The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - ATFR - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* #3

Lucas15 wrote:

Idlemess wrote:That first date was extremely natural and the conversation was real and flowed. I think they both had heart eyes on that date.

To me the thing that struck me from the first date was when Ben explained to Lauren how he had seen the depth of love his mother has for his father and how he forgot about that through the fun times - but seeing her fear of loss of the man she loved made him realize that was what he wanted in his life.

IMO this season is my all time favorite because I was able to watch Lauren go from "interested" to "pinch me because I'm not sure if I'm awake or dreaming" to "If this was the last time Ben said he loves me I don't know what I'd do" and it all was caught on camera. I think as Ben and Lauren watched their parts over, and Ben got a chance to see the ITMs that he probably never saw during filming, he realized that in Lauren he had found exactly what he started out looking for.

It would have totally blown my mind if he had passed up that love. I'm not surprised that it seems as though he never considered passing that up; smart man.
JMHO

While there is so much substance to so many of these posts re. this couple's progression to the Final Rose Altar there is one thing that stands above all things for me: Ben was speechless and had only tears to express his feelings for Lauren to his sister during that hometown date .  This one scene was as telling as anything we were ever shown in any season - and it would have been so easy to edit out for the sake of fostering the pros/cons dilemma that the lead is usually shown in weighing out his final decision and viewer's suspense.  That, IMO, is a very rare moment so early in any relationship.

He mentioned that seeing her for the first time was as close to "love at first sight" he has ever been.  That's a pretty strong analogy particularly when most people have never experienced it.  These words far surpasses the traditional expressions like, "I knew there was something special about him/her"-type of comments that leads would make.  

The rest of his "dilemma" in deciding if he was more in love with JoJo or Lauren was less a battle of knowledge but more a battle of confidence in his emotion.  Remember, his story line was "I'm unlovable".  That is a fairly low "self-esteem" statement whether it was manufactured or true, which I believe it was. Rarely have I met 20-something year old men who exude emotional confidence and a full sense of self. 

What I saw here, and what I imagine may have truth to it, is found in his relationship with his parents - his mother in particular.  Ben is very close to them, and like many only children, they have a very nurturing and protective up-bringing.  What I believe he felt more in JoJo was that nurturing love that he is familiar with from his mother.  He stated many times, that she was the one who was always first at his side with confidence, encouragement, words of affirmation -- just like his mother is/was to him.  That, alone, can be a strong foundation to find feelings of love for her.  

Of course he could well have made a relationship with her - because she reminded him (IMO) of his mother and offered him what he was very familiar with and comfortable with.  He wouldn't likely see any risk in choosing her - how she made him feel was safe - and he said as much! Where I saw his real journey was in experiencing a different type of love that a mom can't give a son.  It was here that his insecurities were found - "is this too good to be true"; "what if I'm wrong"; "can she be so perfect"; etc (all of which was tapping on that one vein of self-confidence that was particularly weak in him.

I anticipate this will be a lasting couple and will become "the face" of the franchise.  I would also anticipate that in future promotions of the show and in "where are they now" interviews that will follow once this show is no longer picked up on the franchise, we will only see, Trista & Ryan (because they were first), Molly and Jason (because of the infamous ending) and Ben & Lauren (because it was a love at first sight moment).   Now, we might well always see something of Sean and Catherine or JP & Ashley because of the televised wedding and their overall likability - but I believe it is Trista, Jason and Ben who will be the most celebrated successes of the show.

Needless to say, if there ever was to be an immediate wedding to satisfy the dream of Mike Fleiss in the 20+ years of this show, it would have been with this couple.  They aren't dating to "see where this goes" - they are dating because they seem to be in a committed relationship that goes far beyond an engagement ring and what they can make of their 15 minutes of fame.

Tiger Tip, perfect explanation of the difference he felt with Lauren and Jojo.

Tiger Tip wrote:What I believe he felt more in JoJo was that nurturing love that he is familiar with from his mother.  He stated many times, that she was the one who was always first at his side with confidence, encouragement, words of affirmation -- just like his mother is/was to him.  That, alone, can be a strong foundation to find feelings of love for her.

