Re: The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - F1 to F4 - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* - #2

by Lucas15 Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:48 pm

agentcurls wrote:
Kashathediva wrote:Foiler was as recent as last season: Kaitlin chose no one. Snapchat changed that.
Maybe because they were unsuccessful with that one, they will try again soon?

IMO they probably won't, but if they do they will be unsuccessful; with few exceptions foiler attempts have failed to foil. They got us on Des' season, but failed on Brad 2 (eventually) as well as Kaitlyn's. Even Jason's season got spoiled before the FRC aired and SM was nowhere near as prevalent then as it is now.

The world has become a much smaller place because of SM (Facebook puts 6 degrees of separation now at 3.57 degrees - heck for that matter I'm at 3.77 and I'm a nobody) and there are so many people out there who know things and aren't under any sort of contract to make them shut up. And even those that are under contract can find a way if they want to. Like him / hate him but RS is pretty well known, easy to contact, and seems to keep his sources close to the vest - trustworthy for anyone who wants to share what they know.

I think they accept SM and spoilers and ignore them as best they can (just as they ignored Snapchat last B'ette season) and try and create a dramatic ending even knowing that in some circles everyone will know it.

by grace8136 Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:51 pm

I feel like MF or maybe CH has used the Mesnick line before because I seem to remember us discussing that it would only be the lead crying over a railing. Does anyone remember that?

Lucus, IA, but always hope that MF's disdain for RS keeps him pushing for a foiler. Plus, won't ratings eventually go down if every spoiler is correct? At some point, no one will buy the misdirection.

by grace8136 Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:54 pm

agentcurls wrote:Not nay-saying the outcome or spoiler or the undeniable LaurBen chemistry and love story, however...some things to ponder:

How long has it been since we've had a foiler and are we due for one?

Why does MF say it's his favorite season since Jason Mesnick's? Is it because something very unexpected happens that will shock the audience? Or is it because Ben & Lauren's love story is one for the ages? Or is it simply because he likes to watch nice people suffer immensely? (Ummmmm, yeah.)

Why all the 3/4 of a Mesnick references? What does that mean exactly? (I don't think it's a comellete switcheroo either)

Lauren seems to be telling Ben all he needs to hear and he is falling very hard, but have they built a solid foundation? I don't see the friendship first IN THE EDIT, like several of the other couples like Jason & Molly, Sean & Catherine, Chris & Des, even Ali & Frank (her intended F1). More often than not, F1 is more of a slow-burn than a hot flame. (Admittedly, I didn't watch Ben F, Brad 2.0, JuanPa, Andi, or FarmerChris seasons). Have they switched up this formula?

It's true, we aren't seeing that same magnetic starry-eyed attraction between BenJo as LaurBen, but yet I am still seeing a great romance and a really nice friendship intimacy blossoming between these two.
He has stated that he feels the most comfortable around her and most like himself. He also said "she makes me FEEL better about myself."
JoJo has been very nurturing, much like Ben describes Mrs. Higgins.
Maybe after JoJo lets her guard down, there are surprises in store?

After the Chantal & Brooks foilers anything is possible with this franchise. I just remember some posters on here really building the case for Des & Chris and it turns out they were right all along. Im not saying I'm right in any of this, but just putting it out there as I find the Ben & JoJo edit an interesting one.

Some have discussed the possibility of JoJo taking herself out at F3? Has that been done before on The Bachelor? MF would love that and so would all the female empowerment junkies out there. That would leave Caila as the F2 that Ben slips the ILY to & maybe they will make a case for that to occur moving forward?

But yet still, there a few things that say Lauren is totally IT. He does act differently around Lauren, or at least it seems different in the EDIT. He's done a few special things for Lauren, too (the picture of thier first time together, the walk through Mex City).
And Lauren's SM activity or lack there of (no promos, guarded, detached) make the strongest case for her as F1 other than the spoiler.

I love your posts. Andi took herself out at F3. It is Caila on the balcony, but that ILU is spliced, so who knows. Interesting that they used her for that spot though.

by Kashathediva Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:01 pm

I agree with the thinking the Mesnick line is along the way of "the lady doth protest too much". Look how downplayed Ben being upset about Becca's departure was.

by sosleepy Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:33 pm

grace8136 wrote:
peggy0221 wrote:Maybe the blindside is Lauren didn't accept the proposal and only agreed to keep on dating? Just wild guess.

And did Ben admit he is engaged/in love during media round?
I remember some previous leads would admit they were in love or even engaged, cmiiw.

