out of his hat, but I think he will run out of magic by the end.

#wearingunicornglasses

I love your perspective and agree with it all. I have always thought that this season mirrors Desiree's season with Jordan being Brooks - the guy they have always fallen for and continually seek affirmations of love from versus Luke like Chris- the dependable guys who are right there with all they truly need for a happy relationship.
Brooks helped Des by leaving but my fear is that Jojo will succumb to old habits and go with Jordan.

If you follow JoJo on IG, which I do, she had an interesting post this afternoon. I'm not sure if this is allowed to be discussed since it involves SM. It may or may not be a clue/hint toward her F1.

So, GA or Kasha, is discussing an IG post acceptable for this section of the board? It's fine if you'd rather we just stick to the show and it's previews. It could open a door that can't be closed again if discussed. It's a slippery slope, for sure.

locoforbach wrote:Quick question for anyone, they showed previews but guessing we are not getting an episode on the July 4th holiday?  Announcer said "next week on the Bachelorette" but my DVR is not showing anything for Monday, which leaves us waiting 2 weeks again . . . .

There was some confusion. CH tweeted there was a new epi, but later tweeted this.

Chris Harrison ‏@chrisbharrison 4h4 hours ago
Good news I was just informed we won't air an original #TheBachelorette episode on the 4th. So go enjoy your holiday!!!

Watching live, my thoughts as it airs:

-Even JoJo is worried when someone is already saying ILY (to CH)...the last two guys to tell her that, it didn't work out. (Foreshadowing?)

-Aww, now I'm "Wells"-ing up with tears. 3x Wells said to JoJo "I hope you find what you're looking for." But will she?

-"This is one of my greatest fears...I feel like, I, at the end of all of this, every good-bye that I've had to make, every tough decision.. has led me to the point where I am in so in love with somebody....what if that doesn't work out?...It hasn't worked out any other time." -JoJo   (Foreshadowing for post-show or does she break her pattern?)

-GD greeting JoJo, Alex came running up out of the line-up to and give JoJo a big hug. "I'm glad someone is making an effort." -JoJo

-There goes over-confident Robby again. 

-Yikes, feeling like an intruder during this Lujo kiss. Wondering if this hot flame is going to burn out?

-Chase "the joy together is there."  

-What makes Derek so confident? I bet he is used to the ladies fawning over him. This Chase & Derek exchange is intense. Wow, Chase really likes JoJo A LOT. He is so sensitive right now reading that date card and Derek's confidence. 

-JoJo is rather defensive of Jordan with JT. Her demeanor totally changed. Soft--->Hard. Ok Soft again...but rattled when she returned to CP. What JT brought up is rather weak. He did kind of throw him under the scooter (can't say bus because it was petty). I would have bigger things to worry about with Jordan than his supposed sense of entitlement. Jordan should've pulled JT aside instead of calling him out in front of his posse. He looked like everything JT described to JoJo, sitting there all smug, swirling his wine around for what seemed like an eternity. 

-Chase "I've definitely kept my cards close to my chest. I could definitely see love happening between the two of us." 
-JoJo doesn't seem nervous enough for a 2:1. I'm thinking she knew who she was going to keep around beforehand. 
Chase "I'm prepared and committed to this whole adventure, so that's what JoJo needs to see today." Geez, this guy is a gem. 
A ton of cam pan reactions to Chase when dancing with Derek. None for Derek, just over-confident commentary. 

-Cringing at "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina" 
-Feeling like an voyuer when Chase is nuzzling her neck. Get me outta here!

-Chase "JoJo's really making it apparent she is here to find her husband. She isn't wasting any time." (Foreshadowing? Does Chase let her know the extent of his feelings before it's too late? This might be an obstacle for him and might be the reason he loses out to Jordan or Robby maybe? Or does he step up to the plate?)

-Jordan letting his guard down. This is GOOD. I'm feeling more hopeful for her (if he is her F1). Thought she would be more emotional about what he told her? 

-JoJo "Giving James and Alex both a rose tonight. I'm so relieved. I can go to bed tonight knowing I didn't make (camera pan to Chase) a mistake." This edit is equal parts interesting and baffling. 

-Awfully big of Jordan to rub JT's back after he received a rose. Good for him. 

Season preview- JoJo seen kissing each guy...except Chase. He does say "something feels fabricated." Pretty sure this is about Robby. What is stopping Jordan and JoJo from riding off into the sunset together? I am most curious to see where they go from here. Where does that leave her and Chase?

Still think Jordan is her F1 right now. But the edit is still pointing in Chase's direction. Maybe because he's the decoy for Jordan's F1 scent? Maybe because he was it all along and those master full TPTB are spinning a wild tale? Maybe there is some type of foiler? A Mesnick? Ok, I'll stop now.   

Great points AC. Is it just me or does Jordan not give JoJo exactly what she wants to hear AFTER they have had a confrontation about something or the other? To me it's only after she questions him does he begin to let out his feelings. And if that's the case, it's highly suspect to me.

agentcurls wrote:Watching live, my thoughts as it airs:

-Even JoJo is worried when someone is already saying ILY (to CH)...the last two guys to tell her that, it didn't work out. (Foreshadowing?)