So much in this post I agree with I don't quite know where to begin. I guess I'll try and start with Ben's feelings for JoJo as you tackled here.

IMO being on this show is an experience unlike anything any of us have likely experienced and we can only imagine what it would be like. You sign up to create a TV show that is more scripted than reality, and a key element of that show is a suspenseful ending where you have to decide between two loves - one for F2 and one for F1 - and the producers are going to do their very best to get footage showing that it's a real horse race down to the wire. That means you'll spend as much time with F2 as you will with F1; you'll make out (or more) with both and in most cases you'll form a bond with both, and part of that bond is going to be a set of emotions, trust and closeness that can be described as love. And the producers are going to capture that set of emotions the best way they can and edit to make them seem as equal as possible - even if they are not.

Do I believe that Ben loved JoJo - I guess the answer has to be at least a conditional "yes". Do I believe there was ever any doubt in his mind who he was going to choose as F1? - I guess for me the answer is an emphatic "no". IMO Ben was comfortable and felt "safe" around JoJo because she didn't pose a threat to him - he knew (when he actually had any chance to think about what he knew) that he could always walk away from JoJo and while he might feel some sadness and a sense of loss in doing so, he knew that he could. The very nature of the show Ben signed up to do required him to say goodbye to F2 at the end.

IMO the difference was Lauren was someone he couldn't walk away from and (from what he has said after the show aired) he always knew he never would. To me I guess that's one difference between loving someone and both loving and being in love with someone and while IMO Ben's feelings for Lauren have increased many fold since filming ended, they were strong enough during filming for Ben to know who he could say goodbye to and who he couldn't.

Tiger Tip wrote:Needless to say, if there ever was to be an immediate wedding to satisfy the dream of Mike Fleiss in the 20+ years of this show, it would have been with this couple.  They aren't dating to "see where this goes" - they are dating because they seem to be in a committed relationship that goes far beyond an engagement ring and what they can make of their 15 minutes of fame.

I agree and to me I was a little disappointed watching the ATFR that they didn't marry because I thought they were the most likely couple to have done so. I think they came close actually and had Ben or Lauren pushed the issue I think they would have. My guess is that Ben knew exactly what the show was going to do after he was at the ATFR filming a couple of weeks before the finale - I don't think he could possibly have missed how CH was baiting him on that issue. And I think the reason they didn't had nothing to do with any lack of confidence in their relationship nor in their commitment to each other nor that either is not "ready" to get married but rather in the type of wedding they want. From interviews after the show I get the impression that Lauren would like the experience of planning her wedding, shopping for a dress, picking a venue and guest list and an ATFR wedding would have taken all those experiences away from her, and that was something Ben didn't want to deprive her of. I don't see them interested in that "15 minutes" as it seems Ben expressed no real interest in DWTS when "approached" by ABC so that was more than 15 minutes (and likely around $250,000) he passed up to be able to have a normal relationship with Lauren.

I can also see them becoming reasonably close to Trista & Ryan - especially after they both get to Denver - and Ryan in particular has become a big fan of Lauren.
JHMO

I also think they want more than 6 and 4 people from their families and friends to be at their wedding instead of a random studio audience. Both have tight group of friends and have more important family members than just siblings and parents. For them it's not about proving a point and giving claim to the bach producers of another 'OMG, never before!!!' moment. They both have genuine intention to make this relation work, and they want to do it their way. Jmo.

^^^ ITA Fingersandtoes

On another topic, during the season we had several conversations about blogs - especially Ben's, and to what extent Ben writes them or to what extent the show writes them. In line with this I found an interesting comparison.

On the finale, when Ben picked out the ring, the edit made it seem as though he still didn't know at that time who he was going to propose to, and had an epiphany of sorts when picking out the ring and suddenly knew. I thought that more than a little bit preposterous, but Ben's blog had this to say:

Ben wrote:When I started this journey I was really excited about meeting Neil Lane. I imagined it being an absolute celebration picking out the ring for the woman I was going to marry. But when he got there, I was still torn. That's when Neil started asking me about what she was like and how I felt about her. Neil is so passionate about his rings and about love that he wants to hear my take on my future bride and what emotions she makes me feel because that helps him know what type of ring is best for her. And at first, I really couldn't answer him. But the more he probed, the more he asked about how she made me feel and what our future looked like, without knowing any of the specifics of my situation, I just knew. There was one girl and one relationship that kept popping up in my mind first. I couldn't ignore that. In that moment, I knew.