Yes, Lauren's been pretty grounded. I could see her saying let's wait on an engagement if Ben tells her he was also in love with another. I doubt Ben would fall apart over that though. Still, if MF got a no to a proposal, that would be a first.

There just ain't no way the Lauren I'm seeing is saying no to any kind of proposal from Ben Higgens. Girl is in deep. Just as, if not deeper, than Ben. And that's saying something, because Ben is in the deep end.

by moonchild Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:33 pm

agentcurls wrote:Not nay-saying the outcome or spoiler or the undeniable LaurBen chemistry and love story, however...some things to ponder:

How long has it been since we've had a foiler and are we due for one?

Why does MF say it's his favorite season since Jason Mesnick's? Is it because something very unexpected happens that will shock the audience? Or is it because Ben & Lauren's love story is one for the ages? Or is it simply because he likes to watch nice people suffer immensely? (Ummmmm, yeah.)

Why all the 3/4 of a Mesnick references? What does that mean exactly? (I don't think it's a comellete switcheroo either)

Lauren seems to be telling Ben all he needs to hear and he is falling very hard, but have they built a solid foundation? I don't see the friendship first IN THE EDIT, like several of the other couples like Jason & Molly, Sean & Catherine, Chris & Des, even Ali & Frank (her intended F1). More often than not, F1 is more of a slow-burn than a hot flame. (Admittedly, I didn't watch Ben F, Brad 2.0, JuanPa, Andi, or FarmerChris seasons). Have they switched up this formula?

It's true, we aren't seeing that same magnetic starry-eyed attraction between BenJo as LaurBen, but yet I am still seeing a great romance and a really nice friendship intimacy blossoming between these two.
He has stated that he feels the most comfortable around her and most like himself. He also said "she makes me FEEL better about myself."
JoJo has been very nurturing, much like Ben describes Mrs. Higgins.
Maybe after JoJo lets her guard down, there are surprises in store?

After the Chantal & Brooks foilers anything is possible with this franchise. I just remember some posters on here really building the case for Des & Chris and it turns out they were right all along. Im not saying I'm right in any of this, but just putting it out there as I find the Ben & JoJo edit an interesting one.

Some have discussed the possibility of JoJo taking herself out at F3? Has that been done before on The Bachelor? MF would love that and so would all the female empowerment junkies out there. That would leave Caila as the F2 that Ben slips the ILY to & maybe they will make a case for that to occur moving forward?

But yet still, there a few things that say Lauren is totally IT. He does act differently around Lauren, or at least it seems different in the EDIT. He's done a few special things for Lauren, too (the picture of thier first time together, the walk through Mex City).
And Lauren's SM activity or lack there of (no promos, guarded, detached) make the strongest case for her as F1 other than the spoiler.

I agree, AC, with this franchise anything can happen. I skipped down the Des/Brooks primrose path, buying the love story they were presenting hook, line and sinker. There were subtle hints that it was Chris in the end, but every time I saw something that I questioned, I could easily dismiss it because of the love story that I wanted to see. I just hope everyone is willing to keep their eyes and ears open to whatever might not fit with the story that is being presented at this time and accept his choice whoever it might be. I was buying the spoiler totally at first. It just seemed so obvious. So obvious that it has made me try to look at this from different angles so I am not "blindsided" again. I would have to say, if Ben had to choose someone at this point, I don't see how it could be anyone other than LaurenB. He is smitten. But, with that said, I do see the LB relationship beginning to plateau and the JoJo relationship starting to take wings. They also presented the problem to overcome Monday night. Will JoJo let her walls down to let herself fall in love with the guy that worries that he might be unloveable. JMO, but I think it's still up in the air how this might end up.

by Lucas15 Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:34 pm

grace8136 wrote:Lucus, IA, but always hope that MF's disdain for RS keeps him pushing for a foiler. Plus, won't ratings eventually go down if every spoiler is correct? At some point, no one will buy the misdirection.

IMO there probably is a personal disdain MF has for RS, but foilers haven't stopped RS in the past and probably won't stop him in the future. I also don't think that RS and the spoilers have hurt ratings and the inevitability of spoilers - whether by RS or through SM or even accidental Snapchats - has to be viewed as something that should be used to advantage in whatever way is possible, or ignored. For the most part the show controls the bigger source of influence on ratings - the tabloids. RS and boards like this one are very small potatoes in the big scheme of 7+ million viewers. And as I think we've seen, the show has considerable influence over the tabloids and is able to get them to manipulate how reporting on the show goes - for free and little or no effort.

