The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - NO SPOILERS - Discussion

Katiebelle wrote:

nothatgirl wrote:

Katiebelle wrote:The FS dates actually occurred C, JJ then L?

Ok - that changes things - Might have to think on that one for a bit.

As another unspoiled poster I wouldn't want to put any money on the outcome - maybe after LCDs. I thought Lauren was a clear F1 but the ILYs to JoJo has thrown me for a loop.

There has been a discussion in previous posts about the thoughts and feelings of the F2.

IMO - we won't really know what they are until we watch ATFR. Staying unspoiled means that I haven't looked on social media to see what they are portraying.

However, we can't guarantee that the F2 found closure with his IYU at all.

They could have thought what does she have that I don't, what am I missing that he needs... in fact I can think of hundreds questions that could be running through her mind.

I just hope that the F2 gets to express how she feels at ATFR and get some closure - whether it's giving him a good telling off or accepting and understanding his reasons for not picking her.

And you never know.. maybe he picks both and is currently dating the two of them!

Once you've gathered your thoughts, I'd love to hear how/if that changes things for you!

Ok my head's still spinning with that bit of news but I've brought in the washing and folded it while having a little muse.

After the HTDs, as much as I like JJ, I thought L was probably the front runner for F1. The way he looks and connects with her, IMO, is pretty intense. Yes there is definitely some infatuation there and "I've got a crush on you" stuff going on but their shared interests, common backgrounds and similar easy going personalities would give them a good start to a successful relationship. And I'm pretty sure he could see that as well.  Also I saw him put JJ more and more into that confidant and friend role.

Which is why I was not overly surprised with his ILY to L and extremely surprised (just look at my posts while I was watching) with his ILY to JJ.

Now that I know that he actually said ILY to JJ first I need to question everything.  Why would they change the order anyway? Who does it benefit?

Maybe there was more romance with JJ than I saw - the TPTB manipulates the edit and thus the story to show what they want us to see. Are they
showing just the best moments with L and the worst moments with JJ?

But whether the TPTB have manipulated the story to push us in a particular direction is a whole other discussion - what you are asking is what I think of Ben saying ILY to JJ first.

When I first read that JJs date was before Ls what popped into my head was how does this affect L. I had thought I was impartial but I've just realised that I am a Lauren fan - although I'd still like to be friends with JoJo - any girl that can rock a unicorn head would be fun to hang out with!

So with my Lauren fan hat on maybe he was unsure of L's feelings for him and once JJ gave him that reassurance... actually, as I'm typing this I've concluded.. I have no clue! Might need to sleep on it or wait until I see them all at LCD. Which is probably why I can't wait for the ATFR so he can explain himself to both girls and me (obviously the most important person   )

What are your thoughts?

I too am a Lauren fan, but, I found the date very boring until the sofa and ILYs. That moment on the sofa was the most romantic of the season IMO, really entense, no words, just pure adoration for one another, I said to myself " she is the one".

But, then he meets up with Jojo,  they really have a great time. I like their date much better. By morning, he had said ILY to JJ as much as L, by the time he feeds her watermellon, pulls her near him in bed, he looks at her with such love and admiration, play the "you re cute" game, kisses her face, neck, she calls him "babe", I am screeming "OMG, he is in love with her too." Wow!

At this point, I think he will be happy with either one of the ladies, but I am leaning more towards L bcs I see a love intertwine btw them, and think JJ family is a little scarey and dramatic, which might scare Ben.

Mia,  I listened to at least a half a dozen different clips of the ILY video for a really clear audio to try and discern what Ben responded to JoJo's query at the waterfall about "Are you allowed to say ILY"??  To the best of my hearing ability it sounded like Ben responded "I'm not" but he could possibly have said "I thought."  Two very different meanings but unfortunately the water sounds muffle even the clearest audio.  I lean toward "I'm not" but I can't 100% certain.

Amazing opinions!! All of you

emusha wrote:enjoying the unspoiled thread!

