Bachelor New Zealand - Jordan Mauger - Season 2 - Episode Discussion - *Sleuthing* - *Spoilers*- #2

cocoHoney wrote:clock ticking haha ... made my day

Totally agree with you on Naz.

I was thinking about the whole hit list and competitiveness thingy. I think we really have to keep in mind that prod and edits have a great role on what we may think about someone. Also they spent weeks in this adventure and they only select a few lines here and there for the show. About the hit list what we may not know is that maybe during the ITMs they were always questioning her about that hit list she may have mentioned just once at the beginning. I think many girls who enter the show were more interested in the adventure itself than in the potential relationship to get out of it. Shari, Nicole, Claudia ... even Gab to me it seems they did not care that much about the guy ... and Naz saw it so she probably thought they had nothing to do here and told that during ITM.
Then maybe they constantly asked her about her hit list mission during the following ITMs. Also I'm pretty sure Claudia would also create even more drama and enhance Naz's strong temper who then decided to talk to Jordan about those girls.

I don't totally defend her ... I still think this was not a smart move to make to mention those girls to him. But like the other girls said ... he always spends a lot of time with Naz, they probably talked about many other things but that we don't hear about ...

At least to me she is not two faced ... she can play sometimes like she did hiding the rose in the last RC but honestly ... is it such a bad thing to blame her for ?? I don't think so ... talking trash in the back like pretty much all the others do is ...
Also, she did confront Ceri ... maybe not the softest way ... but at least she did it in front of her ... that show honesty I think. Then if poor Ceri ended up crying, well ... not Naz's fault if she is super sensitive

It's been skipped over all season the reason that Naz did confront Ceri... Ceri was carrying tales to the other girls about something she heard or thought she heard Claudia say and Naz was taking up for her friend. That shows loyalty to me and I respect that in a person.

This goes back to the reason I changed my mind about Ceri. Carrying tales is so high school. If it don't concern you, leave it alone, if nobody's life is at risk. Which in this case it clearly wasn't. Then there was the part about her whinging about Jordon asking her how many children she wanted to have. Ummmm Ceri, that's a normal question for a man to ask a woman he could be interested in. He wasn't asking you to have HIS baby in the next 8 months or so. It was just a natural question that once again showed Ceri's immaturity. It clearly showed me the reason she has had to go on Tinder looking for a date and I take back my statement that in a years time I would enjoy seeing her as the Ette NZ. Maybe 10 years from now she may have a handle on life and I'm not saying she is a bad person at all. I'm only saying she comes across more like a 16 year old girl than the 24 year old lady she should be by now.

Again, I will say I enjoy the Naz we've seen since Claudia was sent home. Has she made mistakes? Sure, she has. She's human after all. As far as hiding the rose, I didn't see anything wrong with that.( it also could have been producer driven) If people stopped sweating the small things in this world, we might grow closer to getting world peace. Until that happens, there's not a chance it will ever happen. JMHO...

It is so saddening to read this stream of intense dislike for a beautiful. intelligent young woman who has suffered horrendous abuse in fact almost killed. On a 2nd date it is NOT a normal question for a 32 year old man to ask a 24 year old woman. I do not understand it. Though I do not always like what Naz does or says I in no way have any feelings of dislike for her. Ceri will make a fantastic ett I wish her and all the contestants a brilliant future. She is the official spoke person for Woman's Refugee and amazing organisation in NZ they do uplifting work for abused women. A woman with the attitude of an 16 year old could not do this work she gave a speech at a W omens Refuge event I have heard that it was incredible. Ceri has also been doing so well on the pageant circuit. Lets celebrates her courage for over coming overwhelming obstacles to a make a difference for other women, Whilst on Bach NZ she suffered from shingles a extremely painful debilitating  illness. How wonderful to have the fortitude to carry on.

There should never be any excuse to bully another especially when listening to tales from others then bullying Ceri because of that this could be considered to be impulsive and immature. I am Naz sure has gained some insight into her behavior throughout the series.