-Aww, now I'm "Wells"-ing up with tears. 3x Wells said to JoJo "I hope you find what you're looking for." But will she?

-"This is one of my greatest fears...I feel like, I, at the end of all of this, every good-bye that I've had to make, every tough decision.. has led me to the point where I am in so in love with somebody....what if that doesn't work out?...It hasn't worked out any other time." -JoJo   (Foreshadowing for post-show or does she break her pattern?)

-GD greeting JoJo, Alex came running up out of the line-up to and give JoJo a big hug. "I'm glad someone is making an effort." -JoJo

-There goes over-confident Robby again. 

-Yikes, feeling like an intruder during this Lujo kiss. Wondering if this hot flame is going to burn out?

-Chase "the joy together is there."  

-What makes Derek so confident? I bet he is used to the ladies fawning over him. This Chase & Derek exchange is intense. Wow, Chase really likes JoJo A LOT. He is so sensitive right now reading that date card and Derek's confidence. 

-JoJo is rather defensive of Jordan with JT. Her demeanor totally changed. Soft--->Hard. Ok Soft again...but rattled when she returned to CP. What JT brought up is rather weak. He did kind of throw him under the scooter (can't say bus because it was petty). I would have bigger things to worry about with Jordan than his supposed sense of entitlement. Jordan should've pulled JT aside instead of calling him out in front of his posse. He looked like everything JT described to JoJo, sitting there all smug, swirling his wine around for what seemed like an eternity. 

-Chase "I've definitely kept my cards close to my chest. I could definitely see love happening between the two of us." 
-JoJo doesn't seem nervous enough for a 2:1. I'm thinking she knew who she was going to keep around beforehand. 
Chase "I'm prepared and committed to this whole adventure, so that's what JoJo needs to see today." Geez, this guy is a gem. 
A ton of cam pan reactions to Chase when dancing with Derek. None for Derek, just over-confident commentary. 

-Cringing at "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina" 
-Feeling like an voyuer when Chase is nuzzling her neck. Get me outta here!

-Chase "JoJo's really making it apparent she is here to find her husband. She isn't wasting any time." (Foreshadowing? Does Chase let her know the extent of his feelings before it's too late? This might be an obstacle for him and might be the reason he loses out to Jordan or Robby maybe? Or does he step up to the plate?)

-Jordan letting his guard down. This is GOOD. I'm feeling more hopeful for her (if he is her F1). Thought she would be more emotional about what he told her? 

-JoJo "Giving James and Alex both a rose tonight. I'm so relieved. I can go to bed tonight knowing I didn't make (camera pan to Chase) a mistake." This edit is equal parts interesting and baffling. 

-Awfully big of Jordan to rub JT's back after he received a rose. Good for him. 

Season preview- JoJo seen kissing each guy...except Chase. He does say "something feels fabricated." Pretty sure this is about Robby. What is stopping Jordan and JoJo from riding off into the sunset together? I am most curious to see where they go from here. Where does that leave her and Chase?

Still think Jordan is her F1 right now. But the edit is still pointing in Chase's direction. Maybe because he's the decoy for Jordan's F1 scent? Maybe because he was it all along and those master full TPTB are spinning a wild tale? Maybe there is some type of foiler? A Mesnick? Ok, I'll stop now.   

The JT scooter throw seemed so producer induced. I think he was to say something along the lines of what he said in his PI about Jordan being a fame ho, but when it came time he stumbled around and couldnt do it, so he succumbed to his insecurities and came out with the lame poker story. Jordan did redeem himself somewhat with the shoulder rub.

Just a couple of very brief thoughts:

- If Derek hadn't been on the 2-on-1, he probably still would be around and Alex would've been sent packing. I really wish that happened.

- I was surprised how insecure JoJo came across in this episode; though not in a bad way. I think she's genuinely worried that whatever guy she picks isn't going to fall in love with her back. I felt really bad for her in all that.

- Luke still comes across to me as F1. The only thing that could possibly change that is if he leaves, and then it becomes a Deanna situation.

- I'm #TeamJordan, but I actually thought he handled the stuff was JoJo really poorly, and it's the first time this season where I've been bothered by it. He was way too overly defensive, and could have just easily said: "we were playing a card game and got into a stupid argument, and I acted like an *******." Instead he had to be like, "we were playing a game and I was right." I also think that Jordan freaking out over entitled was dumb; mostly because it was the wrong word -- I think James was trying to call him "arrogant," which is probably how he came off in their argument. As in "I'm Jordan Rodgers, so of course I'm right about the rules to the card game." But it's not the fight itself that I didn't like -- it was Jordan's reaction to JoJo bringing it up. Like, dude, just own up to the fact that you acted immature over something stupid (as did James for bringing it up in the first place, but I'm guessing that's producer driven).

Watching Jojo with Wells, and later Derek, I was struck by how transparent she is. When she's not into a certain guy, it shows.