I wonder how others think -- the ben we saw in these two dates was very diff

In jojo's date he seemed present, happy, free, able to talk to difficult subjects without dwelling or having a cloud over his head.

to me watching his date with lauren - all those things ^ and his freedom of being wasn't there. he seemed a bit more 'down' emotional, quiet and not as freely affectionate.

i'm not sure how that will change with his dates with the two women in LCD etc. but for now it looks to me like this 2 person ilu is affecting him....

p.s esp if we stick to the  premise the he deeply cared for both women and would be concerned about their emotional wellbeing

IA with your assessment. That's one of the biggest reasons why I think he will pick Jojo.

If you think about the order of the FS dates being switched (if this is indeed true)...Jojo's occurred second but aired third, and Lauren's occurred third but aired second, I think that supports my guess that Jojo is F1. I think after the "high" of Jojo's date, and his ILY reciprocation, 2 things may have happened.

1) TPTB may have gotten pissed off at him for saying ILY to Jojo and applied pressure on him to play along with Lauren, and this led him to reciprocate ILY with her. Not that I don't think he does feel love of some degree towards Lauren, but I just believe it wasn't as strong of a feeling of love that he feels for Jojo at this point. It's not out of the realm of possibilities that TPTB played mindgames with Ben and applied a little pressure. I don't think a single lead has ever escaped playing the role of puppet from time to time on this show. I do believe that many of the VOs that we heard during Jojo's waterfall portion of the date were VOs that were recorded AFTER that week was over and possibly AFTER the entire show had wrapped. I believe that we have talked about how they "fake" VOs all of the time, even to the point of writing out cue cards and having the lead read directly what is written for them. Am I wrong about this? So, in my mind, a lot of those 'conflicted' thoughts may have been spliced and planted into those clips.

2) A bit of unease, IMO, was showing during Lauren's date. This would make even more sense if the date actually occurred AFTER Jojo's. I think he enjoyed his (mostly) platonic turtle time with Lauren and that portion of the date was happy enough. Although body language had them miles apart at times. Why? If he could feel like he wanted to sit close beside Jojo, why wouldn't he want to or be drawn to sit close by Lauren if she were F1? On the beach towel, at the pre-dinner concert, at the dinner table, even in the FS. There was very little touching. Why? I think it's because he had already fallen hard for Jojo and we could see him begin to put the brakes on with Lauren. Yes, he reciprocated her ILYs (which I've alread discussed in earlier posts) but just look at some of the expressions on his face during those scenes. Happy or serious? I see serious, like his brain is processing thoughts and feeling simultaneously. Aka I don't think he was fully feeling it. And I do think that if the girl of your dreams is telling you that she loves you, you'd probably act more in the moment. I know, I know, some of it could be editing, but so much editing, IMO! Look at the morning after and goodbyes between the two women. With Lauren he sits in a deck chair and says I'll miss you. With Jojo he plays the "you're cuter" game and nuzzles her neck on the bed, and says ILY as he walks away. I think this all points to Jojo as F1 and it all makes sense IF Jojo's date actually occurred before Lauren's date.

I also think that by airing Lauren's date second, it gives the illusion that Ben said ILY to Lauren and then to Jojo. Which is something that can temper the viewer anger towards Ben If he picks Jojo. Because IF he does pick Jojo as F1, people will ask 'Why did he tell both Lauren and Jojo ILY?' To which the average viewer can then say, 'Well, he said it to Lauren on the second date but then he realllly said it to Jojo on the 3rd date. I guess he was still confused on Lauren's date and didn't really know for sure until he went on the 3rd date with Jojo.' But, if they aired Jojo 2nd and then Lauren's 3rd, with the ILYs said after he had fully fallen for Jojo, viewers wouldn't be quite so understanding. They'd dislike him more, IMO.

