The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - NO SPOILERS - Discussion

Katiebelle wrote:

emusha wrote:I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on why Ben did do 2 ILY's this season.

For me I've been stuck on his "unlovablity" issue as a possible additional impetus

I really have no idea what he was thinking. I actually yelled at my computer "Ben! What are you doing?".

I thought throughout the season that he was a little unsure of Lauren's feelings for him - and he did say that he thought she was too good for him. So I kind of understand the joy and relief he felt when she told him she was in love with him - and he just wanted to give her the same validation back.

What a really do not understand is this. He must have been on such a high after his date with Lauren. She loves him and he loves her. How could he jump from this "perfect" night to then getting all smoochy by the waterfall and say (quite sincerely IMO) I love you, not once but I think it was 4 times, to JoJo.

He must be very good at compartmentalising his relationships - something I have always struggled to do.

Maybe his immaturity and inexperience allowed him to get too swept up in the moment without thinking through the consequences? How many serious relationships has he had?

If he thinks he's unlovable and two women have said they loved him maybe he was so happy and reassured that he just wanted to give them back that same reassurance, not realising the ramifications for both women later.

Maybe he was thinking with his other head? It must be pretty exciting for a 26 year old to be surrounded by so many gorgeous women who think you are the "bees knees".

Maybe TPTB were playing mind games with him to keep his relationship with Lauren off balance - suggesting that Jojo is the one for him. Although I highly doubt it.

So - I'm sorry - I have no idea what was going on in his head when he was saying ILY to two different women - but he better give a very good explanation at the ATFR!

I think he said ILY to both because he is really in love with one and wanted to respond to her with the "ILY" when she told him she loved him and in order to do that he would have to say ILY to another to keep viewers in suspense.

Maggenzm wrote:
So, I commend him for treating each relationship as the only one he has at the time, and returning their love when he felt it. Isn't that the premise of the show?
IMO, he didn't make a mistake, this is how it should be. Everyone should say how they feel, when they feel it, and not just the F1,2or3.

Like I said earlier, we all know that there is a difference between being "in love" and "committing to a marriage".  I do believe that Ben wants to find a woman to love and then marry. To me, reaching the "ready to commit" stage requires: 1) the emotional feelings of being deeply and truly "in love" with the person (admiration, attraction, chemistry) and 2) compatibility for cohabitation (personalities, communication styles, lifestyles, views on things like family/children) and 3) a mutual desire to uphold the contract of marriage through better, worse, richer, poorer, sickness, health, til death do you part.

Number 2 above is part innate and part learned. We have personalities that we're born with, but we can learn to improve our communication skills and learn to compromise on things in order to peacefully live together. It is mostly a mindset, and what I would refer to mostly as the "things on paper" that we like about our partner (they are funny, don't spend too much money, have a stable job to pay the bills, they want children, allow us to be autonomous, etc, etc). These are things gleaned through conversations (and then through observation and trial and error of daily living). The most that the lead on this show can do is talk to the contestants and get their views, habits, and self-reflections. (The real trial and error of daily living won't come until after the show is done). This is a mental process, a collection of data, and for the most part it is not deeply emotional. This data collection can be done at the meet and greet, on a group date, and during 1-on-1 time.

Number 3 above is all elbow grease. It's a commitment made on a day to day basis to put the relationship at the top of the priority list and work for it. This has absolutely nothing to do with this show, IMO.

Which leaves number 1 above to be discussed. Development of deep and true emotions of love toward a person. To me, this happens to a great extent in the quiet moments alone away from other people and distractions. When you glance at them as they cook dinner. When you see a teardrop form while watching a poignant movie with them. When you hear the joy in their voice talking about a new project. When you feel the static of chemistry when you stand close to them. When their scent turns you on. The emotional connection is mostly subconscious. It doesn't require mental concentration, rather it require stillness of thought and total immersion in the moment. It requires an open heart, the turning off of emotional circuit breakers (fear, overthinking, shutting down your heart), and the willingness to feel, reallllly feel. It requires you to be fully present and to shut out all other things (or people) for long moments at a time.

I don't fault Ben for being "too much in the moment" with each girl, because I believe that being completely in the moment is what is necessary to make those true and deep emotional connections. I don't feel that one can truly fall in love without getting into those "flow" moments where nothing else matters, nothing else exists, when time and space just melt away. And because of that, I think that Ben's ILYs were born out of a good place, a loving place, never meant to confuse or hurt anyone.

Of course, this is a show and someone will get hurt. But, IRL I don't think that Ben would have ever gotten himself into the predicament of having 2 girls fall in love with him and vice versa. He just did what he needed to do in order to fall in love. The only glitch is that he is on the stupid show and now he will have to choose only 1 girl.