Having said that, I was really confused by her choice of men for the 2-on-1. Chase, fine, but why Derek? To me, it seems logical that you choose someone you are pretty sure that you want, and someone you are pretty sure that you don't want. So Chase/Alex or even Chase/JT might have made more sense. It made me wonder what went wrong with Derek, who seems on the surface to have all the virtues.

But I don't think this date was about Derek so much as it was about Chase. IMO Jojo wanted to use the uncertainty of a 2-on-1 to push Chase to more of a commitment in terms of revealing his emotions. She wanted to put him in the hot seat. And in that, she was successful. She may have selected Derek as an entirely plausible competitor for Chase. Chase probably wouldn't have taken Alex or JT nearly as seriously as Derek. Jojo had to make Chase sweat. And she did. Which tells me that she is likely *very* serious about him.

Luke is gorgeous and hot. I'd be shocked if he doesn't make it to the Fantasy Suite.

Jordan -- there is a residual attraction there, but with this episode I got the feeling that his star is fading.

Robbie -- I still don't get him.

JT and Alex -- I was rather intrigued by the fact that Jojo couldn't make the call. It shouldn't have been that tricky. I think that she really likes both, but that they've both been essentially friend zoned. I think the real reason that she wants both around is that they are the "truth tellers" of this season. If Jojo wants to know the dirt of what's going on between the men, she knows they will tell her. IMO she does wants to know. That's why, even though I didn't care for JT's revelation about Jordan, I don't think it hurt him in Jojo's eyes. He's not an F4, but he still holds value for her.

As for the next Bachelor -- IMO Chase and Derek are most like the type they tend to go for.

see2love wrote:

moonchild wrote:Going in to last nights episode, I had fully resigned myself to the fact that Jordan ends up F1, that there was some kind of trickery with the FR preview with Robby being thrown under the bus by the brothers and the brothers giving Jordan a thumbs up making him a viable F1.  But none of this makes sense to me.  Last nights episode was full of important information and I am once again doubting this ending.

This whole season has been about JoJo's struggle with recognizing true love vs falling back into her same pattern of making the wrong choice.  I think she had a light bulb moment when Wells discussed his relationship with his ex, staying in the relationship too long after "it" just wasnt there anymore.  She recognized that in her past relationships she had stayed too long trying to make it work even when "it" wasnt there.  This might also be foreshadowing her relationship with Jordan taking him to F2 trying to make it work and trying to get what she wanted and needed from him when it just wasnt there.  Up to this point I had just assumed that they were hiding the Jordan emotional relationship to spread doubt about him, but it became clear last night that they had no emotional relationship or a shallow one, at best.  Her, Look at you, talking about feelings, comment showed that.

They did a good job of laying out each relationship and setting up the F4 last night.  Throughout the season JoJo has spent a great deal of time telling Jordan and others what she wants in a husband and a marriage.  She even felt that she needed to remind Jordan what she wanted at the end of this.  Yet, with Luke, he tells her what he sees for their future together, and it almost parallels exactly with what she has told the others that she wants.  Robby and Jordan are narrating the season, but Luke is narrating their story.  She says that she wants the passion to still be there years from now, and Luke tells her that it would be perfect to come back there 20 years from now to where it all started.  You dont usually say such things unless you are in love.  The question is if JJ  recognizes these things he says as affirmations of love since she apparently hasnt had a relationship in the past  where she got affirmation in everyday actions and words and feels that she needs the ILYs to recognize true love.

She made the foreshadowing comment, what if I let someone go that I was meant to be with.  I think she locks in on Jordan from the start and falls into the same pattern of trying to make a relationship work with someone that is clearly not on the same page that she is.  And I think that is the obstacle for she and Luke, and its a big one, since she lets him go at F4 or F3,  will she follow the pattern of her past going for the bad boy and stick with Jordan trying to force it to work or can she finally recognize and accept true love.  Somehow, someway, I see Luke as F1.  After seeing all of the relationships laid out last night, I dont see any coming close to the depth that she has with Luke.

Its amazing to me how everyone sees things differently and I enjoy reading everyones perspective.

Huge Kudos to Chase for looking inward and acknowledging that he had no idea that she thought of him that way and searching for what he needed to do to correct it.  In contrast, Jordan, just questioned how could someone speak of my character in that way, rather than ask, what is it I do that would make you think that.

For now, at least, Im saddling up the Luke unicorn and riding toward a fairytale ending. Jordan may well pull some more rabbits out of his hat, but I think he will run out of magic by the end.

#wearingunicornglasses

I love your perspective and agree with it all. I have always thought that this season mirrors Desiree's season with Jordan being Brooks - the guy they have always fallen for and continually seek affirmations of love from versus Luke like Chris- the dependable guys who are right there with all they truly need for a happy relationship.
Brooks helped Des by leaving but my fear is that Jojo will succumb to old habits and go with Jordan.  

The only thing that gives me hope is the preview of the FRC.

@Allaboutlove - I'm here!