I get a totally opposite read from what the above posters got from seeing the same scenes. I thought he was more relaxed with JoJo because I think, he knows he is not going to pick her. He is not as invested in his feelings with JoJo. I think he thinks she is fun, sexy and understands reality TV, but that is all I see. His ILY's and mannerism with Lauren he maybe is holding back, in my view because he is trying to finish the show. It really matters to him that Lauren likes/loves him. All just totally my opinion and I have no idea who he picks. I think he should pick Lauren and I think they have more of a chance for a real match. But my life will go on either way. Also Ben seemed really tired the last episode!

Eviebloom wrote:I get a totally opposite read from what the above posters got from seeing the same scenes.  I thought he was more relaxed with JoJo because I think, he knows he is not going to pick her.  He is not as invested in his feelings with JoJo. I think he thinks she is fun, sexy and understands reality TV, but that is all I see.  His ILY's and mannerism with Lauren he maybe is holding back, in my view because he is trying to finish the show.  It really matters to him that Lauren likes/loves him.  All just totally my opinion and I have no idea who he picks.  I think he should pick Lauren and I think they have more of a chance for a real match.   But my life will go on either way.  Also Ben seemed really tired the last episode!  

Hi Eviebloom. I have no idea who he picked, and like you said, my life will go on either way, too. Since I've avoided all media and spoiled threads, I don't have a lot of info on either Lauren or Jojo. I assume since you are unspoiled also, that you don't know a lot about the girls either. So, with all that said, why do you think that Ben and Lauren have more of a chance for a real match? What do you see that perhaps I don't?

MiaHawk wrote:

Eviebloom wrote:I get a totally opposite read from what the above posters got from seeing the same scenes.  I thought he was more relaxed with JoJo because I think, he knows he is not going to pick her.  He is not as invested in his feelings with JoJo. I think he thinks she is fun, sexy and understands reality TV, but that is all I see.  His ILY's and mannerism with Lauren he maybe is holding back, in my view because he is trying to finish the show.  It really matters to him that Lauren likes/loves him.  All just totally my opinion and I have no idea who he picks.  I think he should pick Lauren and I think they have more of a chance for a real match.   But my life will go on either way.  Also Ben seemed really tired the last episode!  

Hi Eviebloom.   I have no idea who he picked, and like you said, my life will go on either way, too. Since I've avoided all media and spoiled threads, I don't have a lot of info on either Lauren or Jojo. I assume since you are unspoiled also, that you don't know a lot about the girls either. So, with all that said, why do you think that Ben and Lauren have more of a chance for a real match? What do you see that perhaps I don't?

I am spoiled, but I do not believe anything I read until it really happens. So I need to make sure you know that upfront. I would like next season to be unspoiled. I do not read rag magazines, but I have seen ideas on the internet. I have been on other threads. So is it still okay for me to answer this? I would not want to unknowingly say anything. I do not believe the spoilers, I wait to see what happens.

I've been thinking about Ben's 2 ILYs and the order they were said and how it affects his relationships and I keep on going round and round in circles.

We will probably never know what the factors, feelings and considerations behind his 2 IYUs are. Were they reassurance, sentiment, emotion, passion, hormones, TPTB manipulation? A combination of some or all?

We might not even get the full answer at ATFR.

What I do believe is that Lauren IRL is more suited to him. I am totally unspoiled but from what I have seen on the show, from their conversations and the way they interact, they seem to be on similar "wavelengths" - if that makes sense?

I also do believe that the family situation of both girls will have an impact on Ben's decision. And unfortunately JJs brothers did her no favours on that front. IMO JJs family seemed more "Hollywood" and Lauren's family were more "Middle America" which is a better fit for Ben and his own family.

BUT this is JMO!

BTW - I'm absolutely loving the influx of posters and opinions on this unspoiled thread. It's feeling like quite a little cosy clan now

Katiebelle wrote:I've been thinking about Ben's 2 ILYs and the order they were said and how it affects his relationships and I keep on going round and round in circles.

We will probably never know what the factors, feelings and considerations behind his 2 IYUs are. Were they reassurance, sentiment, emotion, passion, hormones, TPTB manipulation? A combination of some or all?