In my very humble opinion

LoveDovez wrote:

cocoHoney wrote:clock ticking haha ... made my day

Totally agree with you on Naz.

I was thinking about the whole hit list and competitiveness thingy. I think we really have to keep in mind that prod and edits have a great role on what we may think about someone. Also they spent weeks in this adventure and they only select a few lines here and there for the show. About the hit list what we may not know is that maybe during the ITMs they were always questioning her about that hit list she may have mentioned just once at the beginning. I think many girls who enter the show were more interested in the adventure itself than in the potential relationship to get out of it. Shari, Nicole, Claudia ... even Gab to me it seems they did not care that much about the guy ... and Naz saw it so she probably thought they had nothing to do here and told that during ITM.
Then maybe they constantly asked her about her hit list mission during the following ITMs. Also I'm pretty sure Claudia would also create even more drama and enhance Naz's strong temper who then decided to talk to Jordan about those girls.

I don't totally defend her ... I still think this was not a smart move to make to mention those girls to him. But like the other girls said ... he always spends a lot of time with Naz, they probably talked about many other things but that we don't hear about ...

At least to me she is not two faced ... she can play sometimes like she did hiding the rose in the last RC but honestly ... is it such a bad thing to blame her for ?? I don't think so ... talking trash in the back like pretty much all the others do is ...
Also, she did confront Ceri ... maybe not the softest way ... but at least she did it in front of her ... that show honesty I think. Then if poor Ceri ended up crying, well ... not Naz's fault if she is super sensitive

It's been skipped over all season the reason that Naz did confront Ceri... Ceri was carrying tales to the other girls about something she heard or thought she heard Claudia say and Naz was taking up for her friend. That shows loyalty to me and I respect that in a person.

This goes back to the reason I changed my mind about Ceri. Carrying tales is so high school. If it don't concern you, leave it alone, if nobody's life is at risk. Which in this case it clearly wasn't. Then there was the part about her whinging about Jordon asking her how many children she wanted to have. Ummmm Ceri, that's a normal question for a man to ask a woman he could be interested in. He wasn't asking you to have HIS baby in the next 8 months or so. It was just a natural question that once again showed Ceri's immaturity. It clearly showed me the reason she has had to go on Tinder looking for a date and I take back my statement that in a years time I would enjoy seeing her as the Ette NZ. Maybe 10 years from now she may have a handle on life and I'm not saying she is a bad person at all. I'm only saying she comes across more like a 16 year old girl than the 24 year old lady she should be by now.

Again, I will say I enjoy the Naz we've seen since Claudia was sent home. Has she made mistakes? Sure, she has. She's human after all. As far as hiding the rose, I didn't see anything wrong with that.( it also could have been producer driven) If people stopped sweating the small things in this world, we might grow closer to getting world peace. Until that happens, there's not a chance it will ever happen. JMHO...

Karina wrote:It is so saddening to read this stream of intense dislike for a beautiful. intelligent young woman who has suffered horrendous abuse in fact almost killed. On a 2nd date it is NOT a normal question for a 32 year old man to ask a 24 year old woman. I do not understand it. Though I do not always like what Naz does or says I in no way have any feelings of dislike for her. Ceri will make a fantastic ett I wish her and all the contestants a brilliant future. She is the official spoke person for Woman's Refugee and amazing organisation in NZ they do uplifting work for abused women. A woman with the attitude of an 16 year old could not do this work she gave a speech at a W omens Refuge event I have heard that it was incredible. Ceri has also been doing so well on the pageant circuit. Lets celebrates her courage for over coming overwhelming obstacles to a make a difference for other women, Whilst on Bach NZ she suffered from shingles a extremely painful debilitating  illness. How wonderful to have the fortitude to carry on.

There should never be any excuse to bully another especially when listening to tales from others then bullying Ceri because of that this could be considered to be impulsive and immature. I am Naz sure has gained some insight into her behavior throughout the series.  