You can play Monday morning quarterback all you like and hindsight is 20/20. Maybe he thinks he would have done things differently. But I question whether that was possible for him. Part of falling in love is expressing that love and (hopefully) experiencing the excitement, joy, and ecstasy of it being returned. Love is an action, and as such, it needs to be expressed. Verbally and non-verbally. I guess I consider myself to be a very verbal person, haha, so I value verbal expressions of love a lot. Maybe Ben does, too. Think of it this way: A songwriter writes down on paper a beautiful song. That's nice. But the real magic happens when a voice brings the song to life. Same thing for love. It's great to feel love in your heart for someone, but it is even more powerful when you tell them or show them your love. I think he wanted to share that with each of the women. Share their ILYs and say them back. I don't really have a problem with that. It may have even been necessary for him in the process of sorting out his feelings. Kind of like listening to the song he wrote in his heart. Which tune did he like better? I guess we will soon find out.
JMO.

Wow what a great post.

Jolena wrote:

Katiebelle wrote:

emusha wrote:I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on why Ben did do 2 ILY's this season.

For me I've been stuck on his "unlovablity" issue as a possible additional impetus

I really have no idea what he was thinking. I actually yelled at my computer "Ben! What are you doing?".

I thought throughout the season that he was a little unsure of Lauren's feelings for him - and he did say that he thought she was too good for him. So I kind of understand the joy and relief he felt when she told him she was in love with him - and he just wanted to give her the same validation back.

What a really do not understand is this. He must have been on such a high after his date with Lauren. She loves him and he loves her. How could he jump from this "perfect" night to then getting all smoochy by the waterfall and say (quite sincerely IMO) I love you, not once but I think it was 4 times, to JoJo.

He must be very good at compartmentalising his relationships - something I have always struggled to do.

Maybe his immaturity and inexperience allowed him to get too swept up in the moment without thinking through the consequences? How many serious relationships has he had?

If he thinks he's unlovable and two women have said they loved him maybe he was so happy and reassured that he just wanted to give them back that same reassurance, not realising the ramifications for both women later.

Maybe he was thinking with his other head? It must be pretty exciting for a 26 year old to be surrounded by so many gorgeous women who think you are the "bees knees".

Maybe TPTB were playing mind games with him to keep his relationship with Lauren off balance - suggesting that Jojo is the one for him. Although I highly doubt it.

So - I'm sorry - I have no idea what was going on in his head when he was saying ILY to two different women - but he better give a very good explanation at the ATFR!

I think he said ILY to both because he is really in love with one and wanted to respond to her with the "ILY" when she told him she loved him and in order to do that he would have to say ILY to another to keep viewers in suspense.

I've thought about this theory, too. But.... And remember that I am totally unspoiled...

IF he had only said ILY to one woman, the editors would have been able to edit it out and the viewers would be none the wiser. They wouldn't show him saying ILY to just one woman, bc we'd all assume that she was the F1, and they might lose viewers. Some viewers would not stay tuned if they knew the winner. (Which completely contradicts all of the viewers who are spoiled and watch til the end, I know.) I think it was only bc Ben did say ILY to 2 women that they showed it to us. Controversy!!! TPTB love that!!!

It's "against show rules" for him to give away the ending, aka say ILY. But, do any of us believe that Ben was the very first lead out of 20 seasons who broke that rule (on or off camera)? I don't believe that. I'd bet money that they have film footage of a lead or two saying ILY to their F1 but they never aired it. IMO.

I do have a question for the sleuthers: When Jojo spoke to Ben at the waterfalls and said ILY to him, he then says "I love you too". Then we see Jojo make a face of disbelief and she says something like "Can you say that?" (meaning, isn't that against the show rules?) To which Ben replies something. And I couldn't hear or make out what he said. I THINK he said "I don't care", but I really am dying to know what he actually said. If anyone knows, can you please reply? TIA.

Totally agree Mia!! What a wonderful post! Spot on too imo!!

MiaHawk wrote:

Jolena wrote:

Katiebelle wrote:

I really have no idea what he was thinking. I actually yelled at my computer "Ben! What are you doing?".

I thought throughout the season that he was a little unsure of Lauren's feelings for him - and he did say that he thought she was too good for him. So I kind of understand the joy and relief he felt when she told him she was in love with him - and he just wanted to give her the same validation back.

What a really do not understand is this. He must have been on such a high after his date with Lauren. She loves him and he loves her. How could he jump from this "perfect" night to then getting all smoochy by the waterfall and say (quite sincerely IMO) I love you, not once but I think it was 4 times, to JoJo.

He must be very good at compartmentalising his relationships - something I have always struggled to do.

Maybe his immaturity and inexperience allowed him to get too swept up in the moment without thinking through the consequences? How many serious relationships has he had?

If he thinks he's unlovable and two women have said they loved him maybe he was so happy and reassured that he just wanted to give them back that same reassurance, not realising the ramifications for both women later.

Maybe he was thinking with his other head? It must be pretty exciting for a 26 year old to be surrounded by so many gorgeous women who think you are the "bees knees".

Maybe TPTB were playing mind games with him to keep his relationship with Lauren off balance - suggesting that Jojo is the one for him. Although I highly doubt it.

So - I'm sorry - I have no idea what was going on in his head when he was saying ILY to two different women - but he better give a very good explanation at the ATFR!

