The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - ATFR - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* #3

Jojo knew the strong connection of Ben and Lauren and at some point, if she's smart that most people think she is, her sixth sense would have told her that Ben will pick Lauren and if she played her story well, she could be ette.

Because of how manufactured her HTD was and her family in reality shows and in celebrity circles, I wouldn't put it past her that she was playing up the "blindside" story as her audition for the ette role. Even her "surprised" reaction at the ATFR as if it was her first time to hear it is an indication to me that she can act. jMO

I think the most misleading thing Ben said to JoJo was "We're on the same page". ILY I can maybe understand, since I do believe he loved her in some way, but how the heck were they ever on the same page, when Ben's reads "I can never say goodbye to Lauren"? I wish he'd been called out for that, but obviously it wouldn't have served anyone well at ATFR, since she's moving on as the Bachelorette. Still think he deserved to be called out.

Lucas15 wrote:

2observe wrote:My issue with Ben is him not telling Lauren about him telling Jojo he loved her before he asked her to marry him.  To me, it seems that he was more truthful to Jojo by telling her that he also loved Lauren.  I just think that it would have been more honest if Ben had given Lauren a chance to consider how she felt about his feelings for Jojo before she accepted his ring. jmo

It's not like he hid the possibility from Lauren - she suspected (and worried) that he might love JoJo too - we all saw that in Lauren's ITMs. It's not like he hid that possibility from JoJo either - she asked - and he was honest and answered. IMO had Lauren asked also he would have been equally honest - but the difference is that Lauren trusted what she and Ben had and was willing to gamble the potential for heartbreak on that trust - and JoJo didn't.

By waiting Ben gained several things. He had proposed and committed to Lauren and he did so with no pressure or urging from Lauren - and she knew that. If she was not able to understand what had happened then she would not have been the woman for Ben; among many other things, love is about forgiveness.

I disagree that it was okay for Ben not to have a discussion with Lauren about the extent of his feelings for Jojo before he proposed.  And, the notion that he "feared" losing Lauren if he had that conversation seems manipulative and dishonest to me.  I bet you that Lauren was more upset/angry about not being told the truth before she accepted his proposal.  Don't get me wrong, I do think that Ben and Lauren will make a fine couple.  However, my initial post was in response to a poster commenting on how honest Ben was with Lauren right after the proposal.

^^ At the F3 RC JoJo pretty much knew that it was Lauren. When they toasted and Lauren commented that she and Ben had a great week that was it. JoJo turned away because it hit her that Lauren was now all in and this after J's date with Ben. I think that was why she questioned so much the on the LCD.

Sprite wrote:While I agree that the producers had a lot to work with this year, I think most of it was a result of Ben and Lauren. I saw lots of emotions from them, not so much from JoJo. Yes, she liked Ben, was attracted to him, but I question just how much she was really in love with him. While I acknowledge her being manipulated and in the bubble, I also take into account that she...through her brother...knew much more how the show worked right from the start. Not to mention, that she herself...and the other women...saw the connection that Ben had with Lauren. She and they commented on it. I just can't reconcile those two things. She is not stupid. She is not going to let herself fall for a guy that she sees so obviously into someone else...no matter what he says. She knows how things work. She was always suspicious of his feelings. I just don't buy the broken hearted F2. I saw more of a woman conscious of the possibility of the next lead staring her in the face. I saw the same thing last season with Ben and Kaitlyn.

Ben knew on Kaitlyn's season - from quite early on - that Kaitlyn didn't visit him and Shawn to see him - she came to see Shawn. He's no dummy and IMO put the puzzle pieces together right away. His question "Am I just spinning my wheels?" was never answered convincingly by Kaitlyn - and yet he stayed in spite of that. He escaped with few if any emotional scars because he knew what was going on. Perhaps only Ben and the producers know why and the rest of us are reduced to speculation - but my own speculation is that he was enticed by the possibility of being the next lead. The fact that he became the next lead only makes that speculation more plausible.

Like you, I saw JoJo in a very similar role this season to Ben's last season. Casting JoJo - with the depth of her immediate family's involvement in Reality TV dating shows - would be like casting a dancer from Riverdance for DWTS. She was a ringer and knew far more than any typical contestant how Reality TV works and specifically how this show works. Everyone on the show (including JoJo) had plenty of reasons to believe that they were all spinning their wheels. If she actually let herself fall for Ben then she's pretty dumb and I don't think she's dumb at all - she seems both smart and "street smart". Perhaps the reason that you didn't see much emotions from JoJo is the very same reason I didn't either - they just weren't there to be seen.

IMO JoJo made a good F2 in the same way that Ben made a good F3 and Shayne Lamas made a good F1 on Matt Grant's season - they all understood the role they were playing. I do believe that what Ben said about JoJo being "there" for him and someone he could count on for support was all true, and for doing all that he loved her - as a friend. She was able to be all those things because she knew what was really going on.
JMHO

iamreal2u wrote:^^ At the F3 RC JoJo pretty much knew that it was Lauren.  When they toasted and Lauren commented that she and Ben had a great week that was it.  JoJo turned away because it hit her that Lauren was now all in and this after J's date with Ben.   I think that was why she questioned so much the on the LCD.  