In my very humble opinion

I have not watched the show so I can't comment on anything but the highlighted since I am getting my info from what I am reading here, however, the highlighted in perfectly understandable and actually, quite typical. This is not normal dating. This is a reality dating show. A dating show on steroids where everything is speeded up. We have been told by many former cast members that the hard questions that typically are not discussed early in a normal dating situation, are on the show simply because they don't have the luxury of time. They need to narrrow down the contestants to those most suitable and these are the topics that can really do that. Usually the audience doesn't get to see these discussions because producers feel they are boring or sometimes involve touchy subjects like religion, but they happen. Her age has nothing to do with it. He is the lead and if that is something that is important to him, he needs to know. If that is not something that she sees herself doing, then clearly they are not compatible. Better to know as quickly as possible.

Ceri has discussed this and has said that it was lovely spending time in the car and they had a friendly conversation then when they entered the made up garage and she said having the cameras on them compared to the time alone in the car was uncomfortable, ( I will find the link later)she has said she felt uncomfortable with the question that does not make her immature. So yes the dates are speeded up however the reality is she did not feel comfortable that her is  right and it is not our place to 2nd guess her her feelings. Maybe he could have asked her in the car. I disagree I would think it most inappropriate for a 32 year man to ask a young women such a question given the time and place it just seemed out of sync in a tacky garage, there was gentle lead up to the question, no preamble it was also the awkward way he worded the question. Maybe some lovely relaxed location and ambience it may have different. IMO

So I am going to discuss Fleur and I know that this is not going to be a popular discussion but this is a forum and I believe that we are all entitled to express our opinion.

Fleur started for me to become a front-runner at the beach group date. Jordan liked talking about her overseas experience, her work, her anecdotes. He took her away, and gave her a rose but the discussion was short. still he wanted more.

Then, she had her single date which went well. They continued their conversation and experiences. The date went well. It ended not only with earrings but also a kiss. Not a passionate kiss, but a kiss nonetheless.

(at this point I would like to remember that Shari got a 5000$ diams necklace, that fleur got a 1000$ and that is because of the jewelry sponsoring. I will hold my joker card that jordan decided the girls and dates).

After this date, I saw a lot of fleur at the coktail parties with doubts and at one point she said: I will stop worrying about the other girl and believe in what we have (not the exact words but the meaning is here). This is typically a self defense reaction here. Not saying it is right or wrong, I do not know how I would react myself in this particular situation. This is someone who just want to remain in her bubble and make sure she put layers upon layers around her to protect her. But this is HER perception only here. Yes they had a great volcano date but nothing more or less great than Gab or Erin IMO. It is not because someone repeat ad nauseam something is true, that the thing is true; and in this case mutually shared on the same level of understanding of the same events. For it could have been love at first sight for her and for jordan just a lovely evening in the company of a nice girl. (could be also more but I want to explain my point here)

She had her 1on1 time at the zoo group date. I think everyone could see how odd the kiss was with jordan. How awkward they left with a kiss on cheek.  She did not even made any effort regarding the kangaroo painting. It was distaste and I thought not the right thing to do on national TV: 1/ it was rejecting jordan's gift 2/ not respectful for the artist.  A gift is a gift and everyone should accept it graciously. The conversation looked like it was really nice and the only topic I remember are the kids. For me, it is as if the edits made a point to make a comparison with Ceri on the same topic. Lets remember that I am sure all parties spoke about other subjects but producers decided to keep the kids on both girls. It looked to me like spinoff said more like an interview rather than a fluid and nice conversation. The way Jordan was seated was not taking her hand or anything. It was not cosy. It was not a body language of a guy who cannot wait to be cuddly with the girl he likes. (on twitter, TBNZ share a meme saying that they were cosy though, so who knows)

Lets remember something important here. Jordan say he is a very cuddly person and that he loves Naz being warm and holding his hand naturally. His best mates also said in interview that he is the charming one, that he will probably kiss more than art green. This is a guy that Crystal said that he is a lovely guy (they had a short relationship 6 years ago). Then, where is this Jordan? I sure do not see him with any of the girls except Naz...