JMHO

by MVMom39forever Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:51 pm

I see Ben and Lauren as being so giddy in love, and it appears to be mutual. The two can't stop smiling around each other. I don't know about the friendship foundation, but does it really matter for the purpose of this show?? The two of them can't keep their hands or lips off each other and that's all Ben is thinking about just as many leads before him.

Whereas I can see Ben earning his Bachelor paycheck, especially with Jo Jo and Caila. It seems like he is tap dancing as fast as he can to get them to fall for him. He is pleading with them and they both are playing coy.

I am really curious to watch how Jo Jo and Caila progress to dropping the I love you to Ben. In many ways, these next episodes seem more about determining the next Bachelorette then the f1. The body language in last episode seemed forced to me

Just like I never saw Brooks that into Des(and Chris was all in), I just don't see either Caila, Amanda or Jo Jo that into Ben. They may say they are on the couch with other girls or in ITMs. But it's not popping on the screen IMHO. Not yet at least.

by tennischick80 Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:01 pm

moonchild wrote:
agentcurls wrote:Not nay-saying the outcome or spoiler or the undeniable LaurBen chemistry and love story, however...some things to ponder:

How long has it been since we've had a foiler and are we due for one?

Why does MF say it's his favorite season since Jason Mesnick's? Is it because something very unexpected happens that will shock the audience? Or is it because Ben & Lauren's love story is one for the ages? Or is it simply because he likes to watch nice people suffer immensely? (Ummmmm, yeah.)

Why all the 3/4 of a Mesnick references? What does that mean exactly? (I don't think it's a comellete switcheroo either)

Lauren seems to be telling Ben all he needs to hear and he is falling very hard, but have they built a solid foundation? I don't see the friendship first IN THE EDIT, like several of the other couples like Jason & Molly, Sean & Catherine, Chris & Des, even Ali & Frank (her intended F1). More often than not, F1 is more of a slow-burn than a hot flame. (Admittedly, I didn't watch Ben F, Brad 2.0, JuanPa, Andi, or FarmerChris seasons). Have they switched up this formula?

It's true, we aren't seeing that same magnetic starry-eyed attraction between BenJo as LaurBen, but yet I am still seeing a great romance and a really nice friendship intimacy blossoming between these two.
He has stated that he feels the most comfortable around her and most like himself. He also said "she makes me FEEL better about myself."
JoJo has been very nurturing, much like Ben describes Mrs. Higgins.
Maybe after JoJo lets her guard down, there are surprises in store?

After the Chantal & Brooks foilers anything is possible with this franchise. I just remember some posters on here really building the case for Des & Chris and it turns out they were right all along. Im not saying I'm right in any of this, but just putting it out there as I find the Ben & JoJo edit an interesting one.

Some have discussed the possibility of JoJo taking herself out at F3? Has that been done before on The Bachelor? MF would love that and so would all the female empowerment junkies out there. That would leave Caila as the F2 that Ben slips the ILY to & maybe they will make a case for that to occur moving forward?

But yet still, there a few things that say Lauren is totally IT. He does act differently around Lauren, or at least it seems different in the EDIT. He's done a few special things for Lauren, too (the picture of thier first time together, the walk through Mex City).
And Lauren's SM activity or lack there of (no promos, guarded, detached) make the strongest case for her as F1 other than the spoiler.

I agree, AC, with this franchise anything can happen. I skipped down the Des/Brooks primrose path, buying the love story they were presenting hook, line and sinker. There were subtle hints that it was Chris in the end, but every time I saw something that I questioned, I could easily dismiss it because of the love story that I wanted to see. I just hope everyone is willing to keep their eyes and ears open to whatever might not fit with the story that is being presented at this time and accept his choice whoever it might be. I was buying the spoiler totally at first. It just seemed so obvious. So obvious that it has made me try to look at this from different angles so I am not "blindsided" again. I would have to say, if Ben had to choose someone at this point, I don't see how it could be anyone other than LaurenB. He is smitten. But, with that said, I do see the LB relationship beginning to plateau and the JoJo relationship starting to take wings. They also presented the problem to overcome Monday night. Will JoJo let her walls down to let herself fall in love with the guy that worries that he might be unloveable. JMO, but I think it's still up in the air how this might end up.