So Ben's blog seems to me to follow the narrative of the edit.

But then a couple of days after the finale aired, Ben was asked the question in this interview:

Ben wrote:Q: Ben, when you were meeting with Neil Lane, was there something about the ring you chose that just made you realize Lauren was the one for you, or was that just the magic of editing?

Ben Higgins: I would love to say that that ring had magical powers, but it doesn't. Well, there was an "aha moment" right during that, and I think the aha moment was just that "This is almost done!" I picked my ring out and I had already known in advance who I was going to be proposing to and that I wanted to propose to her. So the aha moment was actually one of just, like, "This is going to work." That was it.

Q: Ben, why did you pick that specific engagement ring out?

Ben Higgins: Definitely, yeah, so I sat down with Neil Lane and had a couple of ideas of what I wanted to pick out. And then he just kind of asked about Lauren. He said, "Who is she? What stood out to you about her?" And I told him. I said, "You know, the moment she walked out of the limo, she caught my eye." And he said, "Well, what ring here catches your eye first?" And I looked down, and that was the ring sitting right there. It was shining, sparkling bright. I said, "Okay, this is it!" He goes, "I think that's the best choice." So that's what we did.

I think everyone needs to draw their own conclusions about the lead's blogs; sometimes I think they will give interesting supplemental information (like the fact that there were rattlesnakes all over the mountain top on Ben and Lauren's first 1-1 date) but other times they are going to simply support the storyline and edit to make it seem more believable - even if reality could be quite different and for me I am going to take a lot of things in the blogs with a grain of salt.
JMHO

Tiger Tip wrote:
snip ...

He mentioned that seeing her for the first time was as close to "love at first sight" he has ever been.  That's a pretty strong analogy particularly when most people have never experienced it.  These words far surpasses the traditional expressions like, "I knew there was something special about him/her"-type of comments that leads would make.

snip ...

This show seems to have a rather predictable formula - refined over the last 31 journeys and I have little doubt will be the same for the 32nd one as well. Villains will vill, crazies will cray, the fantasy suite will be whatever each viewers particular fantasy surrounding that date is, and at the end the lead will be confused and uncertain who to pick out of the two they love, and only get the necessary clarity at the last moment - just before F2 steps out of the hovercraft that transported them to their chamber of horrors the FRC location. Trying to make a "love at first sight" reality fit into this scripted / Reality TV formula is like trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

It also presents a very unique challenge to the lead - they know who they want - they knew for a long time - but they have to make sure that their choice stays engaged in the journey - believes in the possible outcome - trusts that the lead is somehow going to get them both there at the end - and somehow survives the complications that the show has to provide to hide that love at first sight and make it still seem like a neck and neck horse race to the finish line. I guess the answer is that if the choice also feels love at first sight - together they somehow find a way to make it all work. To me it makes for pretty compelling TV.
JMHO

I just watched the today show segment with Kathie Lee, and Ben said something strange. He said Lauren asked him why he was so quiet and was not talking on the day of the ATFR. He said he was just tired. Lauren was concerned enough to bring it up. I do believe he was tired but I believe it was more than that.

I bring this up because these two have a hard road ahead. I think it is great he turned down DWTS, and they get back to real life as soon as possible. I believe Ben is missing being the center of attention, he had/has mixed feelings about JoJo and he is/was just trying to navigate through them. I know he loves Lauren and I know he made the right decision but seeing Jo probably threw him for a loop. This takes nothing away from Lauren, just must have been a confusing time. I also heard he had no idea it was going to be Jo as the bachelorette.

I also think there is a reason he is backtracking about watching Jo as the bachelorette. He is a smart man, and I don't think they should watch her show. He said himself they have to be cognisant of each other and he is right! Their relationship needs to come first.