But back to Fleur.

And this is where for me things went different ways. All of this is is OF COURSE speculations from my part and the way I interpret what I see with Fleur.

Fleur stayed on her cloud 9, believing that she had something incredibly special and unique and all the other girls were just there for the ride. She was so close with Storm that I am even wondering how it did play some part for Storm to have cold feet when she heard on a daily basis Fleur, so obviously enamored with jordan. Storm who is a very smart girl probably understood that she was not that special after all.

Fleur explained in an interview that until she moved in NZ 10 years ago she battled panic attacks and she was extremely lonely (I wonder if she had anorexia because she just shared a pic when she was a teen and she looks skinny). So much so that she felt that moving to NZ would be a new life for her, that she could finally make friends, that she would not be bullied anymore. For me this is a very lonely youth life she had. She also said that she is now a happy person and everything is okay since 6 years. She met friends, she went to Kenya, she is doing a job she loves. A person who craved friends and understanding, needs attention and care. The perception of care and love is quite blur IMO.

If you check her facebook page, Fleur is all over the place. You can read her comments on everyone's other girls facebook. She even posted a video of a husband (taken by his wife) screaming YES when she got the rose at last ceremony. The video was funny though. But there is a line to laugh and to share it with the world.

I invite you to check her facebook (and for me what she is posting is nothing worse or better than any of the other girl are posting dot dot dot) Fleur - Facebook

Fleur - Facebook wrote:Something you may not know about me...
...is that I "rocked" rainbow colored dreadlocks back in 2003 and 2004!
‪#‎itwasaphase‬ ‪#‎proudtobeme‬ ‪#‎standoutfromthecrowd‬

Fleur - Facebook wrote:Doing my Dutch heritage proud in last nights orange dress
smile emoticon

Tonight is gonna get wet 'n wild! Hope you're all watching!

Fleur - Facebook wrote:This made my day! Can't believe how much love and support I'm getting from people all over the country! You guys rock!

So this is Fleur. Fleur who were a true mess when Metz left. Fleur who cried river upon river on an ITM about Metz departure. Who was seen also crying and held by amanda during the coktail party.... how long did she met Metz? few days, one week at most??? A tiny bit excessive no? (yeah yeah we saw also Naz crying river at Claudia's departure but Claudia stayed longer no?).

So IMO, Fleur is not at all on the same level as Jordan. Jordan, meanwhile, had another 2nd date with Storm, another 2nd date with Naz, had dates with Gab and few others.

But Fleur stayed on her Cloud 9.

So at the last rose ceremony, when jordan and naz were away a long time, Fleur showed her true colors (we can see they started at sunset and went back pitch black and also with kate's snark comment about they were away a while). It is said that each time it takes around 30 to 1 hour. If they mentioned it and were unhappy, it probably took much longer than that.

Fleur showed us a very different side of her. She was very catty and cocky with Jordan. She refused to ask for a chat. Jordan was totally taken aback by her attitude. Everyone was uncomfortable. I think it is the first time he saw Fleur under this new light and it was not a pleasant light since it was clearly a green jealous light. (remember this is still my opinion and how I saw it played)

Then, Fleur was totally pissed off at the rose line. She was rude with Naz. Said F** off and another time used again 4 F*** roses.

My question is prods/edits could have decided to cut this part. We never see the waiting part of the rose ceremony. They did not. They chose to show us the drama and of course the rose behind the light was with the full agreement of the production and discussed with Naz... and Jordan, even if he had no part in it since when he arrived, Naz had her rose in her hand.

Finally, when she was standing with Storm, she took her hand. She was almost fainting here and there. (at this point it was obvious to me that Storm knew she left and was at peace with it). When Fleur took her hand, while the previous girl was called, we can see clearly Storm whispering something in Fleur's ear. I am sure she told her not to worry. it was quick but for sure Storm knew she was leaving.