We might not even get the full answer at ATFR.

What I do believe is that Lauren IRL is more suited to him. I am totally unspoiled but from what I have seen on the show, from their conversations and the way they interact, they seem to be on similar "wavelengths" - if that makes sense?

I also do believe that the family situation of both girls will have an impact on Ben's decision. And unfortunately JJs brothers did her no favours on that front. IMO JJs family seemed more "Hollywood" and Lauren's family were more "Middle America" which is a better fit for Ben and his own family.

BUT this is JMO!

BTW - I'm absolutely loving the influx of posters and opinions on this unspoiled thread. It's feeling like quite a little cosy clan now  

That is also my feeling.. that IRL they are much more suited and their love is more of a love match... again.. only my opinion.

I'd love to try going unspoiled again. The last time I tried was during The Farmer's season. I got so lonely in the unspoiled thread that I gave it up after episode 3 or 4. If I knew people were going to stick around here for the next 'Ette season, I might give it a go again. The only problem is I like to use screencaps. Would you guys be interested in that...or would you rather just be talking about the edit and how you perceive the relationships forming?

Eviebloom wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:

Eviebloom wrote:I get a totally opposite read from what the above posters got from seeing the same scenes.  I thought he was more relaxed with JoJo because I think, he knows he is not going to pick her.  He is not as invested in his feelings with JoJo. I think he thinks she is fun, sexy and understands reality TV, but that is all I see.  His ILY's and mannerism with Lauren he maybe is holding back, in my view because he is trying to finish the show.  It really matters to him that Lauren likes/loves him.  All just totally my opinion and I have no idea who he picks.  I think he should pick Lauren and I think they have more of a chance for a real match.   But my life will go on either way.  Also Ben seemed really tired the last episode!  

Hi Eviebloom.   I have no idea who he picked, and like you said, my life will go on either way, too. Since I've avoided all media and spoiled threads, I don't have a lot of info on either Lauren or Jojo. I assume since you are unspoiled also, that you don't know a lot about the girls either. So, with all that said, why do you think that Ben and Lauren have more of a chance for a real match? What do you see that perhaps I don't?

I am spoiled, but I do not believe anything I read until it really happens.  So I need to make sure you know that upfront.  I would like next season to be unspoiled.  I do not read rag magazines, but I have seen ideas on the internet.  I have been on other threads.  So is it still okay for me to answer this?  I would not want to unknowingly say anything.  I do not believe the spoilers, I wait to see what happens.  

Ok, thank you for telling me you are spoiled. I think you answered this question adequately in your response to Katiebelle. I don't want to spoil anything here for myself or others. Thanks.

Litta123 wrote:I'd love to try going unspoiled again. The last time I tried was during The Farmer's season. I got so lonely in the unspoiled thread that I gave it up after episode 3 or 4. If I knew people were going to stick around here for the next 'Ette season, I might give it a go again. The only problem is I like to use screencaps. Would you guys be interested in that...or would you rather just be talking about the edit and how you perceive the relationships forming?

Do you mean using a screencap (a photo of the aired show) to analyze visual data (like shadows, clothing, etc)? I would think of that as sleuthing without having the benefit of knowing who won via a spoiler! haha  AKA it would be old fashioned sleuthing. IMO that is not spoiling anything. But that is just my opinion.

I tried a couple of different seasons to go unspoiled, and I always gave in due to loneliness and feeling like I was missing out on all the fun. This season I've been very busy, so keeping away from the board was kind of easy...up until now. Now I want to participate but I still don't want to get spoiled. The finale is one week away, I figure I should stay unspoiled til the bitter/sweet end. I'm no where near as fanatical about this show anymore, which does make being unspoiled a bit easier. But, dang, I feel like I cannot look at ANY threads other than this one. I'm even afraid to read the ones about past couples and contestants for fear of reading something in those.  The paranoia is getting to me!!!!