The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - F1 to F4 - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* - #2

JoJo's parents were nice to Ben and defended him. It's only the brothers who were rude.

I keep reading posts which claims that Ben HAD to tell Jojo he loved her because we saw him tell Lauren. But, since we know that Ben told Jojo he loved her, and since she was first, didn't he HAVE to tell Lauren too???

2observe wrote:I keep reading posts which claims that Ben HAD to tell Jojo he loved her because we saw him tell Lauren.  But, since we know that Ben told Jojo he loved her, and since she was first, didn't he HAVE to tell Lauren too???

IMO, since the show always edits for a suspenseful ending where viewers (in general) don't know who the lead picks until someone gets out of the limo (in this case - helicopter) first, yes. IMO it didn't matter who he said it to first - if they were going to show one ILY then he had to say it twice so they could show two - otherwise there's no doubt in the ending.

I know I've posted this opinion before, but IMO the two "ILY" were part of the storyline and it was written before filming started - it was probably well known by the producers even as they filmed Kaitlyn's season and were matching storylines for the next bachelor season with possible leads. The two ILY to two different girls has been a pivotal part of the drama for this season and they just don't leave things like this hang on a hope and a prayer that they are going to get something good to work with. They make certain they will get something good to work with.

JMHO

I've never believed that the "scripting" that the producers do, goes as far as telling a lead he has to say ILY to his final 2 girls or specific things of that nature. I think they may try to manipulate a desired outcome, based on personalities of lead and contestants but as far as informing the parties involved, i dont buy that as, face it, theyre not actors, plain and simple, and could never pull it off. IMO, each season is a crap shoot for tptb and they make it up as the season progresses, hoping the certain personalities cast will act as anticipated and provide them the drama they strive for. I do agree that tptb have a plan in mind, and its the basis for their casting process, and the reason that some get chosen.... But i dont think the lead or contestants are in on it...theyre nothing more than little puppets and manipulated to do and say things without them even realizing.

northernviewer wrote:I've never believed that the "scripting" that the producers do, goes as far as telling a lead he has to say ILY to his final 2 girls or specific things of that nature.  I think they may try to manipulate a desired outcome, based on personalities of lead and contestants but as far as informing the parties involved, i dont buy that as, face it, theyre not actors, plain and simple, and could never pull it off.  IMO, each season is a crap shoot for tptb and they make it up as the season progresses, hoping the certain personalities cast will act as anticipated and provide them the drama they strive for.  I do agree that tptb have a plan in mind, and its the basis for their casting process, and the reason that some get chosen.... But i dont think the lead or contestants are in on it...theyre nothing more than little puppets and manipulated to do and say things without them even realizing.  

I agree. If it was that scripted, seasons like Brad 1.0 and Juan Pablo would have never happened. They can't force anyone to say or do anything except be there for the duration of their contract. If Ben's really as nice of a guy as he's made to be, he wouldn't intentionally mess with someone to that extent just because the producers told him to. He may be a puppet, but surely he has a conscience.

mindless wrote:

northernviewer wrote:I've never believed that the "scripting" that the producers do, goes as far as telling a lead he has to say ILY to his final 2 girls or specific things of that nature.  I think they may try to manipulate a desired outcome, based on personalities of lead and contestants but as far as informing the parties involved, i dont buy that as, face it, theyre not actors, plain and simple, and could never pull it off.  IMO, each season is a crap shoot for tptb and they make it up as the season progresses, hoping the certain personalities cast will act as anticipated and provide them the drama they strive for.  I do agree that tptb have a plan in mind, and its the basis for their casting process, and the reason that some get chosen.... But i dont think the lead or contestants are in on it...theyre nothing more than little puppets and manipulated to do and say things without them even realizing.  

I agree. If it was that scripted, seasons like Brad 1.0 and Juan Pablo would have never happened. They can't force anyone to say or do anything except be there for the duration of their contract. If Ben's really as nice of a guy as he's made to be, he wouldn't intentionally mess with someone to that extent just because the producers told him to. He may be a puppet, but surely he has a conscience.

I think Ben was chosen as the lead as he comes across, to me anyway, as a young, naive, trusting and romantic guy.....and im sure tptb saw him as putty in their hands. I have a feeling Ben didnt realize the ramifications of what telling 2 girls that he loved them, until last Monday night after the fallout began after the episode was aired. I can imagine that his trusted production crew kept convincing him that everything was going to be just fine

I don't think the producers flat out told him to say ILY- like a completely scripted scenario, neither ILY felt scripted to me in the least, but I bet they sure as heck encouraged it! They probably had it story boarded out, then heavily encouraged Ben to speak how he feels; made him feel safe and kind of brainwashed him to think saying ILY to both and really speaking how he feels and not holding back is the good choice.