Then, Jordan called Fleur's name. You can see the s/caps I made and see clearly that she is making a huge deal of it. In front of Jordan, she is also over reacting, putting her hand on her heart, rolling her eyes, holding him close. For me it was over reacting again.

So I am thinking if she was a true mess about Metz departure when she knew the girl only for a few days, I fear to imagine how quickly she got attached to Jordan, with such little experience of men and life. It does not bode well to me that she is so emotional and sensitive.

With every other girl, jordan was smiling (see the s/caps on the other thread). But when Fleur came to him, he was clearly on the fence. He was not smiling and he looked at her with an expression that I am still trying to understand. But one thing is sure, he was NOT a happy camper a that moment.

I honestly think that he wanted to know more about Storm and was taken aback that Storm decided to leave. I also think that Jordan did not appreciate the bratty fleur's shenanigans. Jordan is a bloke bloke and he does not like games or jealous games. Especially because EVERYONE here are aware that it is multiple dates and that is that. All the girls have to just play THIS game which is to accept they are not alone and just focus on the bachelor. That is what everyone signed up to.

So this is my analysis. It is worth what is worth. And maybe Fleur is F1 after all. No idea. But this is what I saw and see with the edits they give me. Maybe Jordan is totally upset about her attitude and I think he was. If you check during the episode, Jordan made 2 ITM and he is more suntanned and he is wearing a light blue shirt... but speaks in present tense. We all know producers ask them to talk about previous episodes and even do some ITM way after the finale. So why did Jordan pretended it JUST happened? Unless he spoke about another event and edits decided to include this on this rose ceremony?

It will be interesting to see next episode since it was pinpoint that fleur was unhappy to see jordan with another girl and their connection (naz in the arms of jordan, him kissing her head and comforting her)

I have NO doubt that anti-naz will tell that she fake her fear of sea. Funny that nobody even doubted that Fleur has birds phobia and faked it. it will be interesting to read how Naz is such an actor. :P

and this is ALL in my opinion of course.

Karina wrote:Ceri has discussed this and has said that it was lovely spending time in the car and they had a friendly conversation then when they entered the made up garage and she said having the cameras on them compared to the time alone in the car was uncomfortable, ( I will find the link later)she has said she felt uncomfortable with the question that does not make her immature. So yes the dates are speeded up however the reality is she did not feel comfortable that her is  right and it is not our place to 2nd guess her her feelings. Maybe he could have asked her in the car. I disagree I would think it most inappropriate for a 32 year man to ask a young women such a question given the time and place it just seemed out of sync in a tacky garage, there was gentle lead up to the question, no preamble it was also the awkward way he worded the question. Maybe some lovely relaxed location and ambience it may have different. IMO

Sorry, but I disagree. In the context of the show is is prefectly appropriate. What show did she think she was going on? The cameras are there to film her...no matter what. There are going to be uncomfortable/weird situations. That is reality tv. If that is going to bother anyone, then they shouldn't do the show. She is certainly entitled to her feelings, but these are the things she should have thought of before going on the show. Reality tv is not for the faint of heart. People are put in uncomfortable situations. They are prodded by producers and then they are edited. The editing could also be responsible for the disjointed manner of how the question came about. We only get a few very edited minutes of whatever was filmed.