Did RS ever get the Des spoiler ending correct before the FRC? I know in some seasons when he got it wrong initially, he switched to the correct outcome close to the end?
I don't see LB's relationship plateau'ing at all. I see it heating up and evolving from the Disney pics for next week's HTD.
It is possible they are spinning Jojo's story to make her more of a game changer (her walls coming down, he's investing more because of it), maybe? Not ruling out the possibility he picks Jojo (anything can happen because we are privy to so much less than what actually transpires), but I do think I heard somewhere that Ben and Lauren's relationship gets even better to the end of the show. I do want to see them establish a friendship, but that can come later as they get to know each other. SO much is at stake right now, especially for Lauren! I think it is a minor miracle that anyone can let their guard down and not be totally paranoid, second guessers on this show.
Didn't we see Jojo say "I won't be sure until I see Ben get down on one knee?" Not sure she lets down her walls enough.
Ben doesn't have a very good poker face, even for the cameras.

I do feel like if Brooks didn't eliminate himself, Des would have picked him.
It would have been a HUGE mistake because she and Chris are perfect for each other (blessing in disguise).

Lauren isn't eliminating herself, she probably can't wait to marry Ben!

by tennischick80 Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:03 pm

MVMom39forever wrote:I see Ben and Lauren as being so giddy in love, and it appears to be mutual. The two can't stop smiling around each other. I don't know about the friendship foundation, but does it really matter for the purpose of this show?? The two of them can't keep their hands or lips off each other and that's all Ben is thinking about just as many leads before him.

Whereas I can see Ben earning his Bachelor paycheck, especially with Jo Jo and Caila. It seems like he is tap dancing as fast as he can to get them to fall for him. He is pleading with them and they both are playing coy.

I am really curious to watch how Jo Jo and Caila progress to dropping the I love you to Ben. In many ways, these next episodes seem more about determining the next Bachelorette then the f1. The body language in last episode seemed forced to me

Just like I never saw Brooks that into Des(and Chris was all in), I just don't see either Caila, Amanda or Jo Jo that into Ben. They may say they are on the couch with other girls or in ITMs. But it's not popping on the screen IMHO. Not yet at least.

Right on! Very astute observations...IA.

by Darcy II Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:04 pm

Agentcurls made some great points. I feel as though JoJo has had a few hurdles to get
over and now the issue with her hometown, whereas with LaurenB - with the exception
of the "not herself" story - it has pretty much been smooth sailing. The hints of Ben
being himself/feeling calm around JoJo, along with the "Mrs. Higgins" jersey - which
to me was an "interesting" touch.

On the other hand - we have the ladies mentioning for the past few episodes that it is all about LaurenB (since the Pig Swimming Group Date) - which to me makes it just
too obvious - almost throwing it out there - "it's LaurenB!" In my humble opinion, there
just seems to be more of an all around connection with JoJo - but as always - it could
just be the edit.

by agentcurls Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:31 pm

MVMom39forever wrote:I see Ben and Lauren as being so giddy in love, and it appears to be mutual. The two can't stop smiling around each other. I don't know about the friendship foundation, but does it really matter for the purpose of this show?? The two of them can't keep their hands or lips off each other and that's all Ben is thinking about just as many leads before him.

Whereas I can see Ben earning his Bachelor paycheck, especially with Jo Jo and Caila. It seems like he is tap dancing as fast as he can to get them to fall for him. He is pleading with them and they both are playing coy.

I am really curious to watch how Jo Jo and Caila progress to dropping the I love you to Ben. In many ways, these next episodes seem more about determining the next Bachelorette then the f1. The body language in last episode seemed forced to me

Just like I never saw Brooks that into Des(and Chris was all in), I just don't see either Caila, Amanda or Jo Jo that into Ben. They may say they are on the couch with other girls or in ITMs. But it's not popping on the screen IMHO. Not yet at least.

I think JoJo def put some brakes on after the pig-swimming date because she saw how LaurBen were connecting.
But prior to that, when you look back at their time in LA, Vegas, & Mex City, JoJo was being quite nurturing and affectionate with Ben. On the helicopter ride especially and during some of their 1-on-1 time during group dates she is running her fingers through his hair, etc. If you're not into BenJo, then you may have missed that.
We'll see how it goes from here. I agree that as the season progressed, Caila & JoJo made it just a little harder for Ben to sail off into the sunset with his cherished Lauren.
though.

I am barely negating the spoiler. I have a strong tendency to believe it. But I like to analyze the "what ifs" for fun. I guess my imagination may have gotten the best of me because this season pointing straight to Lauren is kind of boring. A real deal love story would be kinda nice, too, in the end.

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