I can't believe the whip lash this season. It went from "Ben is ALL about Lauren, no one else, she has it locked up" to "he is the most confused bachelor of all time and couldn't figure or who he was going to pick until the final hour" over the course of ONE episode. I don't totally buy it. It was always Lauren, though his feelings for JoJo definitely grew. Producers played on that- the emotionally charged and not very relationship savvy Ben and ENCOURAGED him heavily to speak what he was feeling to both. Boom. They get their drama that was previously lacking.

ETA: other ways they can get Ben to say ILY to both: whisper doubts about his front runner (Lauren). Make him heavily question how she feels about him. At the same time, keep whispering to give JoJo another look. Keep talking her up, telling him how in love she is with him. That kind of manipulation would make anyone take a pause with the person they really want and allow them to become more emotionally available to the second.

Lucas15 wrote:

2observe wrote:I keep reading posts which claims that Ben HAD to tell Jojo he loved her because we saw him tell Lauren.  But, since we know that Ben told Jojo he loved her, and since she was first, didn't he HAVE to tell Lauren too???

IMO, since the show always edits for a suspenseful ending where viewers (in general) don't know who the lead picks until someone gets out of the limo (in this case - helicopter) first, yes. IMO it didn't matter who he said it to first - if they were going to show one ILY then he had to say it twice so they could show two - otherwise there's no doubt in the ending.

I know I've posted this opinion before, but IMO the two "ILY" were part of the storyline and it was written before filming started - it was probably well known by the producers even as they filmed Kaitlyn's season and were matching storylines for the next bachelor season with possible leads. The two ILY to two different girls has been a pivotal part of the drama for this season and they just don't leave things like this hang on a hope and a prayer that they are going to get something good to work with. They make certain they will get something good to work with.

JMHO

I agree Lucas. I cannot help but think RS was right and he was really into Lauren B for a while. I think he cared deeply for JoJo, but I doubt he was in love with her. I do believe that could have been part of the story board. Not 100% sure, but that is what my gut says.

The truth is Ben wasn't actually in love with either. Just emotionally manipulated by the producers and in a highly romantically charged situation. Yes, the groundwork can develop for love, but not actual, real love.  True love develops after filming if it's going to happen, pretty much all contestants say so- even the ones who find marriage. I hope by now Ben realizes he is actually in love with LoLo, and I'm sure he recognizes the JoJo stuff was bubble infatuation/in like & lust/ manipulation from the producers to get ILYs out for both F2 during filming. I hope Lauren recognizes this too. No matter how or why it went down- he chose her. She's F1. Time to put all the other noise behind them in move on. 8 weeks of crazy filming and how they met is nothing compared to a potential lifetime.

Maybe Ben's 2 ILY's is his way of being able to claim he stuck to his values through the last weeks, that he'd never be intimate with someone unless he was in love with that person. Ben gets to spend the rest of his life reflecting upon his last intimate encounter before marriage and know that at least it was with someone who loved the poor unlovable guy.
Just a thought - and I've not had many thoughts around the season

Mr&MrsSmith wrote:Maybe Ben's 2 ILY's is his way of being able to claim he stuck to his values through the last weeks, that he'd never be intimate with someone unless he was in love with that person. Ben gets to spend the rest of his life reflecting upon his last intimate encounter before marriage and know that at least it was with someone who loved the poor unlovable guy.
Just a thought - and I've not had many thoughts around the season

Huh. Interesting thought and a good take on the situation. I do remember during Ben's Sex Ed class on Kaitlyn's season he explained to the kids "hopefully you are in love and feel and attachment to the person" or something along those lines.... So, to have sex with both, he needs to convince himself he's in love with both? Lol- maybe.

That being said, I personally think he had sex with Caila too. The break up scene where she came out of the car- to me while they never came out and said it, that's what they were dancing around- did he know she was going home before he had sex with her? His answer- "no, that wouldn't have been helpful to either of us." Go back and watch that scene- it was definitely about sex, IMO.

sosleepy wrote:The truth is Ben wasn't actually in love with either. Just emotionally manipulated by the producers and in a highly romantically charged situation. Yes, the groundwork can develop for love, but not actual, real love.  True love develops after filming if it's going to happen, pretty much all contestants say so- even the ones who find marriage. I hope by now Ben realizes he is actually in love with LoLo, and I'm sure he recognizes the JoJo stuff was bubble infatuation/in like & lust/ manipulation from the producers to get ILYs out for both F2 during filming. I hope Lauren recognizes this too. No matter how or why it went down- he chose her. She's F1. Time to put all the other noise behind them in move on. 8 weeks of crazy filming and how they met is nothing compared to a potential lifetime.

I agree that Ben wasnt in love with either at that point. After i watched last week, I posted that any 26 yr old that can profess his love to 2 girls in a 2 day period, isnt really in love at all. He obviously had strong feelings for both but his feelings for Lauren were stronger. He may very well love her now, but i think at the time it was just Bach bubble-gum love for them both.