Sprite wrote:

Karina wrote:Ceri has discussed this and has said that it was lovely spending time in the car and they had a friendly conversation then when they entered the made up garage and she said having the cameras on them compared to the time alone in the car was uncomfortable, ( I will find the link later)she has said she felt uncomfortable with the question that does not make her immature. So yes the dates are speeded up however the reality is she did not feel comfortable that her is  right and it is not our place to 2nd guess her her feelings. Maybe he could have asked her in the car. I disagree I would think it most inappropriate for a 32 year man to ask a young women such a question given the time and place it just seemed out of sync in a tacky garage, there was gentle lead up to the question, no preamble it was also the awkward way he worded the question. Maybe some lovely relaxed location and ambience it may have different. IMO

Sorry, but I disagree. In the context of the show is is prefectly appropriate. What show did she think she was going on? The cameras are there to film her...no matter what. There are going to be uncomfortable/weird situations. That is reality tv. If that is going to bother anyone, then they shouldn't do the show. She is certainly entitled to her feelings, but these are the things she should have thought of before going on the show. Reality tv is not for the faint of heart. People are put in uncomfortable situations. They are prodded by producers and then they are edited. The editing could also be responsible for the disjointed manner of how the question came about. We only get a few very edited minutes of whatever was filmed.

We agree to disagree that is why it is wonderful to this discussion as each person has a different perspective. I guess each contestant is also different and has a different world view. I just saw something different to you. That is all good. Iam want to move on now I am very interested in HEAs post about Fleur

@HEA very interesting insights re Fleur. I will need to do some thinking now and will post some thoughts later. I must say the screen caps tell their own story.

Sprite wrote:

Karina wrote:Ceri has discussed this and has said that it was lovely spending time in the car and they had a friendly conversation then when they entered the made up garage and she said having the cameras on them compared to the time alone in the car was uncomfortable, ( I will find the link later)she has said she felt uncomfortable with the question that does not make her immature. So yes the dates are speeded up however the reality is she did not feel comfortable that her is  right and it is not our place to 2nd guess her her feelings. Maybe he could have asked her in the car. I disagree I would think it most inappropriate for a 32 year man to ask a young women such a question given the time and place it just seemed out of sync in a tacky garage, there was gentle lead up to the question, no preamble it was also the awkward way he worded the question. Maybe some lovely relaxed location and ambience it may have different. IMO

Sorry, but I disagree. In the context of the show is is prefectly appropriate. What show did she think she was going on? The cameras are there to film her...no matter what. There are going to be uncomfortable/weird situations. That is reality tv. If that is going to bother anyone, then they shouldn't do the show. She is certainly entitled to her feelings, but these are the things she should have thought of before going on the show. Reality tv is not for the faint of heart. People are put in uncomfortable situations. They are prodded by producers and then they are edited. The editing could also be responsible for the disjointed manner of how the question came about. We only get a few very edited minutes of whatever was filmed.

IMO ceri made a big deal out of peanuts and out of pride of being rejected. Blaming Jordan for an innocent question in the grand scheme is a way to try to ridicule him and show to public that she is so much better without him around.

Because she had some tragedy in her life does not make her perfect angel IMO. It is fantastic that she went out of it and I am truly happy for her. But at the end of the day, it does not make her perfect. In here, I thought she showed a huge amount of immaturity.

And as said by @LoveDovez, Ceri decided to spread some rumor all around the mansion without verifying the truth and this is on that that Naz was unhappy... Claudia who by the way is the true villain in this mansion and used Naz all the time. She did not speak and explained like every other person would do, she felt bullied, left and cried. That shows for me that she is far from being stable and her scars will need way more time to heal. I do not like the Ceri I see and hear outside the show. I did not like the Ceri in the show either. This said, I thought both her dates sucked. So good for her that she went out this terrible traumatized situation, but at the end of the day, I still do not like her personality she gives me in and out the show.

side note: Naz did exactly the same. Claudia told this story that anna said that she would have taken the necklace over the rose and naz took on herself to do not verify the info and go to jordan. this is also very much nono IMO

Karina wrote:@HEA very interesting insights re Fleur. I will need to do some thinking now and will post some thoughts later. I must say the screen caps tell their own story.

@HEA I do agree with some of the things you mentioned about Fleur. From reading blogs on her website (link below) I am not sure Jordan is a good fit for her. But I am thinking she is F1 based on the postings & comments she is displaying on her FB...it just seems to me that she wants people to know she is F1....all JMO.

http://fleurverhoeven.com