I think he said ILY to both because he is really in love with one and wanted to respond to her with the "ILY" when she told him she loved him and in order to do that he would have to say ILY to another to keep viewers in suspense.

I've thought about this theory, too. But....  And remember that I am totally unspoiled...  

IF he had only said ILY to one woman, the editors would have been able to edit it out and the viewers would be none the wiser. They wouldn't show him saying ILY to just one woman, bc we'd all assume that she was the F1, and they might lose viewers. Some viewers would not stay tuned if they knew the winner. (Which completely contradicts all of the viewers who are spoiled and watch til the end, I know.) I think it was only bc Ben did say ILY to 2 women that they showed it to us. Controversy!!!  TPTB love that!!!  

It's "against show rules" for him to give away the ending, aka say ILY. But, do any of us believe that Ben was the very first lead out of 20 seasons who broke that rule (on or off camera)? I don't believe that. I'd bet money that they have film footage of a lead or two saying ILY to their F1 but they never aired it. IMO.

I do have a question for the sleuthers: When Jojo spoke to Ben at the waterfalls and said ILY to him, he then says "I love you too". Then we see Jojo make a face of disbelief and she says something like "Can you say that?" (meaning, isn't that against the show rules?) To which Ben replies something. And I couldn't hear or make out what he said. I THINK he said "I don't care", but I really am dying to know what he actually said. If anyone knows, can you please reply? TIA.

I think he said " I don't care". Im also trying to figure out what he was saying to Lauren just before she told him she is completely in love with him. SHe is speaking in a PI over him. If anyone can read lips and tell us what he was saying I would love to know. TIA

Just a note about the ILYs and rule breaking: Brad W. told Emily that he was falling in love with her too in the FSD. He hadn't said that to Chantal in hers. They used the previews of the finale and the history of Brad choosing no one to keep interest: Would Emily say "yes"? Would Brad pick anyone?

I really think that Ben said "I love you" because of something he said in episode one:"I want to find the woman that I can say “I love you” and I know that it’s true and that it’s real."

I also agree with emusha's reflection that Ben was getting hot-and-cold at times from both Jo and Lauren, so he invested in different ways in both of them, fearing that at the end, one of these girls might walk out on him. I think he wasn't expecting both of them to tell him that they loved him.

If it wasn't genuine, then we're left with that Ben was doing the show's bidding in that they encouraged him to say it. TPTB knew that both girls were reluctant to open up and fall with Ben unless they received more validation from him. What better way to do that than to break the rules on "I love you?" We witnessed the free fall for both of the girls.

We'll get the real story next week. If we can survive that long.

As an unspoiled viewer this season, I know that I might be completely wrong about his F1. Hey, listen, even as a spoiled viewer in past seasons I have felt like I was watching a completely different show than half the viewers. Sometimes I have chosen to live in my parallel universe and NOT believe the spoilers (Emily/J/A), to think it might be just a foiler. This season I have heard no spoilers, no foilers, nothing at all. I've been off the grid and completely in my own mind. It's a strange place to be.

At this point, I believe he will choose Jojo (barring another questionable family moment). With the issue of saying ILY to both women, I must say that for his own safety I hope he did pick Jojo. I cannot imagine how angry Jojo's brothers would be knowing that Ben said ILY to Jojo only to reject her at the end. I think that he might be able to explain this to Jojo, but the brothers not so much. (On a completely different note: Jojo's brothers were very handsome, IMO. )

Mia, so proud of you for rocking the unspoiled world. I've done it a few times with different seasons--I've never made it to the end.

The unspoiled view is truly refreshing. This thread is one of my faves on the board.

Hi, @maggenzm

veg_out wrote:Mia, so proud of you for rocking the unspoiled world. I've done it a few times with different seasons--I've never made it to the end.

The unspoiled view is truly refreshing. This thread is one of my faves on the board.

I've watched this show since season 1, and the best part of it now for me is this board.
I've participated in this board since Emily's season, and the best part of it for me has always been participating in the discussions.
I've tried to go unspoiled before, but the lack of participating in the discussions just wore me down. I gave up and entered the threads and the discussions.
NOT reading the threads and NOT writing in them is a HUGE sacrifice for me. Which is what has drawn me to this unspoiled thread. I'm going cabin-fever in my own head!
I KNOW it's difficult for somebody whose spoiled to come into the unspoiled thread and post. I've tried it in the past and I wasn't very good at it.
So, I thank those who pop in to answer a question or to have a conversation. I appreciate that a lot.

I do have another question: Did the FDs occur in the same order that they were aired: C then L than J? TIA.

Mia
PS VegOut, LOVE your avi! Still cracks me up!

Hey, Mia. After only watching one episode,  the  htd,  unspoiled, I  came to the same conclusion as you. I'm   curious to see if my impression is correct.

I believe the FS dates actually occurred Caila, Jojo, then Lauren.

And, loving the non-spoiled analysis. I'm going to try and do it with you guys for the Bachelor next year!