Wishing them the best but they have a ways to go imo.

I think they'll be okay as long as everyone is content to play the same roles in the relationship they have right now. IA it seems very similar to Trista and Ryan- where she seems to be the family leader and acts as a calming influence on her SO, while he's up there in the clouds being kind and sensitive and thoughtful. As long as they're both happy with that dynamic, I think they'll be fine.

Jojo was fun for him, sexy, dangerous, a little exciting, but I don't see how she would have been happy to talk him off the ledge, as his mom described it. It's just not her imo. Lauren as a big sis to 3 seems to take to that role naturally and he obviously worshiped her on the show at least, so assuming his feelings haven't changed (I don't know, I haven't followed them closely to see how he seems to feel now), they're a great match.

I liked what Ben said on the Today Show. Lauren asking about his silence in the car ride and double checking (is he tired or upset?) tells you how much figuring out these couples need to do post show. Not even the safehouse visits prepare them for real life, and she's trying to figure out how to read her man , good for her. 

Still, I feel like their 'road' will be slightly easier than the last several couples, especially since they are establishing a home base quickly. It's funny, theyre so young, I didn't expect them to have their heads on so straight! I'm realizing I like boring, low key, and nice, vs what the franchise has given us lately .

I liked that as well, it shows their level of communication this early on. And in a way she seemed to tell him if it was anything else, it was ok to talk about it with her. That night was huge for them, it shifted the established dynamic and balance, private safety, to being out in the open (which is a relief) and opening the door to scrutiny and speculation. I bet they're eager to get the media tour over with, head to Warsaw and then to Denver.

I personally don't think they have a long road ahead of them .There's something about presenting yourself honestly aka being true to yourself. I think Lauren and Ben did this for the most part. During the SHV's, they built upon that knowledge and relationship. It's during this SHV's where couples find out just how compatible they are or realize they're not. Ben and Lauren to me are the first part. They realized just how much more they fit. She's very athletic as stated in her recent periscope interview posted in the fan thread . She played several sports in school and enjoys golf which is one of Ben's favorite thing to do. They have so much in common . Ben stated in one of his commentaries about Jojo, it's not going to be easy, but it's going to be real. The not going to be easy part struck me. These two have the kind of personality to go at each other . Maybe kinda opposite types. Opposites might attract but it's not always good for every relationship . Maybe it wouldn't have been good for Ben and Jojo long term.

With Lauren, they had fewer personality clashes thus things went smoother. Ben said it was too good to true. After their engagement, their love was tested by his admissions to Lauren. That could have broke them early on. But they showed they are good communicators to have worked things out. Probably made them stronger. With Lauren, they complement each other and that's what many other relationships are built upon. Because who they were on the show has been the same as off the show , their relationship has accelerated. When/if Jojo finds her man, you'll realize why it wasn't meant to be with Ben. You'll see what it looks like when a guy loves her fully. Her real test is when the cameras are turned off. Will they make it ? Thus far , Ben and Lauren has shown they have, and it doesn't look like things are going to change anytime soon. Looks like what they have is very real. Jhmo .

bleuberry wrote:I liked what Ben said on the Today Show. Lauren asking about his silence in the car ride and double checking (is he tired or upset?) tells you how much figuring out these couples need to do post show. Not even the safehouse visits prepare them for real life, and she's trying to figure out how to read her man , good for her.

I've been married to my wife for over 30 years and something that I've learned is that while I can read her emotions like an open book, I can't read her mind - IMO no one can read minds. But in that 30 years we've never had one of those "What's wrong?' / "Nothing!" conversations. When I know she's showing an unexpected emotion I ask her why - and she tells me why.

I didn't see that clip (at least that I remember) but I will give Lauren a lot of credit for knowing Ben well enough to sense an unexpected emotion and ask him why he was feeling it. She needs to keep on doing this (and Ben needs to reciprocate) because she will never be able to read his mind all the time - nor he hers. Having that confidence and commitment to ask this kind of question is one of the foundations that long relationships are built on.
JMHO