Actually, my concern was more about Lauren. She accepted a proposal for a lifetime commitment without knowing how he truly felt about the other woman. I do think that if Lauren had known how Ben felt so close to the FRC, she would have preferred to wait on the proposal and just date first. jmo

mindless wrote:I think the most misleading thing Ben said to JoJo was "We're on the same page". ILY I can maybe understand, since I do believe he loved her in some way, but how the heck were they ever on the same page, when Ben's reads "I can never say goodbye to Lauren"? I wish he'd been called out for that, but obviously it wouldn't have served anyone well at ATFR, since she's moving on as the Bachelorette. Still think he deserved to be called out.

Same page just means that they both understood the same things - I think that JoJo knew exactly what was going on and what was going to happen and what role she was to play - just as Ben knew this on Kaitlyn's season. That statement mislead us - but not JoJo.
JMHO

2observe wrote:

iamreal2u wrote:^^ At the F3 RC JoJo pretty much knew that it was Lauren.  When they toasted and Lauren commented that she and Ben had a great week that was it.  JoJo turned away because it hit her that Lauren was now all in and this after J's date with Ben.   I think that was why she questioned so much the on the LCD.  

Actually, my concern was more about Lauren.  She accepted a proposal for a lifetime commitment without knowing how he truly felt about the other woman.  I do think that if Lauren had known how Ben felt so close to the FRC, she would have preferred to wait on the proposal and just date first.  jmo

The second proposal at AFTR might have been for this reason, I ask you for forever without being with another woman and telling her ILY on the same day.

Lucas15 wrote:

mindless wrote:I think the most misleading thing Ben said to JoJo was "We're on the same page". ILY I can maybe understand, since I do believe he loved her in some way, but how the heck were they ever on the same page, when Ben's reads "I can never say goodbye to Lauren"? I wish he'd been called out for that, but obviously it wouldn't have served anyone well at ATFR, since she's moving on as the Bachelorette. Still think he deserved to be called out.

Same page just means that they both understood the same things  - I think that JoJo knew exactly what was going on and what was going to happen and what role she was to play - just as Ben knew this on Kaitlyn's season. That statement mislead us - but not JoJo.
JMHO

Well seems it did mislead her, since after the second waterfall conversation she told the camera they're clearly not on the same page after all.

As hard as it must be in the four months or so between filming ending and finale to be limited to super secret SHVs where the couple is in seclusion and can't leave the SH, my impression from the media rounds this past week is that Ben and Lauren used that time wisely to really talk through what went on during filming, the ILYs to JoJo etc. I have the impression Ben really "came clean" about everything, maybe Lauren was hurt, angry, upset, but they worked through it. And for Ben to re propose at ATFR, when he now feels so "detached" from filming, and after he and Lauren really had the chance to hash out what happened on show, really brought it full circle. They seem very much in sync, ready to move past the show drama, and go back to real life and continue building their relationship. JMO

2observe wrote:

iamreal2u wrote:^^ At the F3 RC JoJo pretty much knew that it was Lauren.  When they toasted and Lauren commented that she and Ben had a great week that was it.  JoJo turned away because it hit her that Lauren was now all in and this after J's date with Ben.   I think that was why she questioned so much the on the LCD.  

Actually, my concern was more about Lauren.  She accepted a proposal for a lifetime commitment without knowing how he truly felt about the other woman.  I do think that if Lauren had known how Ben felt so close to the FRC, she would have preferred to wait on the proposal and just date first.  jmo

When Lauren learned of it after Ben told him the day after the proposal, Lauren had every right to leave....To not force herself to be with Ben. We've seen couples who are already done by the time ATFR is shown. Yet 3 months later, she's still with him and their relationship seems stronger than ever. They're moving forward and she's moving in a few weeks to Denver. All their families and friends coming out in full support (unlike anything we have seen in the past). We have not seen what Ben told her but I bet there's more to the story than we would ever know because if not, why would Lauren put up with that?

She's no dummy, she seems not in it only for fame, she seems to be a level headed person.  They dated for 3 months off camera where the real things happend and Ben proposed again during the ATFR. She still accepted.

2observe wrote:

iamreal2u wrote:^^ At the F3 RC JoJo pretty much knew that it was Lauren.  When they toasted and Lauren commented that she and Ben had a great week that was it.  JoJo turned away because it hit her that Lauren was now all in and this after J's date with Ben.   I think that was why she questioned so much the on the LCD.  

Actually, my concern was more about Lauren.  She accepted a proposal for a lifetime commitment without knowing how he truly felt about the other woman.  I do think that if Lauren had known how Ben felt so close to the FRC, she would have preferred to wait on the proposal and just date first.  jmo

I'm not sure what she would have preferred actually. I'm not sure knowing before would have made a difference . The bottomline to me is, Jojo opened up the convo that made Ben admit his feelings. I don't think he was going to go there with either girl. Her insecurity moved her to get that sign from Ben. Even after he admitted to Jojo, he gave her no further assurance it was her . She left not knowing similar to Lauren. If Lauren had pursued a similar course and needed a sign, I think Ben would have opened up to Lauren too. She didn't . Plain and simple. It's interesting that Ben said it was Jojo who helped him see things more clearly. She said, which girl can't you let go. Ben said his mind went to Lauren. He must have left Jojo that night more sure it was Lauren. I credit Lauren's trust in Ben to handle things no matter how clumsily he might have done it. She wasn't naive either because with tears, she surmised Ben loved Jojo too. Jojo lacked the confidence that Lauren had and so it produced different results and different convos in the end. Jmo.